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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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The bracing supporting the rosette is very wide and appears to be blocking a significant part of the sound hole area (which in turn may affect the
acoustic response of the completed lute).
The bracing in this location should be narrow and glued over parts of the rosette where blocking of the open areas is minimal (the idea, of course,
being to support the fragile structure of the rosette design not the open areas).
The attached image is one of my old scrap sound boards from a 16th C Hieber lute copy. The rosette bracing here is only about 1.5 mm wide and about 3
mm deep.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Hi, I couldn't resist temptation to put all parts of my instrument together to get a glimpse how it would be  Here is the neck only attached with a screw, soundboard, peghead and bridge not glued yet.
Dear jdowning, thank you a lot for your support. Of course, I can not disagree with you about the braces under the rose, and I will keep this advice
for future, but at now I think with my leves of workmanship I would did more harm ungluing these braces and gluing new ones, than to keep it as it
is...
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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The instrument has not fingerboard yet (and pegs). I am planning to make a "sandwich" from the same material I used for back and some nice birdseye
maple veener. It should produce a fingerboard with correct thickness (I can do more than two layers). It could be also a possibility to make some
decorative inlayed "panels" on the top of fretboard.
My another considerations are: to chosoe appriopriate strings and finish.
Which strings will be good ones for me? I can't afford real gut strings, but I think some specially designed nylon strings would be ok. Which
producer/brand are those with the lowest tension? Also, I suppose lute strings shall be thinner than e. g. guitar strings, but where can I see gauges
to check if holes in my bridge are not too small?
I can do french polish on my instrument... And also, I have heard that the top can be untreated. But here are some "recipes" and ideas. I would like
to discuss some of them here as follows:
1. Shellac + alcohol will make "french polish" (I can do it, I did it previously). However, I think just few coats of shellac should protect the
instrument well, without being harmful to sound. Also, I read somewhere that adding a little of acetone to dilluted shellac will make it drying faster
(and it should be good for sealing). And again - adding a little turpentine shall increase the time needed for hardening it. Is it true?
2. Also, on some website there is an idea to have the top covered only with egg white dilluted with water. Is it good idea? How to do this?
3. I have got some dammar resin. I will probably not cook a real oil varnish, it could be too difficult for me, or maybe it shouldn't? But also, I
found somewhere that dammar resin dilluted in turpentine will make a varnish too. Is it acceptable? I think it is rather painter's reciepe.
4. I haven't decided yet, if I would dye or ebonize the neck and pegbox. I found, that rubbing "China Ink" with a pad just like "French Polish" onto
wood, and then putting a few coats of shellac makes nice, warm-black semimatt finish. I did it on a neck of some old "romantic" guitar, and it was
great. Is it good idea to do this with my neck, but before attaching it to the body?
5. And for last, I want back of my lute rather in darker colour than pale wood. Except aniline stains the only one idea that came to my mind is to use
orange, or even ruby shellac flakes to produce "french polish". Is it good? What are another ways of having nice coloured (from yellow to dark-amber,
like on violins) finishes?
Ouch, much for once. But thank you in advance for any advice
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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For strings you might try Pyramid brand lute strings - nylon and wound strings specifically designed for the lower tensions needed for lute. Your
string length is 60 cm so you will be tuning the lute to Renaissance G unison tuning i.e G c f a d' g' For unison tuning you can try Pyramid #1116
(G), #1010 (c), #906 (f), 0.70 mm Nylon (a), 0.575 mm Nylon (d') and 0.450 mm Nylon (g'). For brighter sounding trebles you can substitute PVF 0.54 mm
(a), PVF 0.44 mm (d') and PVF 0.35 mm (g'). All of these strings are less than 1 mm in diameter.
Do not mess with putting egg white, turpentine, varnish or any other kind of 'goo' on the sound board. Many lute makers claim from experience that any
kind of finish - even a very dilute shellac sealing coat - will dampen the response of a lute sound board. Best to leave the sound board unfinished
(as you can always apply a sealing coat of shellac at a later date if you so wish).
Don't mess with trying to make your own oil varnish or - if you do - make sure that you do it outside due to the real danger of fire.
Coloured oil varnish is difficult to apply with a brush in order to obtain a uniform colour without a lot of practice. It makes a good durable finish
for a bowl so if you want to try your hand just purchase the same varnish and varnish brushes used by violin makers. Likewise staining wood most often
will result in uneven colour due to the wood absorbing dye non uniformly. Safer to apply a clear varnish and leave the natural colour of the wood if
this is your first attempt. Orange shellac is much like a coloured oil varnish but if you have experience with french polishing this might be an
alternative way to obtain a coloured bowl.
Clear varnishing will also darken the wood somewhat and 'bring out' the grain pattern.
The early Maler lutes were characterised by the deep dark red varnish of their bowls.
Staining the neck black with Indian ink is OK. Protect this with a hard varnish (polyurethane) not shellac which will soon wear through in use. You
might also consider staining the bridge black. Staining is best done before gluing these components in place. There is some evidence in paintings of
the period to suggest that the early 16th C lutes did not have stained necks.
You might consider undercutting the the front and back faces of the bridge so that the strings are pulled tightly against the bridge. I shall add a
sketch of what I mean later.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Here is a rough sketch of a lute bridge to show the undercutting of the front and back faces.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Thank you a lot. It cleared many things for me
But shall I stay with unison tuning? How about octave tuning on last three courses? Do it differs a lot? Is then instrument set up in different
way?
I have listened some recordings of renaissance music, and I think they use both types of tuning. Or maybe I am wrong?
And one more thing - what do You think about "La Bella" sets for 6-cs lute?
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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For octave tuning use the same size trebles as the octave strings - nylon 0.450 mm (f'), nylon 0.575 mm (c') and nylon 0.70 mm (g) or perhaps a bit
heavier nylon 0.75 mm.
The original purpose of octave tuning was to add 'brightness' to the otherwise relatively dull sounding gut basses so they are not really required
when wound basses are used. Nevertheless octave tuning - even with wound basses - can give some idea of the original tonal character of the early 16th
C lute compositions not otherwise represented with unison tuning. No difference in the set up either way with nylon stringing. Why not try both to see
how you feel?
No experience with La Bella strings so cannot comment.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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I am studying Kuerschner catalog at now... As I get I need to purchase i.e. one fluorocarbon string 180 cm long for a first course. And so on for
other courses, regarding they lenght, material and tension. Am I correct? Rather strange for someone, who is used to buying guitar sets
Edit: I mean, one 180 cm string would produce double course, or for single one and one spare.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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A 90 cm string length should be just about sufficient for a 6 course, 60 cm vibrating string length lute. The longest string length will be for the
third course so you need to measure total distance from bridge to peg #5 at the end of the pegbox (about 75 cm in your case?) and add a bit extra (10
cm or so) for tying the string around the bridge and around peg #5.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Hi,
I am going to purchase pegs as You adviced me. But having some time I put on my workbench very simple lathe. It is powered with ordinary electric
drill machine. It is pretty noisy, but eventually works well. And making simple pegs is easier job that I thought.
So, after a bit of practice, I made my first pegs 
They are made out from 12 mm "grooved" beech stick, a one just like you could buy in a building materials shop. It took me less than 10 minutes per
one. They are very simple, but as I get more experienced, and find better tools, I could be able to make better ones.
But couple of questions arose:
1. My pegs have pegheads 10-11 mm wide - quite small, aren't they? It may cause some hardness when tuning. But somewehre I saw they use wooden device
to tune pegs.
2. Can be pegs from beech? There is advice to rather not to use ebony. I wonder if beech is even worse. Again, I read somewhere that beech is
unstable. And also beech dust is somehow toxic...
3. I also have got some sapelle mahogany and ash - could be used for pegs?
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Good progress!
My smallest lute pegs have heads about 14 mm wide. Provided the pegs are properly fitted you will probably not have a problem with tuning without need
for a wooden tuning aid.
I have tried Beech wood for pegs in the past but found it to be too soft so wears quickly. Seasoned Beech is a stable wood and not toxic as far as I
am aware (although best to avoid breathing any fine wood dust). I have never tried Sapele or Ash but reckon that they would be too open grained and
soft for pegs. Hard maple might be another possible choice.
Ebony is hard but contains abrasive salts that can cause excessive wear - but I have used it.
The best wood for pegs is fruit wood Pear or Plum wood - close grained and hard.
I use a South American variety of 'Boxwood' for pegs - mainly because I have lots of it, it is close grained and hard, well seasoned and it turns
nicely in the lathe. True Boxwood tends to be unstable as it takes many years to fully season.
Rosewoods are OK (particularly Brazilian Rosewood - if you can find it these days) but the dust contains oils that can be a skin irritant.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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My pegbox has "walls" made out of Beech wood too.. At least as far I can recognize it.
Can pegs be made out from the same wood that pegboxes are?
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jdowning
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Best engineering practice is to make the bearings (in this case peg box walls) softer than the journals (in this case the pegs).
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Box of pegs
Here are my pegbox and some Beech pegs - not all of them and some not finished yet. Shafts are about 60mm, tapered roughly from about 7 mm to 5 mm.
Heads are about 10 mm wide.
Could they be? Or maybe they are too small and look odd, proportions are wrong, or even they are clumy and stupid?
Please, tell me what do You think.
Thanks in advance, antekboodzik.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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My new pegs with ebonized pegbox. How do You like it now
I was experimenting a little with Plumwood. I must admit it was very promising. However, the spindle of my lathe (a conical one) always caused worked
wood to split. Later I will manage it by gluing thin slice of harder wood to ends of blocks to be turned.
So I came back to Beechwood I think Beech turns very nicely, never splits, and
accepts lacks in my woodturning technique. But it polishes very hard, and I never succed with making my own pegshaper and use it on them. Finally, I
managed to fit them by scraping one by one very carefully and observing how it fitted to the reamed holes. Now it looks better than works, but
friendly violinist, who saw my pegbox, said the pegs turns just right. At least, I have got some "remedies" - chalk, a violin "lipstick" for pegs and
dry soap, if they would jamm.
Again, I think my pegs are still too small (and so is the pegbox too). Pegheads are 14mm wide, but quite short, which makes them ever harder to
turn... Shafts are 7mm maximum thickness, and 60 mm long.
Well, I hope my pegs would work at last. If they will not, I will make another pegbox and pegs, especially from fruitwood, and replace this one.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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This is my setup for soundboard gluing. Seems to be quite nice.
I am going to use ruby (od ruby/blonde combination) shellac on the bowl. Please, tell me, is it wise to do it now, prior to final shaping the top? I
guess with that I can avoid to have any unwanted shellac on the top. Or maybe it is better to have the joint between the bowl and the top varnished?
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Another consideration for me is to tie frets. Can it be with nylon frets? Are there rules for frets height?
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Varnish the bowl after the lute is completely assembled.
Nylon frets are more difficult to tie than gut and wear out the strings quicker than gut. There is a lot of information on the Internet about tying
lute frets etc. I have used both single and double tied frets graduating in diameter from largest at the nut end to smallest at the neck joint. Double
tied frets last longer.
Equal diameter frets can also work - depending on the set up.
Here is an article that may be of interest for lute set up.
http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/is-your-lute-set-up-well
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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My lute takes colors
The pictures show my instrument after sealing the bowl with superblonde shellac and four coats of ruby one. I think I use rather thin shellac, and
work carefully and patiently. I plan to do 8 to 12 coats of ruby shellac, depending how equal color I manage to do.
Eventually, while this yellow or goldish tone on the back looks nice (and thesee pictures don't show its natural beauty), it is far less "dark" than I
expected. Previously, I was using blond shellac only. I wonder if it is even possible to make deep orange or even brown tone like on the violins just
with the shellac only. And how many layers there should be?
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jdowning
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Shellac can be coloured to a deeper tint by adding alcohol soluble dyes. These are available from luthier supply houses - 'TransTint' is one brand
that can be added directly to shellac.
Be warned that tinted shellac varnish is difficult to apply without ending up with a streaky, non uniform finish. It should be made thin (requiring
lots of coats) and a very soft brush used.
Here is a discussion on the Maestronet forum that may be of interest.
http://www.maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/316971-color-me-sh...
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Finished instrument
Dear JDowning, thanks to your contributions on this forum, and allways careful and helping advice I managed to make a playable instrument at my own. I
strung it with nearly exact strings you suggested, and it sounds very nice. My lute has rather dark, but loud, pleasant sound with good projection,
very similar to those I know from recordings. I am very happy and proud of it. Thank you a lot
My instrument works fine, but some things have to be checked and adjusted for even better performance. There are:
1. By now, my instrument has third nut I have made (from ebony), but it is still not as good as it could be. Some spacings are uneven and first course
apperas to be too close to the second one. Also, wounded strings don't go smoothly trought its grooves.
2. I had got only four diameters of nylon strings for tieing frets. With that first and second fret are the same in diameter, also 3rd and 4th and so
on. It causes some buzzes. Generally, I found setting up the lute is much more difficult than guitar.
3. Pegs work, but are somehow unpredictable, and I had to make simple device to tune instrument because of small heads. I would consider making
another ones.
4. I have decided to use octave tuning. It is good, but now I think for early stage of learning lute playing unison tuning is better option.
Sound examples soon, as I would be able to play something interesting
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Congratulations antekboodzik. nicely done.
Ebony nuts are probably too soft. A bone nut would be best for optimum acoustic performance and will allow smoother operation of the wound strings -
provided the grooves are properly shaped to prevent sticking. Graphite from a pencil lead rubbed in the grooves for lubrication can also help prevent
sticking.
If you are using nylon for frets it is best to use softer more flexible nylon (not lute strings which are a harder material) found in low cost
ordinary monofilament nylon fishing lines. These also come in a wide range of diameters if you are using graduated frets.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Well, my frets are 0.9mm * 2, 0.85 * 2, 0.80 * 2, 0.75 * 2 and 0.7 *2. I was looking a little for fishing lines, but the thickest one they have in the
closest shop was 0.60mm, and more, orange-fluo colored There were also
green-fluo and red ones, I suppose. However, it might be good to have a particular colored one to mark e.g. 5th and 7th fret or use some thinner gauges to imitate so called "loaded" strings...
How do you find nylon lines from 0.7 to 1.00 mm? And can be nylon lute strings replaced by fishing lines of the same gauge?
Also, as I know, gut "strings" are sometimes used traditionally in tennis rackets. Maybe there are some cheaper sources of fret gut?
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Monofilament nylon fishing lines are available in the range of diameters needed for fretting (1.0 mm to 0.5 mm) - the diameter dependent, of course,
on breaking tension. Not to be confused with Fluorocarbon fishing lines. Nylon fishing lines are usually made to be invisible to a fish so are
translucent and 'water' coloured. Nylon comes in many chemical compositions and densities. The stuff used for fishing lines do not make the best
instrument strings but fluorocarbon fishing lines and leaders do - being more dense than nylon instrument strings.
Gut is best for lute frets - nylon frets will wear out your strings more quickly. Fret gut is gut that for one reason or another does not make the
grade for instrument strings so is most readily available in all required diameters from the instrument string makers. Tennis racket gut would be of
even lower quality than fret gut and might be varnished for protection (?) but might otherwise be OK, however, not likely available in the smaller
diameters required for fretting. No gut strings of any kind are cheap - compared to nylon.
Those graduated fret diameters look OK to me. Allow your lute to settle under tension for a while and then make any further adjustments to the frets
to eliminate any buzzing. Make sure that all of your frets are tied tightly so that they are in contact with the fingerboard across the full width. A
very slight convex curve to the fingerboard surface across its width and well rounded edges of the fingerboard will help to ensure a tight fit of the
frets. Nylon frets are more difficult to tie tightly and securely than gut.
Also make sure that the height of the strings above the fingerboard at the nut is sufficient to prevent any buzzing.
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antekboodzik
Oud Junkie
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Grrr, the bridge fell off... But fortunately, without no damage to the top. Looks like glue in the joint failed. I think it was due to combination of
two factors - the bridge wasn't glued well (too much glue and too thick, and gelled, glue when it was done) and centrally heated room, not enough
humid for storing instruments. But I hope it is not a very big deal to put it back to work.
Well, help me, please I am going to make fresh batch of not so thick glue, put
it back to a pre-heated bridge (with hetagun), and hold it firmly for a 10-15 minutes, Hope it would work. Is there anything I may not know, but might
be important in gluing bridges back (if it wouldn't be only one case).
But anyway, maybe it is a good reason to do some things with my instrument. I think I need to sand a little the top - just for removing some very
small grain tear-outs. I know it is not so good idea, but I am not so skilled in sharpening and using scrapers yet. Also, I would use an occasion to
slightly reshape and round edges of the fingerboard. And for a last - I am thinking of making completely new bridge and pegbox and convert it to seven
string
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