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Mike's Oud Forums » General Oud Forum » Ouds, Ouds, Ouds » Native Players vs. Foreigners

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DavidJE

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posted on 6-24-2014 at 12:43 AM

Thank you Jono!!! This is awesome.

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-24-2014 at 11:55 AM

It would be good to get this old repertoire more known.
Old is new. :cool:

This old style really shows the mix of Persian, Arabic, North African, Turkish, Central Asian and even Indian influences.
Sometimes a piece, or parts of a piece sound very Persian, Turkish, Arabic etc.

The 5 main streams of modern maqam based music are represented by one universal style, (Persian, Arabic, North African, Turkish and Central Asian).

This reminds me of the Jazz phenomenon - a truly multicultural art music.

The pieces by Indian composers are also a link to the Mughal music of the 16th century that was a fusion of Turkish/Persian (Central Asian - Timurid) and North Indian raga music.

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-24-2014 at 01:38 PM

Also, appropriate to this topic..

Ali Ufki (formerly known as Wojciech Bobowski) was originally a Polish Protestant Christian.
Demetrie Cantemir was a Moldavian Prince who interestingly also became a Freemason.
Both composed in the style of the Ottoman Court, and made (in the case of Cantemir) significant advances and contributions to the music and music theory and history.

The composers represented in the collections came from a wide variety of geographical locations, ethnicity's and religious backgrounds - Greek, Balkan, Jewish, Armenian, Italian, Berber, African, Afghan, Mongol and Indian along with Kurdish, Persian, Arab and Turkish.
There is even a French composer called 'Frank Mustapha' in the Ali Ufki collection.

So it would seem that the maqam tradition is a truly universal one.

Of course the theory and jins/modal style music can be traced back to Ancient Greece, and before that Egypt and Babylon.

The pictures are - Ali Ufki, the castle where he was captured from in the Polish, Tatar/Ottoman war, Prince Demetrie Cantemir, and Khan Timur (Tamerlane) receiving the Armenian ambassador in a Mughal miniature.

[file]31908[/file] [file]31910[/file]

[file]31912[/file]

[file]31916[/file]

DavidJE

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posted on 6-24-2014 at 10:32 PM

Again, very interesting Jono. Thanks.

You mentioned Owen Wright's book. Which book are you talking about? Is it available for purchase? Is that were the information you posted is coming from?

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 12:01 AM

Hey.

It is really cool you are interested in this subject too

DavidJE

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 04:53 AM

Thanks a lot Jono. Very cool material. This will be relatively short as I have a "meeting" in a moment...

$800US is a bit much for the Cantermir collection of notation. I think I'm going to pass on that one, as much as I'd like to have it. Are the compositions shown in western notation?

The commentary by Owen Wright and Music of the Ottoman Court books are relatively affordable. I'll likely get one of those. A question though... Do either of those books also have music in western notation?

I will definitely check out the other books you linked to. Thanks again!

EDIT: I just bought/ordered "Meanings in Turkish Musical Culture", "Prince Dimitrie Cantemir: Theorist and composer of Turkish Music", "Journeys of a Sufi Musician", and "A Catalogue of the Turkish Makams".

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 12:01 PM

Hey.

I am really happy to have others to communicate with who are interested in the historical styles as well

The book is ridiculously expensive.
Fortunately I got the last copy from SOAS for about $120 US.
It is silly that the commentary is easy to get but the actual pieces are not.
The book is in Turkish notation, I just transpose down a fifth to Western /Arabic/Persian pitch. Sometimes I have changed the rhythmic grouping and made a couple of minor corrections. I have another book by Yalcin Tura that has the original notation of Cantemir and some of his transcriptions. I just have the first edition though which has the treatise of Cantemir in Turkish and some notations.
This is version 2 with all the notations I think:

http://www.nadirkitap.com/kitabu-ilmi-l-musiki-ala-vechi-l-hurufat-...

This book was really hard to find, this is where I got the Ali Ufki book from.
This is a cheaper (I think) option and it also shows Cantemir's notation system (based on Arabic letters for melody and numerals for pitch), alongside Turkish pitch Western notation.

Awesome you got the books!

'Meanings in Turkish Musical Culture' is very good and Owen Wright has referred to this often also.

By far the best book is the Ottoman Court one, but they are all excellent sources.

I am half way through a DMA (PHD and performance 50/50), entitled 'Interpreting the Early Ottoman Repertoire as Notated by Demetrius Cantemir (1673–1723)'.

Since I begun this study I have also acquired the Ali Ufki book and another book with Christian hymns from the Genevan Psalter set to maqams by Ali Ufki.

http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=zBK983731VJ440

[file]31918[/file]

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 12:17 PM

There is a third source of early Ottoman music by a 18th century Sufi musician called Kevseri.
His collection contains over 500 pieces (including all the Cantemir ones) and is still awaiting a critical edition.
Kevseri also used Cantemir's system of notation.
It has been previously very difficult to get access too as it is in private hands.

I bought this article which is really interesting about this:

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=onlin...

Eugenia Popescu Judetz has transcribed a couple of pieces and has good information in Turkish about it:

http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=zBK980177KJ800

This book is coming out next month:

http://www.ashgate.com/default.aspx?page=637&calcTitle=1&pa...

Really looking forward to it, amazing work by Dr Owen Wright again.

sbj

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 02:11 PM

@Jono

I am suprised that you have so much deep sources about Turkish music.

Can I ask you a private question? Are you a professional musician and do you teach at a university or something like that? Else I can not imagine why a "westerner" has so much information about our music. Because our music (or poetry, art, and so on) is merely known by western people, just by scholarly persons sadly.
Kudsi Erguner or Yalcin Tura are real intellectuals of Turkey. Knowing them or having contact to them is just awesome.
I wish I could have your knowledge. Congratulations.

Jody Stecher

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 02:59 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z

Hey.

'Meanings in Turkish Musical Culture' is very good and Owen Wright has referred to this often also.

and considerably less expensive when ordered via Amazon USA instead of the UK site.

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 07:30 PM

Quote:

@Jono I am suprised that you have so much deep sources about Turkish music. Can I ask you a private question? Are you a professional musician and do you teach at a university or something like that? Else I can not imagine why a "westerner" has so much information about our music. Because our music (or poetry, art, and so on) is merely known by western people, just by scholarly persons sadly. Kudsi Erguner or Yalcin Tura are real intellectuals of Turkey. Knowing them or having contact to them is just awesome. I wish I could have your knowledge. Congratulations.

Hey

Thanks for the encouragement.
Much appreciated.

My interest in maqam music occurred after studying Jazz and Medieval Western music.
For me the maqam based music is the best music.

I am doing a PHD and performance in Early Ottoman music at Canterbury University New Zealand, and have been studying this music for around 10 years.
I play the oud and nay.

Some recordings:

https://soundcloud.com/oud-player-nz

I love all maqam based music from North Africa to China.
At the moment my style is attempting to be a mix of Turkish, Persian and Arabic styles to recreate the older music (pre 1700).
It has taken 1000's of hours of listening to music from a wide region to learn this beautiful but difficult music.

Kudsi Erguner is one of my favorite musicians.
I have been in touch with Mehmet Kemiksiz about Bezmara and Sufi music also.

At the moment I am listening to a lot of Persian music, Sima Bina, Hossein Alizadeh and Hossein Omoumi.

I also love miniature paintings, I was an artist originally and am completely obsessed with all history.

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-25-2014 at 07:44 PM

DavidJE

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posted on 6-26-2014 at 12:20 AM

Quote:

I am really happy to have others to communicate with who are interested in the historical styles as well

I feel that knowing the background of this music is very important, if not essential, for a person who really wants to get to the heart of it...to play it and understand the depth of it. I've only been playing the oud and makam music for 1.5 years now, and other than that I only played the clarinet as a kid. So I'm really a beginner in all of this...probably not of much value in terms of communication on the subject, yet. But I have been reading as much as I can find on Turkish and Arabic music. I find it all extremely interesting.

Quote:

The book is in Turkish notation, I just transpose down a fifth to Western /Arabic/Persian pitch.

I'm more accustomed to Turkish notation anyway, but am also starting to play pieces in Arabic/Western notation...so that's ok.

I've just also purchased "Music of the Ottoman Court" by Walter Feldman, since you recommended it so highly. I look forward to reading these books!

Quote:

I am half way through a DMA (PHD and performance 50/50), entitled 'Interpreting the Early Ottoman Repertoire as Notated by Demetrius Cantemir (1673–1723)'.

That sounds great. I'm very busy now between work and hobbies, but I occasionally think about going back to school and studying music (only for fun/enjoyment). Although, then I wonder if it wouldn't be "better" to simply study it on my own...through private instruction, books, etc.

I'll check out your SoundCloud page and the YouTube links in a little while. Thanks again for all of the information and resources!

sbj

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posted on 6-26-2014 at 02:43 AM

@Jono

Well from what I see you already know every master of Turkish music. I really wish I could have your technical knowledge ( I even can't read a music sheet).
I thought that I am far away from makam music (I'm from Germany but Turkish citizen) but you are from New Zealand. I am so shocked and thought about 30 minutes how someone from NZ can have contact to such a music. I can not think about one reason. It is like someone from Africa is trying to play ice hockey

. Wow, just awesome.
At least I was right with you must be a scholar.

If you listen at the moment to Persian music and to early 1600 music, I guess you already checked out Maragali Abdülkadir (stupid question I know). He was a Turk and did Turkish music but the lingua franca was Farsi, so the lyrics were Farsi.
And as you know nadirkitap, you must already have found the book from Murat Bardakci (PAN publishing) I guess.
I listened in one of his tv programs to recordings of Persian musicians. Murat Bardakci said (he is maybe the best Turkish intellectual alive) that the Persians interpretations of Abdülkadir Meragi were the best ones because they show the real impact of Turkish music. Today our music is a little bit slow and heavy and he criticizes that it must be thumping.
I try to remember their names, sadly back at that time I could not find their recordings on the internet.
Ok, after searching for 20 minutes I found it (at 1:00 it starts).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veGpAgkyDXg
The notations from Rauf Yekta Bey and with Persian instruments.
They are called the Abdülkadir Meragi Ensemble (don't know their original Farsi names) but maybe you will find more if you look for Hümayun Seceryan which is the lead singer I guess (there is another recording from Murat Bardakci's tv program). But it could also be that you already know these people and recordings, in this case sorry for that.

Btw while I am chit chatting atm, can I ask for something?
Do you or anybody else have other recordings of Darb-i Feht from this recording? It is Cantemir No. 209 it says. I love this so much, it is just wonderful and lovely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BQYRqgrXM8
The first recording up to 03:59.

@DavidJE

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-26-2014 at 10:44 PM

Quote:

Totally.
This music (maqam) has unsurpassed depth and history.
Well worth the time and effort.
It seems to be inexhaustible also, I have heard it said that it takes more than one lifetime to know all the maqamat and possibilities.
As a composer and obsessive nutter this suits me well

Currently I am trying to get as much Persian music into my head as possible (after over a month or so of Persian playing albums over and over).
This has eventually started to affect my nay and oud playing.
Many of the old Ottoman pieces contain strong Persian flavours.
Previously I have listened to more Turkish and Arabic music.

Quote:

Thanks again for all of the information and resources!

I am really happy to have more people who share the same interests

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-26-2014 at 10:53 PM

Quote:

Well from what I see you already know every master of Turkish music. I really wish I could have your technical knowledge ( I even can't read a music sheet). I thought that I am far away from makam music (I'm from Germany but Turkish citizen) but you are from New Zealand. I am so shocked and thought about 30 minutes how someone from NZ can have contact to such a music. I can not think about one reason. It is like someone from Africa is trying to play ice hockey

. Wow, just awesome. At least I was right with you must be a scholar. If you listen at the moment to Persian music and to early 1600 music, I guess you already checked out Maragali Abdülkadir (stupid question I know). He was a Turk and did Turkish music but the lingua franca was Farsi, so the lyrics were Farsi. And as you know nadirkitap, you must already have found the book from Murat Bardakci (PAN publishing) I guess. I listened in one of his tv programs to recordings of Persian musicians. Murat Bardakci said (he is maybe the best Turkish intellectual alive) that the Persians interpretations of Abdülkadir Meragi were the best ones because they show the real impact of Turkish music. Today our music is a little bit slow and heavy and he criticizes that it must be thumping. I try to remember their names, sadly back at that time I could not find their recordings on the internet. Ok, after searching for 20 minutes I found it (at 1:00 it starts). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veGpAgkyDXg The notations from Rauf Yekta Bey and with Persian instruments. They are called the Abdülkadir Meragi Ensemble (don't know their original Farsi names) but maybe you will find more if you look for Hümayun Seceryan which is the lead singer I guess (there is another recording from Murat Bardakci's tv program). But it could also be that you already know these people and recordings, in this case sorry for that.

I am always discovering new artists.
I go through phases of listening to one stream of the maqam; sometimes Turkish, Arabic, Persian, Central Asian etc.
Mehmet Bitmez is one of my favorite oud players from Turkey.
Also Akagunduz Kutbay nay playing is very meditative and wise as well as being technically amazing and inventive.

http://www.yorku.ca/robsimms/Akagunduz_taksims.pdf

LOL about the hockey :cool:

Yes I know Abdul Qadir Maraghi and have read that he is the grandfather of Ottoman music.
There is one of his pieces that has been recently found by master oud player and scholar Kyriakos Kalaitzidis in his recent book 'Post-Byzantine Music Manuscripts as a Source for Oriental Secular Music (15th to Early 19th Century).
This piece was notated in Byzantine notation.

Murat Bardakcı is new to me although I have heard his name.
Thanks!

I will read about his work.
I did not know of his Abdul Qadir book, and will definitely get it.
It is also on Tulumba, where I get a lot of my Turkish music books from.

http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=zBK983840DJ472

This looks really good also:

http://www.tulumba.com/storeItem.asp?ic=zBK339393JG657

Cem Behar is another top Turkish scholar on this subject.
His article in the Cambridge History of Turkey (Vol III) on Ottoman music is very good and I have his book of transcriptions of the Psalms of Ali Ufki.

The recording of the Kar piece you sent is really good.
Thanks!

There are not many recordings of this type of song as you know.
I have some recordings of some of Abdul Qadir's ones.
(Ensemble Maraghi, Kudsi Erguner).

The Cantemir piece is really cool, I have this album.
Jordi Savall is another huge influence on rediscovering and interpreting early music.

The Darb-i Feht rhythm (88/8) was apparently an invention of Maraghi (see attachment).

From 'Persian Writing on Music, A Study of Persian Musical Literature from 1000 to 1500' page 175 by Merhdad Fallahzadeh

Thanks again DavidJE and Sbj for bringing this topic up.

Really interesting.

[file]31919[/file] [file]31921[/file]

[file]31925[/file]

[file]31927[/file]

Also, Sbj, I am a big fan of Orhan Pamuk and have read 'My name is Red' and 'The Black book', excellent and so full of layers of history.
I will read 'The White Castle' soon, it may relate to Ali Ufki.. (Polish - Ottoman war).

DavidJE

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posted on 6-27-2014 at 12:22 AM

Quote:

Sorry for hijacking your thread.

No...this is on topic, in my opinion. It shows how well someone like Jono has been able to study Turkish/Arabic/Persian music without being a "native". And the resources in this thread will most definitely be helpful for non-native (and native) musicians.

Again...great stuff Jono.

sbj

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posted on 6-27-2014 at 04:00 AM

@DavidJE

Yeah, you are right I guess.

@Jono

Well, Murat Bardakci is a friend with most of the names mentioned here (the big names). When he talks about Aka Gündüz Kutbay, he says "abi" which means brother. So there is nobody he doesn't know or any topic he has no clue about.
Yeah, definitely check out his works if you can read Turkish.

Whereas Orhan Pamuk... hmm...
This is a difficult thing. I didn't read any of his books. But I can tell you that his nobel prize was a political one. He has 2 books which are rip-offs, one is The White Castle.
His political views made him to that what he is. But I am not into Turkish Modern Literature, so I can not talk about this.
One of his rip-offs was from an American writer. It is impossible that the Nobel Committee couldn't know this but still they give him the prize.
I guess you read the translations, so in English. But if you can read Turkish, I can suggest you Iskender Pala's books.
Great man, great knowledge about history and his books are full with the flavour of old times.

Thanks for the sources. Wish you both a good day.

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-27-2014 at 08:23 AM

Quote:

Well, Murat Bardakci is a friend with most of the names mentioned here (the big names). When he talks about Aka Gündüz Kutbay, he says "abi" which means brother. So there is nobody he doesn't know or any topic he has no clue about. Yeah, definitely check out his works if you can read Turkish.

I am getting better at reading Turkish and will continue to learn more of the language for sure.
Thanks again! Murat Bardakci is an amazing source

Quote:

Whereas Orhan Pamuk... hmm... This is a difficult thing. I didn't read any of his books. But I can tell you that his nobel prize was a political one. He has 2 books which are rip-offs, one is The White Castle. His political views made him to that what he is. But I am not into Turkish Modern Literature, so I can not talk about this. One of his rip-offs was from an American writer. It is impossible that the Nobel Committee couldn't know this but still they give him the prize. I guess you read the translations, so in English. But if you can read Turkish, I can suggest you Iskender Pala's books. Great man, great knowledge about history and his books are full with the flavour of old times.

When I was in Istanbul in 2009, a friend I met in Turkey said the same thing about Pamuk.
Disappointing if this is the case - plagiarism.
The book 'My Name is Red' was the best though, it is about miniature painters in Istanbul in the 1500's and helped me understand the very complex Turkish - Persian relations throughout history concerning the Arts.
I will check out Iskender Pala (as I work on my Turkish..) as he seems to much better and not a pawn in world chess.

Have a good day too

sbj

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posted on 6-27-2014 at 01:50 PM

If you are interested in miniatures, I guess you should check out Nurhan Atasoy's book called Turkish Miniature Painting (I think it is in English).
But this shouldn't be easy to find. I'm not into miniatures, I guess there are other releases from those big universities such as Cambridge. As a scholar you surely did find more materials than I can ever tell you. I have just some amateur information about some topics.
Ah and if you need help with Turkish, I can help you.

@DavidJE

I want to apology for hijacking. I dedicate this song(s) to you as you are from New Orleans and I love Louis Prima.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OQ7zRzrqfM

Jono Oud N.Z

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posted on 6-28-2014 at 12:44 PM

Hey.

Thanks again Sbj for another really helpful source.
I found Nurhan Atasoy's book.

Thank you for offering to help me with continuing to learn Turkish.
This is very helpful

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