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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 1-20-2008
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yes!
this is the plan of my new ragmakamtar design - originally I planned to make the lower fingerboard hang OVER the soundboard like a cello's, the idea
being that it would leave a larger area available to resonance in the soundbaord - but now I am realising that the soundboard is really too big, so I
have decided to let this lower fingerboard attach directly to the soundboard and it will function to actually KILL this area of the soundboard,
bringing the soundboard's resonant area more into the size range of an oud.
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 7-9-2008
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Do I see it right that you're using traditional bridges now? Very good idea I think.
In guitar construction you would underpin the fingerboard through a wood block under the top, so that the neck is being stabilzed. That kills that
part of the top anyway.
I think also the neck angle is an important issue for the sound (and not only for playability as is often believed). Because when you have a neck that
is slightly back tilted, this by itself gives more tension force orthogonal to the top!
And then reconsider the holes! They function as openings for the helmholtz resonator, so for that matter their only count as total open area. But
spreading that area over few holes has the disdvantage of killing whole regions of the top for lower frequency modes. It also could be holes in the
region where the neck is coming in (this has been succsessfully used in guitar construction, though it didn't convince too man players).
Best wishes
Robert
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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yes, good thinking!
I could use those areas of the top that I am planing to KILL, as areas to put the soundholes.
However, I am still not totally sure if the soundhole (in traditional area) is actually stealing area from bass production. But maybe yes.... I have
seen both cases - 3 soundholes and great bass, one soundhole and bass bass, no soundholes are great bass. . . . . 
I was thinking to play it safe this time and try to replicate an oud's bracing and layout - but as you say, maybe better to think twice about this.
I now plan to go for a normal oud fixed bridge, but a floating bridge for the sarod.
Yes, a block UNDER the fingerboard overhang would be good too.
Hey, have a look at this interesting vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAEQKmyB5Nk&feature=related
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Hello Edward,
first of all I don't think you want to KILL any of the soundboard, you'd rater want to controll the different regions in a way as to make them work
for the purpose they are suitable for. The big areas have more ability to have large modes and are so naturally suitable for bass - but if you make
them to loose, they loose their other purposes.
If you would divide the body internally through a wall still allowing the air inside to communicate, you would additional stability, coud do the
bracing more pliant and the coupling to the sides softer, thus maybe having a better focussed bass at the end. This would also allow for each part of
the body having its smaller sound hole.
Again, just ideas
best wishes
Robert
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Thanks Robert, I have some thoughts on what you say - - -
...but for the moment, here is a clip of a concert we played last night. You can hear the low register of the "oud".
I am very happy with all the strings except the dugah and neva strings. If I can just get these two strings stronger, and keep the rest just as good,
then I will be pretty satisfied. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWpTLP_oKa4
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Edward Powell
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this gives an idea of the "sarod" part.... I am experimenting with a VERY buzzing lowest string. Maybe this is over-doing it, but I actually like
the incredible sustain the open jawari gives. . .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jn92rR1MbE
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by Edward Powell  | Thanks Robert, I have some thoughts on what you say - - -
...but for the moment, here is a clip of a concert we played last night. You can hear the low register of the "oud".
I am very happy with all the strings except the dugah and neva strings. If I can just get these two strings stronger, and keep the rest just as good,
then I will be pretty satisfied. . .
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Hello Edward, I'm not so familiar with indian terms; what are dugah and neva strings?
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Edward Powell
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Dugah and Neva are the Turkish names of strings.
Dugah = the 3rd string (the thinnest wound string)
Neva = the 2nd string (the thickest nylon)
these strings represent the mid-range of the instrument, and on every single ragmakamtar (6 now) I have build these two strings have always been the
problem. The highs have always been good (probably because the areas around the bridges have always been nicely tight), and the lows have always been
good (probably because of the instruments large size)....
but the mids have always been weak (probably because there is something going on there which is acting like a mid-range filter/block. Probably several
things- - - - high on my list of possible culprits are:
1- close proximity of the bridges to eachother
2- non-resonance papier mache back
3- previous wood backs too heavily braced
4- too much tension around bridges (good for highs but killing mids?)
5- bridges not being in the center of the soundboard
6- necks totaling too much extra weight
7- air resonance not coordinated with other resonances
Anyway, I am trying to identify as many possible causes as I can, and then working on these.
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Hello Edward,
again guessing, but if I think of guitars, the g is always the weekst point, in terms of presence and volume. That is partly because the string is too
thick and so too stiff.
Did you try fluorocarbon for neva? Or even plastic wound flamenco strings (Savarez has some different ones)? A hard tension plastic wound guitar g (as
some flamenco player use it) could be also good for the dugha (it would be probabely on the low tension side, but never mind, sometimes this is the
best for oud...
Too heavy bridge could also kill the midrange - that would be easy to check on your free floating versions; just make them of a different material or
thinner or a combination of both.
Also too stiff top can be a problem.
Another issue with guitars is, what could be called 'the working point' of the top. Some guitars require a higher tension string set, some lower
tension, depending on the way how the top and its bracing is laid out.
Generally the quality of the guitar is best if you hit the right tension, and diminishes, if you miss it, this or that way.
This is not only true for string sets, buth within that, each string has its particularily suitable tension. They are not necesserily the
same!
I'm sure you did already a lot of experimentations with strings, but maybe not systematically enough.
As I gather, you play for your living, so it pays of to be totally confident of your instrument! Why don't you get yourself few rolls of SEGUAR
FLUOROCARBON Premium leader (the best string material I've ever encountered) in as close spaced thicknesses as possible and to some experimentation
(maybe also using the String Calculator String Calculator). You might be surprised, how much is changed with the proper tension.
Of course, if you know all of that, than just trash it...
best wishes
Robert
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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...but interesting that on Turkish fretless guitar, they play MOSTLY on the G string!
You mean PVF strings? I MUST use a PFV 2nd nylon because the normal nylon sounds absurd. But normal nylon works great on the 1st nylon.
Yes, on the floating bridge there is ALOT of room to tweek (but also alot of room to mess it up - - I still have not decided what kind of bridge for
the new instrument... I guess fixed bridge is more safe).
Yes, when I changed the neck angles, the bridges neede to be raised majorly - then the mids suffered a bit. Beccause of the increased tension due to
raising the bridges I lowered to tuning from B to A... maybe to suffering mids are because the bridge is now heavier due to being taller?? but they
are of light material and extremely thin now.... but this is a very good point.
Yes, absolutely further experimentation with strings is crutial. I still don't have a good source for PVF unfortunately.
It is amazing how many factors can have an enormous influence on sound - right down to the kind of pick you use!
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Maybe you can find a store in the USA or Canada having Seaguar Fluorocarbon Premium Leader.
This is really an excellent string material, having all the good characteristics of fluorocarbon without the bad ones ...
best wishes
Robert
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Many nylon guitar players like it. It has been discussed before here in the forums some time ago.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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rojaros
Oud Junkie
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Hello, Melton Tackles in California has a special offer of Seaguar Fuorocarbon premier Leaders, just google it, it's a good offer, it seems
best wishes
Robert
BTW Edward, are going to have some concerts in southern Germany?
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Germany might be an interesting place for Edward. Here are many medieval markets and festivals and the oud would fit nicely in there.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
Posts: 144
Registered: 7-12-2012
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I started out by searching: " sape " and found this thread...I have to admit I tend to oversimplify things in my mind though find all of this really
interesting.
I can't resist wondering how relevant these ideas stayed in creating that great tone of the latest Ragmakamtar...
does the tone radically change if one of the neck's is unstrung?
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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Hi Roots...
I forgot all that was written on this thread... but I recall it being very enlightening. Regarding the AIR RES., I know for a fact that once I
learned how to control and place the air res., suddenly my instruments started sounding much much better!
Now, to answer your question... yes, if I have only the oud neck strung up and the sarod strings off, the oud will sound a little sweeter than when
the sarod strings are on. The is because the sarod strings add more tension to the soundboard, thereby making it less able to respond optimally to the
light energy of the nylon strings. So with both necks strung up the oud is a tad more "tight" sounding. But luckily the difference is very small.
I would say that for the sarod there is not much improvement if the oud strings are not on. Actually the sarod really likes having the oud strings on
because they resonate like sympathetic strings, giving an Indian effect.
Regarding performing in South Germany, I would love to, and I live quite near in fact. However I don't currently have contact there unfortunately. I
will be going soon for some gigs in Hungary and Serbia with this bassist and an Indian percussionist... have a look at this vid if you are
interested in Ragmakamtar + Double Bass, playing in 7.5 beats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opSiIbqQoGQ
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rootsguitar
Oud Junkie
Posts: 144
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Bueno Edward! Cool clip, I enjoy that fretless dialogue with the bass---I'll bet that's great music to travel with. Striving for originality within a
tradition is real medicine---creative path!
The ideas in this thread are really useful to my practice hours too, they make me listen to the instruments more and remind me of all the
persistence/real time skills that went into creating them.
It must be that the spirit of "thinking outside the box" fueled these stringed-ideas as they traveled across oceans.
Keeps me searching for a tone when my ideas start to slow ( lol).
-------Best
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