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Kelly
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 1-30-2007
Location: Manchester, UK
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi Terry
Glad you're getting to grips with your oud.
1. Slipping 12thbass string: you might try cutting the notch in the saddle a little deeper with a fine file as long as this does not lower the action
too much and cause buzzing. However, its perfectly acceptable to have bottom string as a single course.
2. rattling bottom strings suggest you could go for slightly higher tension strings in that area but again this is acceptable and is often found with
new strings- let them settle and play in for a bit longer.
3. The horny question of risha vs plectrum. I guess each to their own-I find that a risha gives much more versatility, changes in dynamics and tone
that you will find very hard to produce with a plectrum. I would suggest that you persevere with a range of rishas- it will take time and patience but
you will be able to produce -I think- a fuller tone. Similarly with guitar tuning you might find limitations too.
The great thing about exploring the oud is that you can experiment and find your own wayand you will get through alot of different risha/pectrum
string tunings in the process! Happy exploration
Kelly
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Terry Sleeper
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 11-15-2010
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Kelly:
Thanks for your encouraging words!
I would be loath to go down the cutting / filing road as I would seriously be running the risk of wrecking the instrument. I've seen too many guitars
ruined by amateur tampering.
I would like to keep 2 x CC strings. Safest to see if the strings settle-in, I think.
I take your point about rishas - I think I need to try a few different ones, certainly firmer than the one the seller of the oud kindly supplied with
it. It must be possible to buy a few rishas with different thicknesses (?)
The "guitar" tuning is here to stay, though.
And I have just been informed that Bernd Kuerschner at:
http://webmail.tiscali.co.uk/cp/ps/Mail/ExternalURLProxy?d=tiscali....
- can supply extra long strings (115cm).
No excuse after that for not stringing-up properly.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Aah, ok, I see ... a floating bridge oud with 12 pegs ... then the standard tuning would be FFAAddggccff.
I'm a bit worried, if your tuning has a higher overall tension than the standard, especially because of the double CC.
It might be worth opening a new thread about this question ... it might be overseen here.
| Quote: | | but I am finding that the 12th string keeps slipping out of the saddle on the floating bridge. |
I bet, that is caused by the changed tuning ... usually there would be a double high ff course ... thinner strings.
| Quote: | | Or is it a price one has to pay for being greedy and wanting a 12th string? |
As said before, 12 strings are not uncommon with floating bridge ouds, but usually these are tuned to FFAAddggccff ... so, higher than your tuning.
| Quote: | | But - and I hope that this heretical practice won't get me chucked of the Forum |
Ok, we have a lot of traditionalists around here, but ... no, never, not because of a guitar tuning ... this is not the first discussion regarding
that.
| Quote: | But, to be honest, at this point in time I can't see me abandoning a plectrum any more than I can forsee using anything other than a "guitar" tuning
for the strings.
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You will change your mind ... just a matter of time 
I got convinced by a selfmade horn risha ... it causes such a great sound, no guitar plectrum can achieve that!
No, it's magic 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Mood: mellow yellow
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Hi Terry
I think it must be lurve
I would encourage you really strongly to persevere with the risha - I feel your pain, it took me ages to get my risha technique to a point at which it
simply cannot be replaced by a plectrum, particularly when playing some of the flicks and ornamentations.
It really is worth it and imho is very much part of the nature of the oud. Once you get the right risha then the action follows, and then you find
you can play well with more types of rishas, but you need the right risha to get you going. I still have a way to go, there is so much to this
instrument, but I have noticed breakthroughs and developments in my playing which is a good experience.
Where are you in the UK? try to get to a UK oud meeting if you can. I'm down here in Portsmouth and if you are nearish I'll happily help you out
where I can.
Cheers
Leon
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
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Mood: high
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Am I really the only one on here who uses a risha for playing guitar?
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Terry Sleeper
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 11-15-2010
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Lol! That's the spirit!
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
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Mood: high
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Hahaha, I really do! Probably because I'm a lot better on the oud than guitar.......believe it or not I even use oud tuning for guitar, but it doesn't
really work.
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Terry Sleeper
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 11-15-2010
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Aymara - thank you for your advice.
Just to clarify: when you say:-
"Aah, ok, I see ... a floating bridge oud with 12 pegs ... then the standard tuning would be FFAAddggccff.
I'm a bit worried, if your tuning has a higher overall tension than the standard, especially because of the double CC."
- do you mean that, if I am to use a "guitar" tuning, then I should string the oud with a FFAAddggccff set, tuned to FFBbBbEbEbAbAbccff (i.e. with
"guitar" string intervals)? The current strings - CCFFBbBbEbEbggcc - seem WAY too slack, the lower ones especially rattling like unholy Hell.
Also, I do take on board your (and others) comments about using a risha. I have a cheap plastic one and feel as if I could use something MUCH firmer
- though I have been advised that, since floating-bridge ouds are loud anyway, I need to go easy with the risha I use. I'm a bit confused here.
I am very grateful for all of the advice offered by people on this thread. Without these forums I'd have thrown in the towel!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Quote: Originally posted by Terry Sleeper  | | do you mean that, if I am to use a "guitar" tuning, then I should string the oud with a FFAAddggccff set, tuned to FFBbBbEbEbAbAbccff ...
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It's worth a try ... you could also try EEAAddggbbee ;-) with such a set, which is even better, because no string needs to be tuned up, but only a
half tone down. And you have real guitar tuning ... hehe
| Quote: | I have a cheap plastic one ...
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I tried them too and always got back to the plectrum, until I got a HORN risha ... that baby is unbeatable in sound qualities. To get a vague feeling
what I'm talking about, try a horn plectrum first.
Have a look ... someone here on the forum sold horn rishas recently ... mine is selfmade by my sweetheart out of a piece of buffallo horn we bought on
a medieval market.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Terry Sleeper
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 11-15-2010
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Thanks for that.
The main consideration then is getting the extra-length strings (115cm) so that they can be attached to the correct pegs - the "standard" length
strings are no good for the floating-bridge model, they are just too short.
I already have a set of CCFFAADDggcc on order, so I will give them a whirl first (just to see if they rattle too!), though I think the "higher" tuning
is the way to go.
Much obliged for your kind advice.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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The FFAAddggccff sets are designed for floating bridge ouds as far as I know ... maybe contact Matthias in Germany or Jamel in the USA ... don't remember your location.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Terry Sleeper
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 11-15-2010
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Thanks again, Aymara.
An EAAddggccff set is available, with an extra E if desired (which it is).
That looks like the one to go for.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Well, then you only have to tune the high ccff courses a half tone lower and you can play real guitar tuning.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
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Mood: high
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Out of interest....what is to be gained from tuning an oud like a guitar and playing it with a guitar pick?
Yes, you might be more familiar with the standard guitar tuning and a standard guitar pick, but aren't oud and guitar two different instruments and
should therefor be treated as such?
As an oud starter there's a lot to learn, so you might as well start from scratch - with a simple tuning and a risha. Otherwise you will surely run
into problems at a later stage. What if somebody gives you a few useful hints and you have to transpose the fingering on the spot? What if you see an
amazing player on Youtube and you want to copy a few things? Same goes for the risha. Only a real risha can produce that soulful tone we all know and
love about the oud.
Sure, you are free to tune your oud anyway you like and pick it with whatever suits you best, but that real sound and feeling can only be produced by
learning proper technique which takes people years and years to master. It would be a real shame to learn for a while only to have to start all over
again once the limitations of a certain tuning or picking technique become obvious....
Just my 50p's worth, of course.
Have fun!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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For former guitarists it CAN (not must) be a quicker learning experience.
If you take this strange approach, you can concentrate an getting used to the fretless fingerboard first. The second step would be exchanging the
plectrum against a risha to learn the correct picking technique. The next step is the tuning.
And then ... at last ... the switch from Europian to Arabic music.
As I said ... it can, not must.
But as you guessed ... it has a downside ... there's the risk of getting used to improper techniques, which is very time consuming to get rid of. So I
think, though above approach might work nicely, the phases shouldn't be too long.
I myself started with standard arabic tuning, but with a plectrum ... but only 2 weeks.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
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Mood: high
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Yeah, whatever gets people going is fine by me, and I really didn't want to sound dismissive.
The main thing is to feel your way into the instrument, by any means. And then you have to know where you are going, hahaha!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I think your hint about getting used to false techniques is important.
| Quote: |
And then you have to know where you are going, hahaha
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Let me quote Frank Sinatra: "My Way"
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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Mood: mellow yellow
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I tend to agree with Littleseb, I came to oud after guitar (I still play the guitar aswell of course) and never even bothered trying to retune or
seriously use a plectrum - its just a different instrument and not really that much like a guitar in my experience ... I love to play both btw )
There is a very distinct feel and amazing breadth of sound and soulfulness that the oud can make and the risha gives you access to a certain
springyness and flick which generates great rhythm and 'groove' which you can hear in lots of oud playing.
It was that that attracted me to the oud in the first place so that's what I chase - I'm really getting this groove now and it is very nice to
feel.
I never had a problem going from oud to guitar and back again and I'm not vastly talented - they are just different. Another thing to remember is
that the left hand fingering (if you are right handed orthodox, not goofy) responds to the right hand movement, they tend to mirror each other.
One observation I learnt from Nizar Rohana was to try not to hook the thumb of the left hand to far over the fingerboard - keep the palm a little more
open and don't hold on to the oud too tightly as you will tend to pull the neck and base of the bowl back towards your body. In the same way don't
hold the risha too tightly, stop occasionally and try to take the risha from your hand without moving the right hand - it should slide out smoothly
with minimal drag.
Each hand will reciprocate the other and the open hand tends to give a very 'open hearted' soulful range to your sound as shaped by the left hand and
driven by the risha - the oud is really soulful and you will want to fully feel that.
Good luck
Leon
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Terry Sleeper
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 11-15-2010
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Thanks for all of the comments, gents - much appreciated.
Two points come to mind:
1. What is a "simple" tuning? The fact that the oud has no standard tuning surely make "transposition" a necessity anyway - unless both players are
using the same tuning, a scenario far less likely than 2 guitar players learning from each other;
2. I do keep trying to use a risha sent to me with the oud - a cheap plastic one, but (yes, I admit) offering far greater flexibility than even my
favourite guitar pick. I would like to try a heavier risha, though (as stated above) a "floating bridge" oud is supposed to be a loud thing anyway
(by oud standards) and a lighter risha is recommended. No wonder I'm confused.
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Sam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 375
Registered: 3-23-2009
Location: Cairo - Egypt
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Mood: Selling Ouds
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Soundboard is not spruce , It's pine wood.
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littleseb
Oud Junkie
Posts: 224
Registered: 10-14-2008
Location: london - uk
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Mood: high
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(from bass to top) d-g-a-d-g-c is a simple arabic tuning used by many beginners. it is advisable not to go any higher than the high c as it keeps your
left hand busy and forces you to change positions. give it a go and see how you get on.
with regards to the risha - i would go with whatever you have. in my opinion it is a lot more important to generally get used to it. having too many
rishas to chose from can be confusing as well. don't blame your lack of skill on the risha! a lot of people play very soft cheap plasic rishas
(including myself) and sound amazing (excluding myself).
get used to what you have, which i'm sure won't take more than a few weeks. you can always swap for something else later to harden or soften your
preferred sound or style.
and, most importantly, have fun!
let us know how you get on!!
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Jimwilson
Oud Admirer
Posts: 8
Registered: 2-1-2011
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I'm uk based aswell although north of the border, in auld reekie (Edinburgh). If anyone knows any oud players around Scotland give me a shout with
their names/contact details because I certainly haven't seen any.
Good to see you're getting on and enjoying the oud Terry. Although the transition from guitar can be confusing and the several hundred opinions on
each issue baffling, it;s a worthwhile journey.
I started playing oud in a heretical way, being a dilruba (indian cello) player. I basically mucked around with the ragas I played on that instrument
as well as using it to mimick scottish pipe tunes (it;s very good for the sustain and ornamentation.) I've finally started trying to learn maqamat
and play the thing 'properly' - that's been the most confusing and exciting step of all.
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Terry Sleeper
Oud Maniac
Posts: 53
Registered: 11-15-2010
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Well, it's just over a year down the line and although I like the oud I simply cannot get used to the bowl-shaped back of my oud, especially after
playing my Gibson acoustic guitar.
Perhaps I ought to try an oud which is much smaller in size - a Turkish-style one.
I know it sounds a bit wimpy, but are the smaller-bodied ouds - simply because they ARE smaller - easier to hold and feel comfortable with than the
larger ones?
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Yes! Much easier to hold and play :-)
I have sold all my arabic babes (exept for the Nahats and the old ones :-)), and got me 6 beautiful Sukar custom made turkish size..
And never regret it!!
Good luck
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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I'm coming in a bit late to this thread but it might be worth pointing out that there IS a standard tuning for oud, appearances to the contrary. In
all existing tunings the four highest courses are tuned a fourth apart. That is the same arrangement as the four *lowest* courses of guitar standard
tuning. So you already know how to use that tuning. It is only in the lower courses that the variety of tuning occurs.
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