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Jody Stecher
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As I understand it, in the raga time cycle each unassembled kit of pitches is thought to be objectively corresponding to the energies of each time of
day. This is just a bucket of pitches, without phrases, without chalan (the pathway, like seyir), without characteristic phrases, without araho/avarho
(ascent/descent), without stronger and weaker pitches, without aesthetics, even without ragas. Once these pitches are assembled as ragas, then the
human element comes in, with beauty and aesthetics and feelings and states of mind.
Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens  | | Amazing discussion guys, I love this topic of what 'arbitrary' means in the context of improvised modal music. I've talked with Sami about this too
and one thing I really remember him saying is the notion that the only reason any musical pattern or idea exists is because the people who played it
and listened to it "liked the way it sounded". This got me thinking about what I know about the Raga Samay cycle of north indian classical music.
Basically their idea of certain note combinations being INTRINSICALLY related to certain moods/times of day/seasons seems to me to conflict with the
notion of music being arbitrary, or even the idea that beauty is subjective. |
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Chris-Stephens
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Thanks Jody, yes that's my understanding as well but the key word there is Objectively! What a fun topic to explore. Thinking about it more it almost
seems like the main point is that certain pitches, intervals, and relationships between notes and Sa (tonic) are felt the same way in the human
mind/emotion apparatus regardless of culture. Like Komal Re (flat 2nd) is an intrinsically heavy feeling, based on objective mathematical facts about
harmonic relationships and the acousic series. We dont just create the feeling of heavyness based on our culture, the sound itself is actually heavy!
It also seems to me to that the music is reflecting nature or some all encompassing truth about sound, mood, and life in general not just because it
"sounds good" or even that it sounds beautiful as some of the music is purposefully unpleasant and dissonant. Im thinking of the uneasy ragas Lalit
and Todi and how they sound compared with the early morning hours, they sound groggy off-balance and maybe even a little cranky. Saba has this flavor
too, its intervals are associated with sadness and longing because there is so much conflict between the notes. Compared with night ragas Bhupali and
Malkauns which are so soothing one can fall asleep to their easy pentatonic intervals.
There are even ideas like the sequences of notes (thaat) following the sun on its journey across the sky, the intervals climbing in the
morning/afternoon and descending in the evening/night. I imagine this is a very very old idea that has since been lost everywhere but India. As Navid
postulated in some ancient proto-music language that faded away as our "understanding" of the world became more rational, less pagan ya know 
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Jody Stecher
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A few things come to mind.
Lalit is traditionally the first raga of dawn. Its name denotes purity and delicacy. The day is so young it has not acquired characteristics. There
is transparency rather than color. Todi is traditionally performed (my silly spell-corrector wants the word to be "perfumed") in the late morning. And
yet if you take the natural 4 (shuddh ma) of Lalit and call it Sa (tonic) you get the pitches of Todi. Ravi Shankar tells the story of hearing an All
India Radio raga broadcast at some distance from the radio. All that could be heard was the voice or instrument; there was no audible drone. Some said
the raga was Todi, others said Lalit. Just an anecdote; I have no particular point to make.
Doesn't "sabah" mean "dawn" in Turkish?
I agree about the potential for downward pull of the flat second. It is made exquisitely heavy in Todi, Shree, Marwa, etc. But this can be overcome.
The flat 2 in Puria or Multani has no weight at all.
The mode clock idea seems to have survived in the Andalus music of Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia. at least into some of the 20th century. At this
point I don't know if it is considered a historical curiosity or is taken more seriously.
| Quote: Originally posted by Chris-Stephens | Thanks Jody, yes that's my understanding as well but the key word there is Objectively! What a fun topic to explore. Thinking about it more it almost
seems like the main point is that certain pitches, intervals, and relationships between notes and Sa (tonic) are felt the same way in the human
mind/emotion apparatus regardless of culture. Like Komal Re (flat 2nd) is an intrinsically heavy feeling, based on objective mathematical facts about
harmonic relationships and the acousic series. We dont just create the feeling of heavyness based on our culture, the sound itself is actually heavy!
It also seems to me to that the music is reflecting nature or some all encompassing truth about sound, mood, and life in general not just because it
"sounds good" or even that it sounds beautiful as some of the music is purposefully unpleasant and dissonant. Im thinking of the uneasy ragas Lalit
and Todi and how they sound compared with the early morning hours, they sound groggy off-balance and maybe even a little cranky. Saba has this flavor
too, its intervals are associated with sadness and longing because there is so much conflict between the notes. Compared with night ragas Bhupali and
Malkauns which are so soothing one can fall asleep to their easy pentatonic intervals.
There are even ideas like the sequences of notes (thaat) following the sun on its journey across the sky, the intervals climbing in the
morning/afternoon and descending in the evening/night. I imagine this is a very very old idea that has since been lost everywhere but India. As Navid
postulated in some ancient proto-music language that faded away as our "understanding" of the world became more rational, less pagan ya know
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Chris-Stephens
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Registered: 5-19-2016
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Sabah means dawn in Turkish and Farsi but comes from the Arabic word Sbah with the emphatic S in the beginning and guttural H at the end. (cant use
abjad script here?!) Is the maqam/jins Saba related to the dawn somehow? That would be an interesting connection, with "uneasy" musical intervals
being related to the early morning...
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majnuunNavid
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Mood: Dude, where's my Oud?
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I imagine the meaning of Saba is likely "to desire (someone)" as this dictionary suggests. https://www.almaany.com/en/dict/ar-en/%D8%B5%D9%8E%D8%A8%D8%A7/
The sound of the maqam to me definitely evokes the longing and drive of desire.
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