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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: better than before
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Quote: Originally posted by baseelo  | Wonderful job Philip!!
I think that the best invention that any oud maker could come up with is a pegbox/pegs that minimizes the possibility of the srtings going out of
tune. This is an issue that is important to any oudy. So please put it on your future agenda of things to do!! |
The problem is not the pegbox or pegs, (unless you have poorly fitted pegs). The strings, the wood face and the body all expand and contract even with
small changes in temperature and humidity, so there is no solution to the problem of tuning. Otherwise it would have been solved for other stringed
instruments long ago, ya think? The best you can do is be sure your pegs are properly fitted so they don't slip, and keep your oud in a climate
controlled room and never take it out, 'cause it will surely change pitch.
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Philip Shaheen
Oud Admirer
Posts: 2
Registered: 12-31-2012
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my first post
I have no doubt that Dr. Oud and many more people have thought about building a carbon fiber oud. It is expected from scientific and industrial
aspects that it was only a matter of time till this happens. Bringing an idea to this level with such product is totally a different story.
I'm a die and mold engineer, cutting tools designer, a process innovator, craftsman and oud player, and above all an open-minded person who appreciate
the expertise of other people and get to learn from them. Hard work and patience is paid off at the end.
Wood of course, is "anisotropic" material (means that mechanical properties varies with the wood grain direction), but it is possible to simulate the
behavior of wood when you have the right knowledge, reference academic researches made on wood, scientific tools and the proper "pilot" behind the
wheel.
Moreover, what you have seen at the movie was the 4th vibration mode out of 6 vibration modes that me and my friend (PhD expert in sound and vibration
analysis) have done to compare the effect of different bracing pattern on the natural frequencies for two different sound boards, we kept the same
wood properties but changed the geometry (one must agree that this is possible) by the way !! We've considered the orientation of the wood grain for
the bracing too.
The contribution of the body to the sound ? A much more talented man than my self "Antonio de Torres Jurado" the famous guitar maker has said "back
and sides contribute very little to the sound quality"… assuming that the oud body have a major roll for the sound quality, what do you think would
happen with the oud sound when you hold it close to your body… I think it will be blocked by the human body.
I thought it will be most appropriate to adapt this concept for my oud…. It is fine with me if you choose to use a different technique.
Baseelo point of view: I believe this was a good hunch, when the wood is sensitive to weather condition, while carbon Fiber is not. When you deal with
100% wood oud you usually get 100% response to climate. With 60% carbon in the oud you only have to worry about 40% of the problem.
Pegs/pegs house, the angle and stiffness of the peg house are also very sensitive to tuning control.
I'm not a scientist, just an oud lover who is motivated by a charisma for innovation, a smile and thrill of other oud passionates when they meet this
oud. I'm expecting an objective criticism that promotes to improve the product.
I refuse to accept any credit that is not mine, but maybe I've succeeded to convince more forum members that this achievement deserves respect.
I truly believe that any support of the experienced forum members will contribute to bring this product even for higher levels.
Wish you all the best
Philip Shaheen
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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The concept that the back and sides of string instruments play no role in the timbre does not agree with experience, or current luthier thinking.
Tightly hugging my ouds sure changes the sound. Carbon may be usable, but it will somewhat affect the timbre, for better or worse, just as Ovation
guitars have a specific sound. It's not clear that it would solve the tuning issues.
The problem of tuning stability has been even more daunting when many more strings are involved, and has been attacked for centuries. The modern piano
has overcome it with an all iron frame, not too practical for an oud. But short of that, even instruments made of synthetics exhibit shifts, because
even minimally humidity/temp reactive materials stretch. The changes can then be magnified or reduced by specific geometries.
Many harpsichords have been built with different materials to improve tuning stability, with poor results. Only John Challis' all-aluminum design has
worked well. On the oud it's doubtful that what is, on a good instrument, a minor tuning drift, would disappear just by using a synthetic bowl. The
strings alone play a significant role.
And it's an interesting fact that long style clavichords, made entirely of wood, are generally very stable, while other instruments in the same room
go desperately out of tune.
http://www.hpschd.nu/index.html?nav/nav-4.html&t/welcome.html&a...
It is believed that it's due to the way different wooden members in the design work against each other, creating a self-compensating geometry. I have
a Zuckermann like that.
I bring that up because it suggests that, perhaps by adding some cross-members, or specific bracing, an oud could be made much more stable than usual,
without using metal or synthetics. It's a design more than just a materials issue, I think. Some existing (all wood) ouds are more stable than others.
As to the all-carbon fiber oud, if the whole bowl/neck/pegbox is all one piece, I suppose it might be rigid enough to help. But in practice (with the
other parts and strings) does it really hold tuning perfectly?
Such an oud could probably be mass-produced, and there's room for different approaches, though people are attracted to wood. Not just ouds. Electric
guitars could be made of anything, yet most players always come back to wood. No offense intended, your carbon ouds can be wonderful on their own
merits.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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A question for Philip,
When playing the carbon ouds you have made, do you feel it in your gut? I ask this because when playing a good wooden oud, often you can feel the
vibrations coming from the bowl into your belly.
to me, this is the indication that the back of the oud plays a part in the sound however minute. Perhaps by absorbing vibrations or not absorbing them
as much depending on the species of wood or now depending on the material wood vs carbon.
From the videos you posted, it seems like the oud projects very loudly. much louder than a traditional oud. The ouds do sound new so it will be
interesting to see how the carbon oud sounds with a top that has been aged a few years. I find from experience after a oud reaches 7-10 years you can
really start to hear a difference in the sound.
As for tuning, mechanical violin "peg heads" and other devises have been invented to hold the tuning. My opinino is that its fair to say the problem
lies just as much with the strings which constanly strech no mater what. There might be a point when you feel they are being relatively stable (in a
stable atmospheric enviorment also) but you just may no longer notice they are streching however they surely they are constantly streching as long as
tension is applied to them. Perhaps different string material would solve this issue but not without changing the tone of the oud we have come to
apreciate.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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Philip Shaheen
Oud Admirer
Posts: 2
Registered: 12-31-2012
Member Is Offline
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Answer to Samir
"When playing the carbon ouds you have made, do you feel it in your gut? " – NO
Actually it was the first remark I had from an oud player a friend of mine, he said "I feel that the sound is moving away from me, could not feel it
in my body".
I also didn't notice it my self, even when I tried a lot of times with 4 ouds I have for the past two days. I think this feeling is individual, maybe
it can be measured, let me think about it….
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hussamd
Oud Junkie
Posts: 117
Registered: 12-18-2013
Location: Bartlett, IL
Member Is Offline
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Any updates on this topic? I watched the clips and the oud sounded wonderful. I have mixed feelings on this topic since beauty is one integral piece
of this instrument (to me at least), along with a rich voice. The fancy woodwork on some ouds is breathtaking. Personally I would rather see the
nice wood grain so if I get yelled at when playing it, I can at least use it as art 
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