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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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It probably would have been better for you not to post this. It wouldn't be right for me to let you post this sort of self-serving BS unchallenged.
We get a lot of new people who want to play the oud. It's wonderful. They come here, but only some of them have the wisdom to do a lot of reading in
the forum before they place an order.
Why do most of them have to go through the same old nonsense, and why do we have to witness all the variants of abuse, over and over?
Why is it so difficult for you mass-vendors to accurately describe what you are selling, and clearly present the eventual options to the customer
ahead of time?
If you want to use this occasion to promote your business and tell us how well you treat your customers, then it's only fair we look at specifics,
like:
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11020&p...
In fact, in this case you misrepresented the instrument as being "professional", having "supreme quality manifest in every possible way", with an
ebony fingerboard, when in fact it had none of that, and needed significant work to bring it even to an "acceptable" level. In the end the customer
discovered returning it was impractical, and he had been "had". A lot of other people wouldn't have been so calm about it!
You know, I love the oud, and I respect Middle Eastern traditions. What really bothers me is that instead of helping eager beginners pick out a good
instrument, instead of being a positive influence and helping promote Middle Eastern culture, you don't mind giving it a bad name.
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Arab Instrument
Oud Junkie
Posts: 269
Registered: 4-27-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Mr Fernandraynaud
From the beginning the only thing you have to say is just bad things about us.
You don't know anything about us and there are not 100% happy customers.
If there is a problem it will be sloved with our clients and not in this forum.
It is very sad that you are trying so hard to ruin our good reputation and now that you have this case you are probably very happy.
I am wandering if you can present in this forum also the good feedbacks about us.
Very sad !
Assaf
Arab Instruments
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MvT
Oud Admirer
Posts: 7
Registered: 9-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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Hi Fernandraynaud,
thanks for your responds.
It is very sad, that vendors like the one I bought from create such a bad vibe and treat costumers with so much disrespect.
I love middle eastern music and have been playing middle eastern drums for decades.
I never bought my drums on line.
This was my first try to buy an instrument over the Internet.
I though I give the business to people in the country where the oud was made.
Since I have a friend in Syria with whom I studied and know for many years
I was hoping his phone calls would help in the transaction and I would not be taken advantage off.
Little did I know!!!
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Dear Assaf,
From what "beginning"? It is one of the realities of the modern world that information flows far, fast and wide. Yes, it puts very severe demands on
customer relations. If you take good care of your customers, they tend to take good care of you. Why should I be happy to hear of bad experiences?
It's no longer possible to do "hit and run" business. No matter how well you present your business, the most important thing we know about you is what
your customers say, and every single unhappy customer with a credible complaint must be considered an important warning to the next customer.
It's very important not to spread innuendo and defamation. It becomes pretty rapidly clear to an experienced person when someone is complaining
without good cause. There is one member who repeatedly tells second hand horror stories about one specific vendor, and although there is some
substance to what he says, members have started to discount his litany. Sometimes also people praise a vendor without any first hand experience. But
when they have beat up on a vendor without good cause or first hand experience, I have defended them.
You say: "If there is a problem it will be sloved with our clients and not in this forum" -- well, then, slove them, and in the meantime don't come on
forums like this to crow about how you well you treat customers. Feel free to point us to positive reports from customers.
Since beginners here ask us, it's especially important we point them to potential issues and bona fide complaints. Unfortunately, even if many of your
customers are happy, it's ZERO consolation for those who are not. When Scolecite complained, I pointed out the positive side of his purchase to him as
well, and his reaction was very fair and balanced. Nobody is persecuting you; how you chose to treat him was your decision.
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 734
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving my oud
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I've long said that there is a lot of money to be made by someone in America or Canada to open an online oud shop with pictures of real instruments,
no nonsense shipping, and fair prices. I don't mean to sound geocentric by saying that but I think it would be much easier for beginners if they
don't have to deal with things like language barriers, stock photos, odd descriptions, and slow communication.
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
Member Is Offline
Mood: play my ouds
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my sugestion to you dear friend is that when you want to get an oud you should go personally and take it,play it try it.....
This is what I do and this is what people I sale ouds do,because I ask them to do it.....
Or get directly from the luthier,serious luthiers with good reputation,BUT
as I said....go and check the instrument,oh...and an advice because I 've been in your place....Try to buy a good oud,well made with good woods and
sound,believe me you will NEVER regrate it....
Take care and I am really sorry for what happened,it's really very sad and I really really wish you to find a good oud.
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sloppyjack593
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 10-9-2010
Member Is Offline
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I read about a quarter of the way down this before getting bored of the lack of oudspeak! Here here to the comment on modern day identity, but yeah
advice on oud learning - learn the fiddle. If you listen to western music it acts as a transition almost to become familiar with a lack of frets. I
may be talking bull<b>shoot</b> to any here sayer but as a guitar and mandolin player, it's working for me.
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sabbassi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 570
Registered: 4-28-2008
Location: Morocoo
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy
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Hi Mvt,
Where do you live?, I can fix your oud for free my friend. I feel sorry for you.
regards,
Samir
Best regards, Samir
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charlie oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 694
Registered: 11-19-2007
Location: Newcastle upon tyne. UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: chords prefer frets
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Arab Instruments & Assaf. You are very welcome on this forum. Mike has included you in the forum links and has stated you are committed to an
excellent service. I wish you every success. This forum is generally welcoming and helpful so please stay with us. I think your website is excellent
and its always good to see your posts which show us the latest ouds you have to offer with sound clips too!!! Well done.
Best Wishes, Charlie
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MvT
Oud Admirer
Posts: 7
Registered: 9-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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Hi Samir ,
thanks for your offer ,
that is very nice of you.
But I see you are living in the Netherlands and I live in New York.
I think I will be able to fix the oud myself.
I'm a piano maker and also made hand drums and bamboo flutes.
That's why I'm even more upset to see how careless this oud was made.
Do you have any tips how to clean the hide glue of the face of the oud.
The face is unfinished pine.
There are spots all over from the manufacturing, very poor job , also inside the body the work is very sloppy.
Thanks again, we are actually neighbors,
I'm originally from Germany
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sabbassi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 570
Registered: 4-28-2008
Location: Morocoo
Member Is Offline
Mood: happy
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Hi,
With all due respect, Some oud makers or companies just use the labels to sell. This ouds are built within a day or 2 sometimes by kids even. I have
seen it myself. this are mass productions ouds. What do you expect of 500 Dollars oud inc. shipping and Case.
There are so many things you need to check before buying an oud: What kind of wood is used for all parts of the oud, even the neck block and tail.
the Soundboard, a descent sound board from aged spruce or cedar etc....
I have seen the inside work of some ouds, it's a disaster. dripping glue, loosen paper joint etc..
I would use a scraper to remove the glue. Very gentle with it, as you may make some damage to the board. After that you can sand it lightly.
Good luck to you
Best regards, Samir
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Assaf, I too would like to congratulate you on your web site. I hope that this incident is an encouragement to be especially careful that beginners
fully understand what they are considering buying. Perhaps it's time to move away from the language of the baazaar, in which every item is "the best"?
I trust that the next reports we hear will be from very satisfied customers.
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Zulu
Oud Junkie
Posts: 149
Registered: 6-21-2004
Location: Austin, Texas
Member Is Offline
Mood: I'm in the m'Oud for Love!
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Assaf,
I must agree with Fernand; as a new buyer to the oud market it would be great to see detailed descriptions of the ...
Soundboard wood
Is the soundboard 2 piece?
Peg wood
Bowl woods
Fingerboard wood
Bridge wood
String length
Overall dimensions
Nut material
Rosette material
Number of staves(ribs)
Action measurement at neck body junction
If the neck is adjustable put that in the description(huge selling point!!!)
If it comes with case, what is the case made of?
Clearly post your terms of sale and return policy for those who live in and out of your country.
I am a very successful business owner and appreciate feedback from customers and potential customers; it has allowed me to tailor my advertising to
what the customer is attracted to...a very simple and effective tool!
Your sales are highly likely to increase just by simply adding as many detailed descriptions of your product that you can gather.
This would show the customer that...
1) You are knowledgeable about the product you sell.
2) You are concerned that the client knows exactly what they are purchasing from you.
These two points of interest create trust between the buyer and seller; trust is the most important element of any relationship and once a buyer
trusts you he will not buy from anyone else.
We appreciate the service/business you offer and would love to see you have more continued success and are offering suggestions and constructive
criticism so that you might more clearly establish yourself as a trusted source for purchasing an oud.
I wish you all the best!!!
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Arab Instrument
Oud Junkie
Posts: 269
Registered: 4-27-2009
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Thank you very much for your feedbacks.
We will take into consideration every feedback.
Our goal is to give the best service we can and we will try to do the best in order to get more happy customers.
Thanks again
Assaf
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oudy allen
Oud Maniac
Posts: 73
Registered: 1-24-2012
Member Is Offline
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I guess I have also been deceived by the same guy Hicham Idder. Two weeks ago we agreed on the price of 400 € for the Sukar Model 201 (on Alibaba).
It has been two weeks now since he allegedly sent the oud but I have not received anything yet (I live in Germany). He recently sent me a tracking
number obviously belonging to another shipment (destination Russia). Now he's putting me off with inconsistent excuses and incoherent replies. The bad
thing here is that there is apparently nothing I can do since the payment cannot be withdrawn. I am extremely upset and disappointed. Any advice what
to do and how to behave?? 
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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I had a series of exchanges with this "man" a few years ago. The interesting thing is he changes name and offers whatever your want at whatever price.
Then if you're lucky you might get whatever he happens to have. Unfortunately it's not uncommon and not considered "cheating". That's the secret, he
justifies it as just cleverness. Oudy I think you're going to have to get under his skin. I believe you have to start by ridiculing him, using the
most stinging insults and demolishing his story so much that even he starts to feel uneasy. You might get an oud yet. Contacting someone on location
can be helpful. But just politely pointing out details like fake numbers, missing money, delays or the wrong instrument just gets a hearty laugh from
everybody in the baazaar. When you think about it, especially considering the country is verging on total chaos at the moment, and hundreds of people
are being torn apart by artillery every day, that might not be an entirely inappropriate reaction to someone ordering a musical instrument from Syria
at this time. If you want any chance of results you're going to have to turn up the heat a lot.
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dkhoury35
Oud Junkie
Posts: 181
Registered: 11-3-2010
Location: Melbourne Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: IM IN THE M-OUD
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do you know somebody in syria to go knock on his door with a base ball bat or even an a k47 give him a fright 
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oudy allen
Oud Maniac
Posts: 73
Registered: 1-24-2012
Member Is Offline
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Thanks for your replies guys. Well, it's been two weeks now that I've been grappling with this guy. He seems to be a very shameless and cheeky guy
since he's coming up with the craziest stories and excuses just to play out time.
I knew that it could be problematic to buy an Oud sent from Syria right now but the guy told me that he is currently located in Morocco and he can
also send the oud from Morocco. That's why I thought there would be no problems. I think I'll have to put some more pressure on him. But I don't think
that I'll eventually get my Sukar 201.
Unfortunately I don't know anybody in Syria who might be able to help me. Even if, the guy is residing in Morocco.
You cannot imagine how pissed off I am.
Could you guys give me some reliable ways to get a Sukar oud?
Best Regards
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_tone
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 3-12-2012
Member Is Offline
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there are a couple of sukar ouds for sale here on the forum that look like pretty good deals, excellent deals compared to your recent experiences.
you'll have to do your own due diligence of course, but my one experience buying from a forum member was excellent.
sorry about your current difficulties, good luck.
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MvT
Oud Admirer
Posts: 7
Registered: 9-30-2010
Member Is Offline
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Hi Oudy,
I'm sorry to hear Hicham Idder also took advantage of you.
I'm from Germany too and we do business very differently there.
Put all your good behavior aside and just get right down tuff with him.
He is a cool operator and will insult you.
Don't be afraid!
He got very ugly with me, when I confronted him, that he didn't send a Sugar Oud and that the neck broke off during shipping.
I actually have a friend in Syria who studied with me in Germany and had asked him for help when it all came crashing down.
He tried to call him, but Hicham would hang up on him when he started to talk about the Oud and later never picked up again.
Sorry for the bad news.
I also thought it would be good to order directly from the county where the Oud was made. big mistake!!!
My Oud is actually now showing cracks in the body and I will have to find somebody who can do the repair.
Does anybody know of a place in New York who could help me?
thanks in advance for your recommendations.
Good luck. Alles Gute!
Maria
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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If you are willing to understand that there's a cultural gap here, and that you will have to haggle, negotiate and be assertive, i.e. get in the
spirit, Palmyrami is probably one of the best retail sources for Sukars. Note that they have more than one page of each category on their web site.
They don't gauge on the price and, like any Middle Eastern merchant, can be flexible if they feel like it.
They don't know much about ouds, and ouds are a tiny fraction of the wooden objects they offer. But Sukars are very consistent as far as ouds go, and
what they have in stock in the US (the ones with a clear price and NOT marked "in stock in our Syria store"), can be ordered with a pretty high level
of confidence -- incomparably better experience than from some of the "knowledgeable" overseas dealers who manage to ship a vast selection of
"professional" flower planters shaped like ouds.
Palmyrami's instruments have been (accurately) photographed and (very well) packed in Syria, so they just take the corresponding labeled and taped up
box off the shelf in Michigan and ship it out. Questions like "is the action low?" can only elicit responses along the lines of the cookie cutter
descriptions in their ads, so don't bother asking. They don't know ouds from chairs, but Sukars generally take care of themselves. If the customer is
livid, Palmyrami can be made to understand that this transaction isn't working out, and they will take back the wooden thingie they sold. If the
instrument has to be shipped to you from Syria, it's more difficult, and realistically not advisable at this time. I mention all this because I have
purchased from Palmyrami several times and they have always been fair in the end.
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oudy allen
Oud Maniac
Posts: 73
Registered: 1-24-2012
Member Is Offline
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Thank you guys.
Well, I confronted him with the situation several times and also wrote quite harshly but this Hicham Idder guy now isn't replying at all to me. I
really don't know what to do now since there seem to be no possibilities to get at this deceiver. I will let you know as soon as something evolves.
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