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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud  |
The coated strings, like Elixirs, are designed to extend the useful life of bright strings like wound bronze, by shielding the entire string from
finger oils and debris. |
Yes, I know, but I thought, the coating might be of similar material as the latex you found.
| Quote: | There are even 100 meter rolls, once you're sure, and you have a big family, too many ouds, and lots of friends  |
... or want to open up a shop for PVF strings
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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Location: San Francisco, California
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OK, I talked to the engineer at Seaguar. Here's the scoop.
Seaguar makes their own resins. The "fishing leader" that they make is probably (?) the best made, most consistent, Fluorocarbon material on
the market. "Leader", as opposed to "line", is supposed to best handle impact when a fish bites, so it's better made than line. Seaguar know people
use it for musical instruments. It's also the brand I've seen most mentioned by guitarists.
They used to sell one type of leader. You can still find it as "Seaguar Leader". Now they make three types, but not all gauges are available in all
types.
The Red Label is a plain PVF monofilament. It is the cheapest. Its surface is the hardest and most slippery of the three.
The Blue Label Leader is what used to be sold as Seaguar Leader. It is made by a two layer extrusion process, so the inner material is harder than the
outer layer, it's what provides the tensile strength. The outer layer is softer, designed to grip better in knots. It likely imparts a softer sound to
the string. Blue Label is medium priced; a 0.52 mm retails "on the street" for $20 in 25 meter rolls, and it can be purchased cheaper.
The Premier Leader is the newest and most expensive. The outer resin is softer than the Blue Label outer layer, providing the best knot grip, and
maybe the most gentle sound.
Strings of PVF have a louder and brighter timbre than nylon. The brightness increases as the thickness decreases, so it's a fine balance between
timbre and tension. I tried a 0.47 mm Premier for the cc course. The tension is around 3.3 kg on a 615 mm scale, but it's a little bright, and maybe a
bit too slack for fast tremolo.
The best choice for the cc course is 0.52 mm, it seems everyone agrees. The 0.52 mm in Premier is discontinued, but it is available in Blue Label.
Tension is a little high, 4.0 kg on a 615 mm scale, but it sounds and plays better than 0.47mm.
The 0.62 mm for the gg course is available in Premier and Blue Label. I have the Premier. It's perfect in timbre and tension (3.2 kg at 615 mm), but I
imagine the Blue Label isn't very different sonically. I can't hear a difference.
A major beauty of PVF is that the transition between the wound DD and the plain gg strings is almost imperceptible.
There is a 0.37 mm Premier I purchased for ff tuning, the tension looks right, but I haven't tried it yet. Based on my experience with thin cc
material, it might be a bit bright. If someone who is experienced with PVF wants to try it, I'll send the first person to e-mail me a pair of strings.
PVF is more slippery than nylon. Rubbing the last few inches at both ends on a violin rosin cake is a good way to prevent slipping at the bridge and
on the pegs.
An interesting "rule of thumb" from the Crane.jp web site:
If you want to use a nylon string instead of fluorocarbon, multiply the thickness by a factor of 1.3.
If you want to use fluorocarbon string instead of nylon, multiply the thickness by a factor of 0.77.
They also note that on the thinnest strings, timbre can be overly bright.
I've been looking for info on different brands of Fluorocarbon lines. A shop near Berkeley that sells to musicians said Blackwater leader is very
popular.
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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I didn't yet read thru all these posts, but I will - - - but can I just ask for a short cut:
You mean it is possible just to order some Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader from some fishing supply place -
0.52 CC
0.66 GG
....and that's that ??? they will work fine?
I am in Czech now, can anyone suggest a good supplier ?? How much can this cost for two 25 meter coils?
THANKS!
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Edward Powell
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Hi Friends...
I have just finished building a new ragmakamtar and I really want to get the nylon strings sounding great, but I am realizing that I will need to
experiment with plenty of string types and guages.
I think that PVF will sound the best, but because this is a very unusual original instrument it is not clear which guages will sound the best...
...therefore ideally I would like to be able to try out a whole range of guages before finally ordering full size coils of these strings.
I know that many of you have been ordering and using Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader... and from reading various threads, can see that some of you
prefer different thicknesses...
What I would like to ask is if some of you who have some of this Seaguar fluorocarbon premier leader - if you would be willing to send to me 2 meter
samples of whatever guages you might have. I am very happy to pay you for the strings and postage - if you have PAYPAL I can pay immediately.
My hope is to be able to quickly and affordably acquire a very wide range of PVF guage samples in order to test all of them and find the best for my
new instrument.
Thanks so much!
Edward
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | The most "exotic" strings I've ever had. These are installed on a Spanish guitar at the moment, but I tried a couple on a Sukar 615 mm scale oud. The
sound was so different that I decided against getting two sets and stringing an oud with them, at the moment, but if someone is looking for a new
sound, these are it. One of these days, I'll give it a try.
The trebles are flatwound nylon on a "rope" core, the basses are flatwound silvered copper on rope. They look and feel Rolls Royce. For instance the
0.039" bass string is so flexible, it's like spaghetti al dente. The tensions work out to 2.8 to 3.4 kg, with the 0.016" c course a bit over 4 kg,
lighter than 0.54" PVF.
It's a bright sound, on a Spanish guitar. The flatwound nylons sound a lot like PVF, but with amazing sustain. So smooth! You can slide more silently
on the basses than on normal oud strings. There is no change in timbre at the Bass-Treble break. The strings don't even stretch a hair after you put
them on; they stay in tune right away! Amazing quality and attention to detail all around.
On the oud, the basses I tried gave a zingier sound than the typical oud strings. I never had a course doubled, it might sound divine, or it might
just sound odd.
In any case, there is no danger, even the tightest 4.1Kg for the cc on a long scale is within reason. The ball ends can be worked into the loop, or
cut off, but careful, the bass strings are not overly long.
These sets sell for $18 at the moment from JustStrings.com, so two sets would add up into the "lute strings" price tag, not cheap, but not impossible.
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are these the same thing as PJ116?
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Edward Powell
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...finally read thru this whole thread... WOW FERNAND! ...you have made some fantastic research and very valuable information available and
precisely presented here. . . very very useful.
I am now about to order some spools of PVF, thanks for all this info!
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Edward Powell
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I am trying to find a good supplier of SEAGUAR PVF in Europe but it seems like a big confusing jungle on the INTERNET... so I thought I would ask
here first if anyone yet has any luck ordering this in Europe.
The problem with ordering from the US is that shipping is about $90!!!! ...which is absurb!
Thanks if anyone can pass on some info about this!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Update: I have been happily using the PVF fishline strings for almost a year on all ouds but one: an Egyptian whose timbre I want to keep percussive
and muted. They sound great on Sukars. They do not delaminate. They settle down and stop stretching. Typically I need to touch up my wound strings'
tuning every day but the PVF trebles tend to stay put, after the initial stretching. A little violin bow rosin on the string ends and on the tuning
peg prevent slipping (on all strings).
PVF strings solve the problem of timbre change between the wound basses and plain trebles, because the PVF is a little bit more metallic-sounding.
Problem solved. PVF has a density around 1800 kg/m^3, whereas most nylon is close to 1100 kg/m^3.
I find the Daniel Mari Arabic or Turkish sets (they are the same) at $8.99 from OstrieMusicSupplies.com excellent for C, EE, AA, DD, gg, cc or C, FF,
AA, DD, gg, cc tuning on 600-620 mm ouds. The bass string is about 0.041", no problem pulling it up to D. A Spanish guitar or other silvered copper
on fluff wound 0.050" string can be substituted for a stronger bass.
On a 585 mm scale Turkish oud these same strings would be tuned up to Turkish.
I then swap the nylon trebles for Seaguar Premier Leader PVF. The top cc is 0.020" or about 0.52 mm, they usually call it "30 lb", the gg is 0.025" or
about 0.62 mm, they usually call it "45 lb". But the "lb" strength is variable. Go by thickness. The manufacturer is Kreha Corp. They should cost no
more than about $1 per meter in 25m rolls.
For an ff top course, there's a 0.37 mm 0.015" 18 lb leader that should work fine, but I don't have a 7 course or uptuned oud to try it on.
For Europe, or the Middle East, most American suppliers aren't quite sure what to do, as they never ship outside the US. Remind them that a up to 4 lb
flat rate Small Box Priority Mail to anywhere in the world costs $13.95. Delivery is usually under a week. The box is available at the post office
free, and is about 8.6" by 5.4 by 1.5 inches.
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Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
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I change the strings on my Sukar twice a year; in January and July.
I usually use PVF on the 1st & 2nd courses but this time got lazy and just put the nylons on that came with the set...big mistake!
The nylons sound dead even when brand new in comparison. If you want the zing of the wound courses to be matched then PVF is a must for the top
courses!
I use the MusiCaravan PVF Treble Set.
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rojaros
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I haven't tried Seaguar FC Premier on my oud yet, but I do use them constantly on my classical guitars.
All I can say is, these are the best fluorocarbons strings I aver tried; better soundwise and more consistent in terms of sound and intonation than
any 'official' fc guitar string of any manufacturer I have ever tried.
Excellent material, so take your Arto's string calculator, calculate the diameters and pray that you can get Seguar FC Premier any close to what you
have calculated (unfortunately the are not so many diameter steps in between, so I'm not able to find my ideal tensions for all guitar strings, the
jump between the twom possible g strtings is too big...)
best wishes
Robert
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rojaros
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| Quote: Originally posted by rojaros | I haven't tried Seaguar FC Premier on my oud yet, but I do use them constantly on my classical guitars...
Robert |
To give an update: I just put for all three treble string pairs Seaguar Premier (0.41mm for ff, 0.57mm for cc and 0.74mm for gg) on my Stenzel oud.
Before I had Nylgut light tension.
The Seaguar strings are at least 100% improvement for my taste.
best wishes
Robert
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Edward Powell
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wow those are slightly heavy tensions no? I have .66 seaguar tuned to g#g# at 61.5cm ...what is your scale?
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