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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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50 years. That's a long time to NOT look forward to. That's close to hell. I'm almost resigned to losing this oud.
Adding to the glue BEFORE? And remember Edward Powell's misadventure with liquid hide glue (we don't know regular hide glue would have served him
better)? This whole story sheds some light on the popularity of aliphatic resin (synthetic) glues, which, on the other hand, creep under tension and
cannot be undone/redone.
Since most instruments don't stink, it's a specific mistake that was made on a few. Like what? Keeping the hide glue too long? Insects in the glue
pot? Failure to follow basic toilet hygiene while building an oud? What?
It's ironic, that Alfaraby has an "oud Adani". Alfaraby and I have teased each other about our respective "oud Adani". Alfaraby, dear brother in
suffering, somehow I doubt your smelling oud is your "oud Adani", but I ask anyway: is it? If so, we have a legitimate case to take to the United
Nations.
The night with the air conditioning was not good. The oud mostly dried out; I feel miserable. The soundboard has risen a little from the moisture, so
the bass strings slap it, but that's probably reversible if I EVER get to a place with where things dry out. How does ANYTHING dry out in this
God-foresaken place?
On an important front there might be some who would argue that the oud smells "a lot less", but I'm not one of them. This is turning into an
obsession. I think about this too much. I'm starting to have increasingly frequent thoughts of smashing it. Occasionally an evil thought comes to the
fore: "sell it!". Yes, take it back to the States and sell it. I can probably get what I paid for it. The guy who sold it to me seemed like he was OK
with ANY price. Now I think I understand. If you ever take this oud to a humid place, and it "flowers" on you, even if you return to the desert, and
it calms down, you will always smell it in your mind, and you will never love it again! The only option is to pass the cursed oud on to another naive
player.
Alfaraby is right. It's like deodorant on sweaty underarms. But Chris has made a discovery. Coffee is used to neutralize smells. Like in perfumery,
they keep cans of coffee around to re-zero the nose. Even in perfume stores. So one idea is to just put coffee beans in the oud for now. Once I get
back to civilization, I have many options, leading up to "disposing of it". This last term covers a range of solutions, from a muddy swim in the swamp
among the snakes and alligators, to Christmas time firewood, or being smashed on stage as part of an "art piece", to a swift merciful blow against a
cement structure, all the way to a glamorous presentation on e-bay: "A work of art! be SURE to get it!"
Of course I should find the guy who sold it to me, and leave it on his doorstep. You know, like a story from 1001 nights, a bad dream, the oud Jinn
who ALWAYS returns home.
I still have 4 days to try to live with it. Try coffee beans and keep playing? Or attack it with chlorine bleach? Just put a paper bag on its head and
call it "habibi"?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Coffee grounds might be more "powerful" than beans, I think.
This is definitely what I would try first, because there's no risk for further "damage".
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Location: Holy Land
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Absolutely not ! "Adani" smelled just as fresh as wood should. Was it the Adani that stink, I think I would have smash it on cement floor decades ago
 !
The smelly is a rare piece of art of an outstanding maker, whom I shall not reveal for the man's reputation sake . I can't smash it, neither sell it,
nor give it back or away . It sounds like heaven and whenever I play it, I almost hear ABDO NAHAT moans in his grave. The oud is a real fortune,
therefor I have to preserve it .
I can't choose coffee because of the fine rosette condition. Once I try to remove it, it shall crack down into pieces. I couldn't find F10 around
either, so I shall wait to see what would you do Fernand , and follow in your footsteps , if you'll let me !
Aymara : Thanks for the advices .
Waiting
Alfaraby
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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There is no distributor in Canada or USA ... try UK.
PS: The UK shop redirects US and Canada customers HERE.
But I think F10 only kills the bacteria and doesn't remove the odor. Maybe just cover the oud with some coffee beans, after the bacteria is killed.
Oh ... btw ... F10 itself is odorless, if you buy the original ... stay away from the pine fragrance variant.
PPS: Don't buy a liter or so ... 100ml are more than enough, because it's a concentrate you have to mix with water. And buy the concentrate and not
the ready to use bottle, because you need different concentrations depending of the need ... bacteria, fungi or viruses.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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The first stage of the anti-odor attack was the Lysol. I don't know what's in it, but alcohol and water are the "base". So when I sprayed the inside
of the bowl it got wet enough I had to look for a way to dry it. The air conditioner helped a lot. Was the smell gone? No. Was it less? yes. Was it
acceptable? No.
Yesterday I got to sit in a cigar maker's seat and make a couple of cigars. They had coffee too. I got 1/4 Kg of ground coffee beans.
So the next step was to throw about 100 grams of ground coffee in the oud. And shake and shake. That helped a lot. I can see that what Chris found is
quite relevant. I cannot say if the coffee by itself would have done it, but after the Lysol, it's a victory. I have to search in memory to try to
recall the smell. It's gone, the coffee seems to eat it. So the question is how you approach it in Alfaraby's case. I think there have to be two
parts, one to kill, the other to deodorize. So what I would do if I could not reach inside is to get some sort of vaporiser to make a fog, and get it
in the oud through a hole in the shamsa. In the liquid I think that chlorine bleach 50% with water should work, maybe weaker. If something like F10 or
Lysol is available, it should work too. They have vaporisers for asthma etc. And then I would make a very very strong coffee extract and vaporise it
in there too. Maybe there are ways to make coffee so the color is light but the essences are strong? I don't know.
My remaining problem is that the soundboard has swollen, probably from the lysol adventure, maybe just from the ambient humidity, and I don't know if
I can expect it to go back down. Do I need to wait for dryer climate, or is there a trick I can try here? Might it never return to the old shape? Does
anyone have experience with the spooning soundboard effect?
You can see how much it has risen, maybe 1 cm, certainly more than 1/2 cm. Are there any known tricks for quickly absorbing humidity? Run hot air from
the hair dryer through it?
I think I'm going to try to sell the oud here, as all instruments are horribly expensive, apparently due to high duties. Absurd prices. And nothing
made locally. Ibanez bass: $1350. Mexican Fender guitar: $1400. Of course they have never imagined, let alone seen, an oud. i will have to explain it
is muy popular in America!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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It's a two step process. First you have to kill the bacteria, but after that the odor still remains, because it's caused by their metabolite. So the
next step is to get rid of the odor. I don't know how exactly it works, but as it seems coffee binds the odorous substances.
| Quote: | | So the question is how you approach it in Alfaraby's case. |
First I would buy F10 and make a F10 water mixture of 1:125, which is the highest concentration for viruses. I'd do that because I wouldn't want
contact of the fluid with the oud. But F10 would evaporate at room temperature, if the humidity isn't to high in the room ... maybe max. 50%. If he
puts the F10 mixture in a bowl and places the oud's soundhole above it, the F10 gas would reach and kill the bacteria over a time of several days. See
picture.
After the bacteria are killed, he could fill in coffee "powder" through the rosette holes, which can be shaken out later ... the rest might be removed
with a vacuum cleaner and a thin tube ... if that fits through the rosette holes.
| Quote: | | Do I need to wait for dryer climate, or is there a trick I can try here? |
Do you remeber silica gel (rubin gel)? It's used to keep electronic dry, for example condenser microphones. It binds humidity and keeps it low.
But I bet you can't buy it in Central America?
| Quote: | | Might it never return to the old shape? |
You should open a new discussion about this question, so our luthiers notice it.
| Quote: | | Run hot air from the hair dryer through it? |
If the distance is high enough, you could blow warm (but not hot) air into the soundhole ... this air is very dry and will bind humidity. But as you
know, this is a bit risky.
Discuss that with our luthiers.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Chris, I HAD F10 all sorts of options would exist. Let's see if Alfaraby thinks he can get some. If he cannot, it's harder. But let's assume for a
moment he can order 100ml from that English place.
I can't imagine the 1:125 F10 dilution being necessary. Since it is so harmless and non-toxic, why not let the vapor form from pure concentrated F10?
Who needs the extra water? Why do you think it should not contact the oud? I also don't understand when you say it's a gas, because quaternary amines
as I recall are highly polar, i.e. water soluble, and solids even? But I know nothing about this product.
We don't know anything about coffee's "mechanism of action", but it IS widely used as a scent-neutralizer. At the cigar place they use it to "clear
the palate" when tasting cigars. Same thing in perfumeries.
I think if I had F10 I would wet the ground coffee with F10 and work it into Alfaraby's oud through holes in the shamsa. Then shake the oud so the
damp coffee sticks to the insides. Let it sit until the coffee is all dry, it will fall off the wood, then get it all out with shaking and a vacuum
cleaner. Maybe leave some in the oud. I rather think I'll leave some coffee in my formerly-smelly oud, as insurance. And it smells nice! What is
interesting is that all trace of the Lysol smell is gone too. It just smells like wood and coffee! Amazing! THANK YOU CHRIS!!!
In my case spraying with Lysol was extreme, I was so desperate. It caused the soundboard to spoon. If I were starting over I would wet ground coffee
with Lysol as above. If I had no Lysol, I would try another disinfectant, like Chlorine bleach, but clearly not ON the coffee, that would devour the
coffee, and probably destroy its odor-neutralizing compounds.
Let's see what Alfaraby tells us, what he can and cannot obtain, and his thoughts.
p.s. I offered the oud at a decent price to the music store in town. They thought about it, but decided they could NEVER sell it. It's quite a bit as
if someone walked into a European music store with a Tricordio, which is a Central American instrument they did have, mandolin-sized, fretted, with 4
courses, each one with 3 strings, hence the name. I'm not too keen on plinky soprano instruments, or I would offer a trade, as it was one of the
cheaper items in the store. But anyway, they did not buy the oud.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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The concentration is lower, when it becomes a gas ... and F10 is that cheap, that it doesn't matter much 
| Quote: | | Since it is so harmless and non-toxic, why not let the vapor form from pure concentrated F10? |
That would be a waste and it might be similar to alcohol ... 70% is better to kill bacteria than 90%. So why should I use it pure, when 1:125 or even
1:250 has the same effect?
| Quote: | | Why do you think it should not contact the oud? |
Because then I don't need to dry the wood And who knows, if it makes spots,
loosens the glue or something else, we should avoid. The gas will do what we want, so why risk anything?
| Quote: | | I also don't understand when you say it's a gas, because quaternary amines as I recall are highly polar, i.e. water soluble, and solids even?
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I'm not an chemistry expert ... I only can tell you that it works as a gas. It's an insider tip amongst veterinarians to let parrots inhale F10, who
are infected with aspergillosis, a very toxic and life threatening fungi illness of the respiratory system. I also used it this way for my parakeets,
when they had another less harmful respiratory desease and the symptoms were gone after only two days.
| Quote: | | But I know nothing about this product. |
It relatively new (a few years), but the best desinfection product I know, very effective, but less harmful and much cheaper than others. It even
kills the avian influenca virus without problems. All the chickens and geese that were killed in fear of this disease could have been cured with F10
... no joke.
| Quote: | | I think if I had F10 I would wet the ground coffee with F10 and work it into Alfaraby's oud through holes in the shamsa. |
That might introduce too much humidity inside the bowl and the coffee might be glued to the wood ... and what does wet coffee? Yes, it creates brown
spots ... I think Alfaraby wouldn't be pleased, if the sign of the luthier inside the bowl would get coffee spots.
| Quote: | | In my case spraying with Lysol was extreme, ... |
Yes, and I got really shocked, when I read, what you had done. I feared, that something unwanted would happen.
| Quote: | | I offered the oud at a decent price to the music store in town. They thought about it, but decided they could NEVER sell it. |
Show them videos of Speed Caravan Make the oud popular in Central America and
import more ... LOL
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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In my case spraying with Lysol was extreme, ...
Yes, and I got really shocked, when I read, what you had done. I feared, that something unwanted would happen.
I thought the oud was incurable, and I was close to smashing it. But I also thought the wood, if it stretched, would shrink again in the dryer climate
at home.
I rather think the coffee cannot work just dry dry dry. That's why it seems moistening it with a f10 solution might be a good way to do both jobs. I
don't mean soaking. I don't think it would even stain. On my oud the coffee stuck to the bowl at first, but left no marks, and then it dried and
stopped adhering. But we are all just experimenting. The important thing is, that thanks to you, we have the ultimate weapon: coffee. Where did you
read about this?
Futbol, USA contra Ingleterra! The USA barely has a chance against one of the best teams in the world. Since in the US hardly anyone plays futbol, the
US team is brave indeed. Futbol, or "soccer" as it is called, is a snobbish sport that has become popular in private schools, if you can imagine
playing polo. It is not a sport of the masses, very few people play it or watch it. I remember playing futbol as a kid in France, they would shout
"Cor-nerrr", and I had no idea what it meant. I never could adapt to American "football" in which the mass of the players plays a determining role. I
don't understand why they don't turn up the violence a bit, give the players baseball bats, or let them kung-fu each other.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I think it will shrink, when drying, but I fear not as much as you wish. Ask Dr. Oud and the other luthiers about it.
| Quote: | | I rather think the coffee cannot work just dry dry dry. |
It should, but I'm not 100% shure.
PS: The housewife besides me says, dry coffee works and to get rid of the moisture fill in dry noodles
| Quote: | | Where did you read about this? |
I found an old pharmacy article written in old german lettering in google books. Regarding the lettering I expect that it was written before World War
II.
| Quote: | | ..., or "soccer" as it is called, is a snobbish sport ... |
In Europe it's THE sport of the masses ... I myself find it boring, though the world cup is more interesting. My sport is the Nürburgring, the
world's greatest race track, the "Grüne Hölle" I especially like oldtimer
races. But currently I watch "24 hours of Le Mans" on TV ... that's more thrilling than soccer.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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I my case, I wouldn't put this specific oud on any risk whatsoever. It's, as aforesaid, a rare highly valuable oud, but it's fragile and weak, so I'd
never dare to let it face humidity, let alone WATER !!! I shall have to look for dry gases only to kill the tiny bastards first, then try the dry
ground coffee to kill the odor left behind, then shake it out or have it vacuumed out with a tube; but never, I mean never, use any sort of wet
mixtures whatsoever ... not even coffee based.
The problem though is the rosette. It's very fine and has thick woofs and kind of stitches. But ground coffee can be eased out the narrow holes
anyway.
My question however is : is there any kind of "gases" that might kill the bacteria, that can be found in a pharmacy or a drugstore ? Once the enemy is
gone, we'll manage to clean our home easily afterwards, with coffee or without .
I'm not really contributing anything of value to this debate, so excuse my ignorance... I got B` in Chemistry in high school & never rehearsed it
since then
Anyhow, thanks for the helpful thoughts
As for football : Do you know wh said why run after one ball - get one for each player ?  )
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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That's exactly, what I expected.
Regarding your question about a dry gas:
If you do the procedure in winter you can use F10 without any risk. If I remember it right, you live in New York, where you will use a heater to warm
up your appartment. And as we all know, heaters dry out the air, so that owners of valuable instruments need to take care to raise the humidity to a
level of around 50%. Without that care, it would be around 30% in winter ... much too low.
And that's where F10 comes into place again. You use a F10-water mixture instead of pure water to raise the humidity.
That should be the easiest method without any risk, when done in a small room and the humidity is controlled by a hygrometer.
Regarding the coffee ... I would use dry coffee grounds. As you already wrote yourself, you can even fill it in through a very fine rosette and shake
it out later. If a bit of coffee remains inside, who cares, it does no harm and avoids further odors.
If you want to get absolutely shure, that everything will work as expected, ask several luthiers about my recommendation and/or try it out with a
piece of wood first.
PS: F10 gas in the room will not harm humans or animals, if not used over extremely long periods of time (e.g. years). My sweetheart is an asthmatic,
who got always problems, when handling desinfactants. Not so with F10. Unbelievable, but true. F10 is only a problem, when the fluid comes in contact
with eyes.
That's why i prefer motorsport ... everybody's got his/her own car
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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I will mention one more thing for people who are struggling with an oud that smells very bad. The combination of a disinfectant (Lysol) and then
throwing fresh ground coffee in the bowl helped a lot. Wetting the wood may have its own consequences. But as the coffee loses its aroma, the old oud
smell sneaks back in. Not terrible, but recognizable if you've smelled it before. So it seems coffee absorbs odors, but the original cause might in
time overpower the coffee, or the coffee lose its power. This is clearly a very powerful something. In any case leaving ground coffee in the oud seems
necessary, and maybe empty it and load up with fresh coffee periodically. That suggests something more might be needed, so we are not "done" with the
problem. Maybe Aymara's F10 will finish the job ...
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Aymara
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I bet it will
I think, your problem is the climate and the remaining moisture in the wood. It seems, Lysol didn't kill all bacteria and due to the good conditions
they grow rapidly again.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Alfaraby, I have some disturbing news. I just spoke to Hank Levin, who's a serious oud technician and who has dealt with museum ouds with the dreaded
smell. He pointed out the obvious, which is that the rotting glue is getting weaker as it rots, until it fails altogether. He has seen several
instruments like that and says it might be smart to reglue it. It doesn't sound like any treatment is likely to penetrate deep enough, if the glue is
rotting from the inside, that makes sense. What he would do with your museum piece is take it apOart and reglue it back together. I don't suppose
there's any particular hurry, as long as you can stand the smell; if it starts to let go, you can always do it then.
Mine is smelling much better in my home climate, where humidity bounces often daily from 25 to 75% (and that explains why my nylon strings so often
rise in pitch!). I'll be trying your suggested fix when I get a chance, mostly using heat, maybe just a little dampening, since Hank also thinks
wetting the braces is very likely to cause them to pop off.
I had an opportunity on my flight home. The flight was very full and they were confiscating carry-on guitars etc to put them in baggage. The oud was
in a flimsy soft case, and I was SO tempted to let them have it, it surely would have been smashed, and they would have had to pay insurance, a clear
profit. But I wasn't sure how well such claims worked, and something else was holding me back, something like "holy oud, my precioussss", and so I
said it was small, and precious, and they found a spot for it. Oh, well, stupid oud lover.
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Aymara
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Mmh, that's bad news, but also interesting. Might it be, that the bacteria are eating the glue? If yes, then there might be chances to slow down or
even stop the rotting process by killing these little beasts.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Yes, but it's doubtful you can get any treatment to penetrate into a thick body of hardened glue, and the decay cannot likely be halted.
If a hide glue is made fresh in the glue pot every day it generally will not rot. But for other organic substances, this includes the black dots on
tablas, the smart makers generally add copper sulphate or other poisons to prevent creatures like <b>rooster</b>roaches and bacteria from
developing an interest.
Anyway, the prognosis for an instrument whose glue is rotting is not good unless you dismantle it and glue it afresh.
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alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Thanks Fernand & friends
Does this process take half a century to take place ?
I doubt it, because my oud smelled just fine untill last year !
Could it be the storage that let the bacteria sneak in ?
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Interesting question. I think it depends ... the better the environment for the bacteria, the faster the rotting.
F10 will build up a very bad environment for these little beasts and definitely slow down the process, but who knows, maybe even stops it, as long as
the bacteria didn't get too deep into the material.
| Quote: | | Could it be the storage that let the bacteria sneak in ? |
What kind of storage and for how long?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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alfaraby
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What kind of storage and for how long ?
In a hard case in a closet for a couple of years & out only for hours to play, once on a while, then back there !!
Is this wrong ?
Thanks Chris
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by alfaraby  |
In a hard case in a closet for a couple of years & out only for hours to play, once on a while, then back there !!
Is this wrong ? |
Mmh ... some luthiers even recommend storing the oud in a hard case, when not played, but I think, under the assumption, that it is played
regularly?
If you talk to woodworkers, they might tell you that wood needs to "breath".
The question is, might there be something wrong with the hardcase or the closet?
I would definitely buy F10 and first use it on the hardcase and then dry it again. Here you can spray the inside slightly with F10 without any risk
(don't wet it too much), let it "operate" closed for half an hour and dry it with a hair dryer, that is not too hot. An alternative approach would be
to put a piece of cloth soaked with F10 on a piece of plastic bag inside the closed hardcase for half an hour so that F10 will operate as a gas. After
that, I would use it on the oud as a gas as described above.
I my opinion you have a good chance to solve the problem this way and if not, the problem will be that worse as Fernand reported ... complete
reglueing ... unbelievable, what this would cost.
But maybe discuss my recommendations with several luthiers before you act. The question is, how deep the bacteria got into the material after one
year.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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A couple of recommendations I read said an oud should be out, enjoying the air, and never stored in it's case. That's what you'd call
"counterintuitive", but it makes sense, in retrospect.
I continue to be amazed at how delicate a balance an oud is, the tension of the strings against the bridge and soundboard, like a living thing, a bird
in flight. That's why I love the simplicity of that Sukar neck adjustment, it's right in line with the oud's dynamic tension, like a sailboat under
full sail.
Hank Levin was saying that the soundboard on many modern Turkish ouds is no thicker than the cardboard they pack shirts with, and if you ship them
under full string tension, any impact tends to shear the soundboard across the grain! Whoa! And the play of humidity is so intense!
I can understand that you would want to protect your antique. But it's as if equilibrium with the environment were the only possible defense. And
you don't find a lot of 400 year old ouds, or lutes. Maybe if your glue only started to spoil you have a good chance with some sort of fumigation, and
Chris' F10 sounds like a very good idea. But my Adani seemed ok until the central American humidity woke up the buggers. My wife picked up on it the
minute I brought it home, she had a crib with bad glue as a child, and they had to burn it, she's sensitized to the odor. She had diplomatically asked
if I didn't think it had a strange "something" to it
I'm too lazy to lock my instruments down, anyway. I leave my instruments on those metal "A stands", scattered all over, ready to pick up and play. If
space were a problem, I'd get those wall "forks".
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FastForward
Oud Junkie
Posts: 225
Registered: 6-2-2008
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Fernandraynaud, I just ran into this and thought it might useful in your case
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Quickies/RiceClean/riceclea...
Hope it works.
Ibrahim...
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