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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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I actually chased down the Chinese company that was advertising ouds back then. As I expected, they lied and said they had them, but then admitted
they had merely taken photos of existing ouds and they told me they could easily deliver instruments "like that" in quantity if I was prepared to
place an order. It IS just a matter of time. I have greatest respect for makers like Sukar who are producing solid "volkswagen" ouds like his Model 1
in batches at reasonable prices, applying techniques he developed making high-end instruments like his Model 211, 212 and 14. I was very interested to
learn that Sukar refuses to use the costliest woods, it reminds me of what Aymara-Chris once said about the ecological implications of so many
boutique luthiers using rare woods. We will see how all this works out.
It's unfortunate that Western companies have equipped the Chinese State with all the tools and computerized milling machines they needed to compete
with and wipe out their own industries. At least when I purchased several excellent Chinese electric bases inexpensively, I was pretty sure I wasn't
putting any locally-producing electric instrument makers out of work, as there were none left. 
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Btw if someone here is tempted by the idea of a fretless 6 string electric bass, and yes it's very "Oudy", these guys are very good to do business
with, they will refund 100% including shipping (!) if you don't like an instrument. Their short scale 4 string fretless SX basses are very sweet at
$110, I got their $139 short scale 4 string "jaguar style" SX fretless and it's my favorite bass, like it better than my vintage $10,000 Fender
Precision. They are low on inventory at the moment I see, but this is a very nice one, though a little more. The quality and QA on the Brice brand is
excellent.
http://www.rondomusic.com/hxb406natspfl.html
Kurt is the owner, he's adored by the bass community.
http://www.rondomusic.com
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  | | At least when I purchased several excellent Chinese electric bases inexpensively, I was pretty sure I wasn't putting any locally-producing electric
instrument makers out of work, as there were none left. |
Does that mean Gibson, Fender & Co. are producing everything in China too?
But back to topic ... I fear, that when the oud gets popular enough in the Western world, that the market might get flooded with Chinese factory
ouds.
But what will be the result? I think, a few "small" luthery workshops will remain and only sell to the local arabic oud market. But what about the
famous luthiers? Will they survive?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara | I fear, that when the oud gets popular enough in the Western world, that the market might get flooded with Chinese factory ouds.
But what will be the result? I think, a few "small" luthery workshops will remain and only sell to the local arabic oud market. But what about the
famous luthiers? Will they survive? |
just look at what has happened to the guitar market. . . the oud market will more or less replicate that - probably.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Yes. Gibson & Fender produce 95% (?) in China. Better ones in Korea and Mexico, and a few "prime" units in the US. The company management should
be fired, because the Chinese are proving that a modest investment in machinery could have worked. The capitalist idiots have no long term view and
they gave the first world away to China.
As the Chinese get better at it, the same factory is making instruments under various labels, so a SX bass is the same as a Fender/Squier. The Brice
instruments e.g. were being made in Korea as of 2 years ago, and they are better than the ordinary Gibsons and Fenders. Everything changes
unannounced.
The impact on ouds will play out, probably first on the electric ones.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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...that's because they have absolutely no nationalistic regard. Power and money are a global thing now, and the corperation is the new boss (or the
new Hitler depending on how you see it).
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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There is hope. Even the guitar market is still changing. All it takes is a "fad" like "unplugged" to dramatically change everything - who would have
thought that acoustic and "world" instruments would be so popular? Yet they are, and the oud is one of them.
Regardless of it's specific role in the Arab world, the (unquestionably just beginning) rise of the oud is happening on the world stage, not because
everyone recognizes it as a beautiful instrument (I wish), but because we are in and out of that stupid "organic music" phase -- so these are very
very complex interactions, not analogous to the bigger guitar market.
But because IF the oud becomes a mainstream instrument in pop music it will benefit Arab culture and politics in many ways, the promotion of the oud
during this (realistically) narrow window of opportunity (an opportunity caused by a naive and sentimental view of "natural instruments and folk
music" on the part of a large segment of the youth and young adult markets of Europe and the US), this opportunity, in any case, should be very
seriously exploited.
Anything that promotes its success (like even that "Arabian" label) should be embraced in the interest of the whole. That's how it is. The pricing
discussion has to be seen in that light as well.
We may come to similar points in relation to the Chinese problem, where the "greater good" might mean accepting some losses.
But not wanting to have your people and culture destroyed is not "nationalism". Accepting the lowest cost of labor performed by a population enslaved,
by a regime that aims to devour you, is just stupidity.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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How could they in a world of globalization? But Fernand is right, they are idiots nevertheless, because they are only interested in short term profit,
though they should know better from university.
As I said in the Jazz discussion before, to make Westerners interested in arabic music/instruments is a way to overcome Racism and bad political
propaganda, which is told them by CNN & Co. nowadays ... people learn, that there is more about the arabic world than terrosism and Islam ...
there are friendly people, an interesting culture, etc..
And there is even more ... what about the youth? In my region live many Turkish people and most of the young people mainly listen to Western charts
and Hip-Hop. Isn't there a similar trend in Turkey and other "arabic" countries?
Imagine a successful Hip-Hop band, that uses oud and darbuca instead of rhythm boxes and sound samples ... nearly all traditionalists would call that
crap, but the youth would automatically get more interested into their cultural roots.
Music is the language that overcomes borders 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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truth in what you say Chris, and it is this attitude of promoting peach thru learning about the cultures of other parts of the world has a lot to do
with why I went into Indian and Oriental music....
but the other side of the coin is that putting oriental sounds into western music can be little more than changing from chocolate to vanilla icing on
the Western Dominated cake. A bit like a small oriental spice tasted on totally WESTERN TERMS. Probably better than nothing. . . . .
but........
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I would call it a first start. Imagine someone, who starts getting interested in Jazz ... if he/she starts with "easy listening" Jazz it might be the
first step to further Jazz interest development. If the start would be Free Jazz, it might be the abrupt end of this interest 
I think with the introduction of Westerners to world music it's similar ... "baby steps" usually do work better 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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I was contacted on u2u by a member perhaps VERY carefully avoiding asking anything even remotely off-topic. The answer is: Without going into details,
a 6 string fretless bass and oud are somehow very similar and compatible. My post higher in this thread links to an excellent source for 6 string
fretless basses, namely Kurt at RondoMusic.com. They usually have a Douglas at $189. The $279 Brice is probably a better one. I see a $149 5 string
today. They refund even shipping if you don't like anything, and they have guitars, like a 12 string fretless.
Aymara: On the Jazz, I agree of course that a little exposure is better than none. But the issue that Edward was correctly identifying was whether
there is actually even a baby dose of Sharky musical content in these. What I was jokingly referring to as "crap" was the totally ersatz stuff, where
a minor scale and a ney sound (and maybe a belly dancer) are supposed to convey "the Arabian expanse", or other ethnic cliché. The only positive
"baby steps" in such cases might be exposing the bourgies to the sight of an oud.
But as recently duly beaten-up newcomers here who post too much, off-topic, in a culturally incorrect way, because we are deficient and seeking
recognition, and most importantly because we are "empty vessels", let us better keep quiet so our elders can have the "breathing room" to feed us
"official and tested" opinions at the approved rate.
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: mellow yellow
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Here's to empty vessels . may they become full to the brim
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
Registered: 1-20-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: g'oud
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I personally very much hope you and the rest of us will keep posting just as we all have. Keep rockin' and keep this GREAT FORUM ALIVE!
THANKS MIKE, YOU ROCK!
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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Thank you my friend,
I am the member that asked about those instruments and I really apreciate your help.
Best Regards
Spyros
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Branko
Oud Junkie
Posts: 138
Registered: 4-14-2006
Location: Perth, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: !?
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | .
we are deficient and seeking recognition, and most importantly because we are "empty vessels", let us better keep quiet so our elders can have the
"breathing room" to feed us "official and tested" opinions at the approved rate. |
fernandraynaud, I haven't seen anyone pointing you in the discussion on the topic of big effluent. Why that harsh self-assessment?
Ich bin ein Balkaner!
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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This is very misleading. All guitars that say "Gibson" on the headstock are made in the U.S. (with the exception of
counterfeits/forgeries/unauthorized copies, of which there are indeed a number made in China).
Epiphone indeed makes many guitars in China, but they are no more "Gibson" guitars than a Toyota is a Lexus. The best Epiphones are made in Japan,
while certain middle models are still made in Korea.
The majority of Fender guitars are made in Mexico and the US, although they do produce low-end guitars in a number of other countries, including China
and Singapore. They used to make terrific guitars in Japan, but I think that's stopped. Even some "Mexican" Fenders are made in the California
factory, depending on relative factory capacities at the time (they are fairly close to one another), although the instruments designated "Mexican"
are of lower-grade woods and finishes.
China is producing some great instruments (Eastman), though, and will doubtless get better.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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But Epiphone is still listed on the Gibson website. So it seems, it's still an entry level "sub-brand" like Squier for Fender.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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It's not a sub-brand in the same way that Squier is, since Squier is just a name Fender introduced for their cheaper guitars, much like Toyota and
Lexus, or Honda and Acura, etc.
Epiphone is an actual company that was later bought by the same company that owns Gibson.
From Wikipedia:
| Quote: | | The history of Epiphone started in 1873, in Smyrna, Ottoman Empire (now İzmir, Turkey), where Greek founder Anastasios Stathopoulos made his own
fiddles and lutes (oud, laouto). Stathopoulos moved to the United States of America in 1903, and continued to make his original instruments, as well
as mandolins, from Long Island City in Queens, New York. Anastasios died in 1915, and his son, Epaminondas, took over. After two years, the company
was known as The House Of Stathopoulos. Just after the end of World War I, the company started to make banjos. The company produced its Recording Line
of Banjos in 1924, and, four years later, took on the name of the "Epiphone Banjo Company". They produced their first guitars in 1928. Epi
Stathopoulos died in 1943. Control of the company went to his brothers, Orphie and Frixo. Unfortunately, they were not as capable owners as Epi. In
1951, a four month long strike forced a relocation of Epiphone from New York to Philadelphia. The company was bought out by their main rival, Gibson
in 1957. In the famous "Dueling Banjos" scene in the 1972 motion picture Deliverance, actor Ronny Cox plays an Epiphone acoustic
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I wonder if anyone still owns an Epiphone oud?! Who knew that a major American guitar brand started out as a luthier's shop in Izmir?
It's true that Gibson's parent company more or less treats Epiphone as a entry level marketing strategy, but not exactly. Epiphone has its own
president, still, and produces a number of distinct guitars that are related to its history (Sheraton, Casino, Broadway), and some of their high end
guitars are actually made in the U.S.
But Fernand's statement is definitely false. No actual Gibson guitars are made in China, and to my knowledge no Fender guitars are either.
Many Epiphone and Squier guitars are made in China, but it's not same thing.
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Multi Kulti
Oud Junkie
Posts: 252
Registered: 1-27-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: skaataa!
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
I wonder if anyone still owns an Epiphone oud?! Who knew that a major American guitar brand started out as a luthier's shop in Izmir?
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As i know there are no Epiphone-oud (actually you would call it a Stathopoulo's oud) found ..only bouzoukis and lutes... if you are interested you can
see here http://oldbouzoukia.wordpress.com/ some old Stathopoulos and read about the story of the Family.. Actually they come from Sparta,Greece and then
they moved to Smyrna because of a better instrument-market...
Nikos
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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I didn't and find it very interesting as Nikos' addition too 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by Multi Kulti | | Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
I wonder if anyone still owns an Epiphone oud?! Who knew that a major American guitar brand started out as a luthier's shop in Izmir?
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As i know there are no Epiphone-oud (actually you would call it a Stathopoulo's oud) found ..only bouzoukis and lutes... if you are interested you can
see here http://oldbouzoukia.wordpress.com/ some old Stathopoulos and read about the story of the Family.. Actually they come from Sparta,Greece and then
they moved to Smyrna because of a better instrument-market...
Nikos |
Thanks for that Nikos, the story is very interesting. Here's a direct link:
http://oldbouzoukia.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/luthier-anastasios-stathopoulo/
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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"Fernand's statement is definitely false"
- Really? Not just "mistaken"? A lie, then?
Maybe I'm a bit touchy, but that's not being suitably cautious, nice or respectful. On what grounds would you say "Definitely"? It's constantly
changing, as I said. Here for instance is Gibson's own long-forgotten press-release.
http://www.gibson.com/GBME_News.aspx?AliasPath=/Products/GBME/Sub+P...
They said Gibson, they said China, and THEY said the numbers are "huge". Who knows all subsequent details. Wikipedia is
hardly a credible source about corporate internals. I don't know what the true numbers are/were and when. But stop for a moment; do you seriously
accept the notion that that little plant in Nashville, with that one guy hand-spraying the finishes, produces all the Gibson-labeled guitars on the
world market?
Without being verbose, in their own words: Company Name: Beijing Zhen Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.
Company Address: #8-2-3, No. 1 Baiziwan Road, Chaoyang District, Beijing, China
Our business focus on Musical instruments, for example, guitar, we have the brand of Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, Ibanez, Jackson, Olp etc.
The guitars I understood were made FOR Fender, Gibson, etc, and didn't seem like black market stuff, and the numbers looked significant. I have no
idea what is "definitely" anything any longer, and that's as far as want to go with this. But please don't just call someone a liar, or G might go
ballistic and M will possibly delete the entire forum to be on the safe side. )
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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p.s. Judging by this, things are not simple on the Gibson mass marketing front
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-tnmdce/case_no-3:2008cv00279...
.. .what WAS the topic again? Ah, ARDENT DEBATE. So it's on-topic! That's not like the admin coming in and deleting the single most moving example of
conflict-resolution without the use of censorship or billy clubs. A wonderful story, in which alienated family members were at last coming together,
while strangers were amiably solving their differences, and ardent folks with widely divergent views all ended up in a "Lassie" or "Walt Disney"
ending, leaving the scene virtually hugging, with practically tears in their eyes! Religious people were coming from far just to touch the servers
this demonstrably happened on, and (after it was all over) (but just before anybody had a chance to save it all and present it to the Vatican, or to
the great Ecumenical conference in Jerusalem, or at least on Oprah), the admin tread in with combat boots because he'd heard of conflict, and wiped
out the whole thread, and this most precious evidence of Man's ability to cooperate went up in bits, never to be believed! That's like burning the
Dead Sea Scrolls to prevent controversy!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Mmh, maybe we ALL should have a tea to calm down and hope the forums will soon come back to the harmony, they were so famous for!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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I didn't say you were lying, I said the statement is false. I made no judgment of your intent or character.
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Maybe I'm a bit touchy, but that's not being suitably cautious, nice or respectful. On what grounds would you say "Definitely"?
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Well, for one thing, they all prominently say "Made in the USA" on them, and on hollowbodies the label inside it say which US plant made the guitar.
Unless Gibson is engaging in fraud, of which we have no evidence, then they are definitely made in the US.
That's not a press release, it's an excerpt from a newspaper artice, written for a Nashville paper. Here's a link to the article:
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-business/gibson-cues-mass-market
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They said Gibson, they said China, and THEY said the numbers are "huge". Who knows all subsequent details.
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If you read the article, there is nothing in it supporting your original assertion that Gibson guitars are made in China. and the "They" is the
newspaper, not Gibson per se.
This appears to be about the line of guitars which they are offering at Best Buy, called "Maestro". Again, not "Gibson".
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Wikipedia is hardly a credible source about corporate internals. I don't know what the true numbers are/were and when. But stop for a moment; do you
seriously accept the notion that that little plant in Nashville, with that one guy hand-spraying the finishes, produces all the Gibson-labeled guitars
on the world market?
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'The' plant in Nashville isn't so little, they have more than one location in Nashville and have been
expanding:
http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/gibson-guitar-begins-24-million-expansion
Also, they have plants in Memphis, TN and Bozeman, Montana. Conspiracy theories and innuendo are hardly more credible than Wikipedia. Do you
really think that if there was a company-wide conspiracy to label Chinese-made guitars as being "Made in the USA" complete with faked labels
as to the US origin that some disgruntled employees wouldn't have blown the whistle on it and caused a huge scandal (and it would be huge if it were
true).
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Without being verbose, in their own words: Company Name: Beijing Zhen Musical Instrument Co., Ltd.
Company Address: #8-2-3, No. 1 Baiziwan Road, Chaoyang District, Beijing, China
Our business focus on Musical instruments, for example, guitar, we have the brand of Gibson, Epiphone, Fender, Ibanez, Jackson, Olp etc.
The guitars I understood were made FOR Fender, Gibson, etc, and didn't seem like black market stuff, and the numbers looked significant.
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That does obviously seem like black market, if it's even legit. If you care to look, a number of folks seem to have been defrauded by this "company",
sending them money and not even receiving guitars.
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I have no idea what is "definitely" anything any longer, |
And yet you confidently say that "95%" of Gibson guitars are made in China?
| Quote: | | But please don't just call someone a liar |
I didn't.
I'm done discussing this. I wanted to correct the misinformation you were spreading, from here on everyone can decide for themselves.
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