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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Great job & oud. Bravo !
If, for any reason, Dalal didn't like its sound, I'd be waiting around the corner .... 
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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Yaron Naor
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Bat Hefer, Israel
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Mood: Happy
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Just to emphesize... (-:
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Way to go Yaron. Nice job.
It would be great if others would follow this example set by yourself and Yair Dalal in making instrument details freely available for analysis and so
preserved for future generations in written record. Otherwise - sooner or later - information about the few old surviving ouds may be lost forever as
they inevitably in time 'go to the grave' with their owners.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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Yaron has found another two string fragments from the oud that he has mailed to me for examination. These are both silver plated copper wire wound on
silk filament measuring 0.9 mm diameter.
The first fragment (#14) wire diameter is 0.16 mm, winding clockwise, filament dyed red - so this is the same as fifth course fragments #03 and #04
listed in the previously posted inspection report.
The second fragment (# 15) on the other hand has a wire diameter of 0.2 mm wound anti clockwise on silk filament dyed purple - so is likely to be from
the same manufacturer as the fourth course strings.
Note that the silk filament of the core is dyed so the silk has been 'degummed' (i.e. the sericin of the raw silk has been removed reducing the
density of the silk to about 1.35 gm/cc.) The silk otherwise has not been 'weighted' to increase its density by the addition of metallic salts -
verified by the burn test)
For overspun strings it is possible to calculate an equivalent string diameter of the core material. This is an approximate calculation giving an
equivalent solid silk string diameter of 1.3 mm for the fourth course and 1.7 mm for the fifth course. Fragment #15 has a calculated equivalent
diameter of 1.8 mm. Solid silk strings of these diameters (like gut) would be pretty dull sounding but - theoretically - the fourth course would sound
at about A#, the fifth at F and fragment #15 a tone lower at F (all at A440). So these calculated figures are close enough to confirm that these
fragments are from the fourth and fifth courses for Arabic tuning CEAdgc'.
Unfortunately no fragments of the first and sixth courses survive.
Note that the images of the fourth and fifth courses in the inspection report incorrectly give wire diameters of 1.0 mm and 1.6 mm (!). They should of
course be 0.1 and 0.16 mm.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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"It is perhaps worth noting that with a nominal string length of 61 cm, it is unlikely that with gut strings the oud would have been tuned to a pitch
standard of A440 Hz but more likely lower. The reason is that a rule of thumb, indicating the limits of a gut string based upon the expected life of
the gut first course, is the Breaking Index where the product of string length and pitch standard frequency should be less than 260 (see the FAQ tab
on Mimmo Peruffo's website - Aquila Strings)"
I have just realised that the Breaking Index of 240 to 260 given by Mimmo Peruffo above applies specifically to a lute tuned in G that is GG cc ff aa
d'd' g'g' (where g' at A440 pitch is 393Hz) and so does not apply to an oud in Arabic tuning CC EE AA dd gg c'c' where c' at A440 pitch is 262 Hz.
In fact the breaking index of a gut string is given by the product of string length X tuned pitch of string. Practical experience historically
indicates that a good average value should be about 210 for gut (according to E. Segerman, N.R.I. Instruments - http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk).
So in the case of this oud, for a string length of 0.61 metres, the maximum pitch of the top string - to avoid frequent string breakage - is 210/0.61
= 344 Hz or close to f'.
So there should be no problem on this oud associated with frequent top string breakages when using plain gut at the lower c' string pitch.
The diameters of the surviving gut strings on this oud are quite heavy - perhaps in order to produce a more 'robust' sound than thinner strings
might. The heavier strings equate to higher tensions - in the region of 4 to 4.5 Kg at A440 standard pitch. The missing top string at 4.5 Kg tension
would have a diameter of about 0.65 mm in order to match the tension of the second and third courses. Apart from tonal considerations, perhaps the
heavier gauge gut strings were cheaper, more readily available and more durable under the plectrum or risha than lighter gauge strings might have
been?
Lowering pitch by a full tone would bring string tensions down to a more reasonable range of about 3.5 to 3.8 Kg. and consequently reduce stress
across the sound board which, in turn, might result in a better sound board performance acoustically?
Post revised and edited July 17
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  | Dropping the pitch overall a semitone to A415 standard on the other hand gives a Breaking Index of 253 where string life might be anywhere from a few
hours to several days. The optimum Breaking Index value for maximum string life is 240 which would equate to an instrument pitch of A393 about a tone
lower than A440.
...
Nevertheless it would be interesting to determine at which pitch the oud performs best acoustically - even when using only modern strings for
comparison. Somewhere between A440 standard and A392 perhaps?
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This is interesting and coincides with much of the recorded examples we have from 1920-1950 or so, being tuned somewhere between 1/2 and a whole step
lower. It also confirms somewhat many peopless anecdotal and subjective perception that their oud sounds best tuned lower.
In conversations with Najib Shaheen, he has indicated that it was common in his father's generation to tune to "B or Bb" rather than C (while still
presumably using C as the written reference in cases where written music was used).
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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I have long assumed that oud in general should not be tuned as high as CGDAFC, but never managed to find references for such an assumption, though I
tried to seek an answer in the Arabic music books I had encountered.
I use to tune my ouds a whole tone lower (Bb F C G Eb Bb) using regular 650 Pyramid strings set, and they sound much better. Lately, I tried low
tension Pyramid Lute set for antique/vintage ouds, hoping they'd sound better at A440, but was disappointed. Even with such strings, my antique oud
sounded much better a whole step lower.
This issue may deserve a new topic : "Tuning oud; Theory & Practice" or any similar topic. I count on jdowning to make the preliminary study for
such an interesting issue.
I shall be waiting to learn from you buddies.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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Yaron Naor
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Bat Hefer, Israel
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Mood: Happy
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The Nahhat in Action
Yair Dalal came to my studio to pick his new repaired Nahhat - and agree to make a small pocket camera video
Here is an image and a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMNeCEFGiUo&feature=youtu.be
Enjoy and thanks!
Yaron Naor
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Sounds good Yaron. Congratulations.
I shall mail the string fragments back to you tomorrow - they are labelled and numbered with reference to the string report.
Thanks for the interesting feedback about the pitch standards for oud tuning Brian and Alfaraby. This also confirms my experience with lutes that are
copies of surviving originals. Although strung with modern Pyramid nylon they do sound better when pitched a tone lower than nominal - i.e. as if
strung with gut.
I have some other information and thoughts about string design that may be of general interest so will take a cue from Alfaraby and incorporate them
into a new topic on this forum.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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What a great oud, what a great oud !
Nahat or not, who cares ?! It sounds heaven to me. Well, I'm sick on OLD ouds, so correct me if you think I'm wrong.
Our friend Nizar Rohana has a very close duplicate of this one, that sounds heaven as well. Just ask him
There's something, no Luthier upon Earth is capable to accomplish. Not even Usta Faruk, not even Master Kamil Mowais ... etc.; not even Nahat, Fadel
... etc. in their times, no matter how they've tried, if they've tried, they couldn't add AGE
to their ouds !
It seems there's still no substitute to this element in the contemporary Luthiery. Well, yet !
Play it in good health. Long live, the oud & the owner/player/Luthier.
Good luck
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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What a beauty, you brought it back to life! Speechless......
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Giorgioud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 287
Registered: 11-18-2011
Location: United Kingdom
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Mood: Oudbsessed
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Yaron,
I saw on youtube one of your creations, the mandolaoud. It is beautiful. I just wanted to ask you if you build electric ouds and how much are they.
Thanks in advance
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
Posts: 3485
Registered: 8-2-2006
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Note - as I have misinterpreted data given by Mimmo Peruffo on his website regarding the limitations of gut strings (Breaking Index and Acoustic
Quality Index - the examples given which appear to apply only to a lute in G tuning) I have completely revised my previous posting of July 16th.
So the reason for lowering standard pitch on older ouds has nothing to do with the frequency of gut top string breakage but may have more to do - for
whatever reason - with a need to reduce overall string tension related to the use of relatively heavy gauge gut strings.
However, more on this in a separate thread and apologies for any confusion created.
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Yaron Naor
Oud Junkie
Posts: 275
Registered: 1-24-2009
Location: Bat Hefer, Israel
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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| Quote: Originally posted by Giorgioud | Yaron,
I saw on youtube one of your creations, the mandolaoud. It is beautiful. I just wanted to ask you if you build electric ouds and how much are they.
Thanks in advance |
Yes, I build electric ouds... I will send you a U2U
Thank you all
Yaron Naor
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