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jdowning
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Thanks Adam - glad that the postcard is now in the safe hands of a forum member. Either way we will know what is on the other side - if anything!
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jdowning
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I have received a response this morning from Rene Krul the seller of the postcard but only to confirm that the card is sold with no other information.
So it is over to you Adam!
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hartun
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Mary in response to your question about Sari Gelin.
I find it kind of humorous how everyone thinks this is a "can of worms". There are so many other shared songs, but none of them get the obsession and
meaning attached to them that people have attached to "sari gelin".
The funny thing for me is, this has only been going on for approx. 10-15 years. I can only explain this from the perspective of an Armenian-American
musician of the traditional school. Before lets say, 2005, few Armenian-American musicians had heard of a song called "Sari Gelin". We did know the
song, but we called it "Yerevan Bagh Em Arel." Usually it's played in 10/8 but since the lyrics are in Eastern Armenian and it mentions Yerevan, I had
always assumed this is one of the many Eastern Armenian songs (i.e. the part of Armenia that was once part of Russia) originaly in 6/8 which was
adopted by the American-Armenian musicians, and played by them in 10/8 according to the Western-/Turkish-/Anatolian-Armenian style. Many of the
Armenian-American singers replace the word "Sari Gelin" with "Sari Aghchig" (mountain girl). However, just as many sing "Sari Gelin", even previous to
the song's newfound fame as a Turkish-Armenian "shared song" under the name "Sari Gelin". Another name for the song instead of "Yerevan Bagh Em Arel"
was "Nenni Aman" (i.e. Neynim Aman, from the song's refrain).
the lyrics to the first verse are:
Yerevan bagh em arel, neynim aman, neynim aman, neynim aman
(x2)
Jigyars dagh em arel, boyit mernim, sari gelin, sari maral, sari jeyran, tarlan aghchig
(x2)
Onnik Dinkjian recorded the song Yerevan Bagh Em Arel in 1974, he used the famous "Dle Yaman" as an intro to it. Richard Hagopian recorded a live
instrumental version in 1964 and backed up Cypriot Armenian singer Varoujan Assadourian on a recording of the song in 1963. Assadourian however, sings
the lyrics a bit differently than the majority of Armenian-American musicians, so he isn't the one who introduced this song to them. The Vosbikian
Band recorded it sometime I believe in the 80s, with vocals by Jirair Hovnanian. However, based on the Vosbikians' typical MO, this song was probably
in their repertoire going back to the 50s at least. Although, the Vosbikians used the phrase "leyli aman" instead of "neynim aman", but otherwise
their version is the typical Armenian-American rendition (also including the word "gelin")
One would assume that this song was maybe learned by the American-Armenians from Soviet Armenian recordings. However, the most famous Soviet Armenian
recording of the song was made in the 70s or 80s by Roupen Matevosian, and uses completely different lyrics and at one point in the song there is a
difference of melody/shortenening of the melody. His version is entitled "Vart Siretsi" and the refrain is "dle aman" not "neynim aman". Pavel
Lisitsian also from Soviet Armenia also recorded the same "Vart Siretsi". His version is more similar to the Sari Gelin we know. I'm not sure when his
recording was made. Again, has completely different lyrics and no reference to Yerevan. Of course, both Soviet versions are in 6/8 time. Also both
versions have "sari aghchig" rather than "sari gelin". Anyway, my point is that the Armenian American musicians obviously didn't learn the song from
either of these recordings.
I believe I have seen either in person or on ebay, a 40s/50s Soviet made recording of a song called Yerevan Bagh Em Arel by one of the state music
ensembles. However, I haven't listened to this rendition, and it may not be the same song, as there are 2-3 other songs which also make use of the
verse "yerevan bagh em arel/jigyars dagh em arel". I don't think this is the source Armenian-Americans were listening to, either.
Finally, there is the song "Sari Gyalin" recorded by Shara Dalyan probably 30s. Dalyan was the son of an old Armenian minstrel family and knew
folklore well. This is essentially the same lyrics sung by the Istanbul-Armenian group Knar in their CD. (ambel a para para/yes im siradzin ch'ara).
The Knar group attributes this song to Erzurum (more on that below) and plays it in 10/8 while Dalyan 's version is in 6/8. Interestingly, while the
song "Yerevan bagh em arel" has the refrain "sari gelin, sari maral, sari jeyran, tarlan aghchig" (bride of the mountain, deer of the mountain,
gazelle of the mountain, "tarlan" girl) (i can't translate "tarlan", referring to a boy its translated "strapping"), which keeps the theme of the
armenian meaning of "sari" (=of the mountain) rather than the turkish meaning of "sari" (=blonde) throughout, (since deer of the mountain makes more
sense than "blonde deer"), in Shara Dalyan's version, he is quite clearly saying "Sarı" not "sar-ee" when he says "Sari gyalin". Anyway, this is
also not the source of this song for the Armenian-American community.
My assumption is that the song we now call Sari Gelin was introduced to the Armenian-American community with the 1920s New York recording "Yerevan
Bagh Em Arel" by Mrs. M Sourapian (Surabian). In this recording, which is definitely not a dance rendition by any stretch, Mrs Sourapian sings 2
verses accompanied by piano in a pseudo-operatic style, in 6/8 time. Mrs. Sourapian and her husband Mr. Sourapian (Setrak Surabian) were a musical duo
who recorded extensively on the Armenian owned Sohag label in NY in the 1920s. Most of their recordings were musical selections from the operetta
Arshin Mal Alan. Setrak Surabian was apparently from Tiflis and travelled the US performing in plays in the Armenian immigrant theatre circuit. I
assume his wife had a similar background. In any case, their music was decidedly "Russian Armenian." Mrs. Sourapian's rendition is catalogued in the
Sohag Records songbook which includes lyrics to her song. The printed lyrics have an extra 3rd verse. The 1st and 3rd verse of this version are the
verses most commonly sung among Armenian-Americans.
At some point, Vagharshag Srvantsdiants collected a folk song entitled "Yerevan Bagh Em Arel" and written sheet music for it. His version is in 6/8
and has the first and third verse but a different second verse. It seems to me he probably wrote down this song in America, because after fleeing
Constantinople in 1920 (where he had been a student of the Armenian folklorist Komitas) he settled in Fresno in 1928 and died there in 1958.
It is certainly strange that an Eastern Armenian folk song sung by Russian Armenian immigrants to the US in the 1920s was kept alive by
Armenian-American musicians while it seems to be unknown at least with those same lyrics, in Armenia. Of course, the Armenian-American musicians who
followed Mrs Sourapian were all of Western Armenian extraction and quite naturally played the song in 10/8 time as they did with every slow 6/8 song
they adopted from the Russian Armenian repertoire.
That would have been the end of the story if this had not been recognized as a song that also had a Turkish version. In fact, there is a Turkish and
an Azeri version which both have completely
different lyrics. The melody of the Azeri version and it's 6/8 time are more similar to the various Armenian versions, all of which have essentially
the same melody and which were originally all in 6/8.....or so we assume (read on)
The Turkish version, Erzurum Carsi Pazar, has a slightly different melody, and IT'S IN 10/8!!!!! But here is the interesting part - it's lyrics are
more similar to the Armenian. In both "Erzurum Carsi Pazar" and most Armenian versions of the song, there is the refrain "neynim aman" (or some
variation of it), and there is also the interjection "ninen olsun" (may your grandmother die) or in Armenian, "meret merni" (may your mother die)
which in later armenian versions was bowlderized to "boyit mernem" (may I die for your stature, a common phrase in folk songs). The Azeri version
doesn't have anything corresponding to that interjection nor does it have the "neynim aman" refrain. In general, the structure of the lyrics of
Erzurum Carsi Pazar are the same as almost all the Armenian versions of the song, while the Azeri version is decidedly different.
Also, the first word, composing three syllables, of the Turkish "Erzurum Carsi Pazar" and the Armenian "Yerevan Bagh Em Arel" is the name of a city -
Erzurum, Yerevan. In fact there are Turkish versions attested where the lyric is "Irevan Carsi Pazar" (referring to Yerevan).
The obvious conclusion is that the Armenian version is based on the Erzurum-Turkish version, or that they at least have the same roots.
The line "Yerevan bagh em arel" - I bought a vineyard in Yerevan, is interesting to say the least. Who goes around buying vineyards. And why is it
relevant that the vineyard was bought in Yerevan? Why doesn't the singer simply say that he bought a vineyard. Songs native to a particular region
usually don't describe someone doing something in that region, although they may describe the attributes of that region. It seems to me that the
person who came up with the line "Yerevan bagh em arel", has come to Yerevan from somewhere else, and bought a vineyard there, in order to settle
there.
This brings me to my theory of the origin of this song. During the Russo-Turkish War of the 1870s, Erzurum was occupied by the Russians. When the
Turks defeated them, many Armenians retreated with the Russian Army to settle in the (relatively) less oppressive environment of the Russian Caucasus.
There are actually a number of folk songs originating from Erzurum which were later known in places where these people settled, mostly Akhalkalak,
Akhaltsikhe, Kars, and Alexandropol (Gumri). I don't know if Sari Gelin is one of these songs, but it makes a lot of sense.
If an Armenian immigrant from Erzurum came and settled in Yerevan, he might very well have remembered the song Erzurum Carsi Pazar (10/8), or perhaps
an Armenian folk song, we can't be sure what, from his hometown of Erzurum, and when he came to Eastern Armenia, he created the lyric "Yerevan Bagh Em
Arel" (I bought a vineyard in Yerevan), describing his life situation. At the same time the song was adapted to the 6/8 rhythm of music native to
Caucasian (Russian) Armenia. The melody may have been slightly adapted too, when the Armenians heard some singing the Azeri version of the same song,
which has the same melody as the present Armenian version.
This would explain why the lyrics of the Armenian version correspond to "Erzurum Carsi Bazar" but the melody and meter corresponds to the Azeri "Sari
Gelin".
Of course this is all just speculation - any number of cultural interchanges could have led to the spectrum of versions of the song that we have now.
Perhaps the Azeri-Armenian melody is the original melody, and the Erzurum melody was later changed.
But it seems to me that when the early Armenian immigrants to the US heard on a record in the 1920s a lady singing "Yerevan Bagh Em Arel" in an
operatic voice, just maybe, some of them remembered this melody, or something like it, from the old country - especially if they were from Erzurum.
And if they couldn't remember the lyric that had been sung in Erzurum, or the lyrics had been in Turkish and they wanted to sing in Armenian, or they
just liked the "new" lyrics.....they might very well have taken that now classicized and Eastern-Armenian-ized song, "Yerevan Bagh Em Arel" and
reappropriated it to their own folk music style, playing it in 10/8, as it had originally been.......
then theres the whole thing about Turks saying it's a love story between a Turk and an Armenian...I have no idea. I think they said that based on the
fact that Armenians also have the same song and the bride is blonde, which is attributed to being Armenian as they were considered more European than
Turks.
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mary
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Wow, thanks Hartun. Really interesting... I first heard an instrumental version of this tune by an Azeri kamancha player (Imamyar Hasanov).... so
gorgeous that I started playing bowed instruments. and then last summer in Çemişgezek heard a Zaza friend play the 10/8 version. I know there
was a strong Armenian history there too, saw so many old Armenian stone bridges there and in the outskirts. Will look up some of the recordings you've
referenced here..... : )
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hartun
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Indeed there is a long history of Armenians in Cemisgezek. In Massachusetts there still exists a "Chumushgadzak Compatriotic Union" of Armenians from
that area. In the days of 1915 the Kurds of Dersim aided the Armenians and sheltered them from being murdered or deported.
Here are some of the recordings I mentioned:
Mrs. Sourapian (b. Tiflis?) sings Yerevan Bagh Em Arel in the 1920s, New York: unfortunately this is not available anywhere that I know of. One day,
when I complete digitizing my collection of 78s, I will make it available on the internet. But it's similar to the Shara Talyan interpretation, only
that the lyrics are different.
Shara Talyan (b. Tiflis) (1930s? maybe as late as 50s?, Soviet Armenia): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=005rFLraNf8
I have some interesting points about Shara Talyan's performance. First of all as you can hear in his song he clearly says Sarı Gyalin not Sari
Gyalin or Gelin. Which would show that this phrase, and possibly the whole song was intended originally to be in Turkish. Although, it's hard to tell
whether Shara Talyan's "Ambel a para para" or our "Yerevan Bagh em arel" is the older song. Another interesting point is that the dialect of the song
is a mixture of Eastern and Western Armenian. I'm not a true expert of Armenian dialects but this would match the dialect of Gumri where Talyan's
family was from. Interestingly, Gumri though located in Eastern Armenia was considered to be part of the dialect area of the Armenian dialect of
Erzurum. This is because Gumri along with the Javakheti region of Georgia was settled in the 1800s by Armenians from the Erzurum and Kars regions of
Turkey. Originally Gumri was a small village and it only became a major city after the influx of these immigrants and the establishment of Russian
rule in the early 1800s. As I said earlier since we know that all the Armenian versions of Sari Gyalin match to the Turkish Erzurum Carsi Pazar this
would indicate that the song originated in the Erzurum area and was brought to Russian Armenia in the 1800s by immigrants from that region as were
many other songs.
Rupen Baboyan (b. Van) (Fresno, 1939) - sings the same lyrics as sung by Mrs. Sourapian, based on the style of most of his repertoire, he probably
learned the song from her record rather than the oral tradition: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?cowellbib:12:./temp/~ammem_M1...
(this Library of Congress collection of California folk music is very valuable for old mostly European and Eastern European music, but also includes
quite a few Armenian examples. As far as I can tell there are no examples of Greek or other Middle Eastern styles, although there is a section
labelled "Assyrian" it appears to simply show pictures of an Assyrian man with his tar, with no recordings. I think there was another collection done
in Florida where they got some Greek songs from the inhabitants of Tarpon Springs)
Pavel Lisitsyan (b. Vladikavkaz) (Soviet Union, unknown year, my guess is sometime in the 1960s? though hypothetically it could be as early as the
40s): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xb0lTy6DX8
Varoujan Assadourian (b. Cyprus) with Richard Hagopian and Orchestra (all b. Fresno) (Fresno, 1963): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5jzF2dhyc
as you all know, Richard Hagopian is known as a master oud player and also usually performs as singer during his performances. In this, his first
album, Assadourian is the vocalist, and Richard actually plays kanun on a few tracks including this one!!! While Richard is playing kanun, his good
friend Allan Jendian is playing oud. (On most of the album Richard plays oud and Jendian plays
violin). Percussion is by Tom Bozigian, the well known Armenian folk dance expert. Tom, Allan, and Richard grew up together in Fresno. Also on this
album is Margaret Nahabedian on piano. I have a good feeling she was born in Fresno too.
Richard Hagopian and Orchestra (LP: An Evening At The Seventh Veil [Live]) (Hollywood, 1964): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA6OOGwHl2A
This track is entitled "Armenian Medley" a medley of numbers in 10/8: Naz Bar, Yerevan Bagh Em Arel (at about 1:47), and Sari Siroon Yar. Musicians
are Richard on oud (vocals on one track), Jack Chalikian (b. New York) on kanun, Tsolak Sanasarian (b. Baghdad) on dumbeg, Leila Badalian (belly
dancer of Persian-Armenian background) on tambourine and finger cymbals.
Despite cover art of "sexy belly dancer" this album includes mostly Armenian folk dance music, I recommended checking out the other tracks as well.
Onnik Dinkjian (b. Paris) - recorded the song in 1974 but I can't find it on youtube. I don't think it's available anywhere on CD. But here is a live
video of him singing it in the same way (with John Berberian (b. NY) on oud), in Westchester Co. NY 1996 at a church picnic. A great live
performance!!! As I said he prefaces the song with "Dle Yaman": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu5BnshfCwM
Vosbikian Band (all b. Philadelphia but vocalist Jirair Hovnanian b. Baghdad): again this version is nowhere on youtube, although it is available on
CD, on "Vosbikian Band Volume 6". It has to be mentioned that the Vosbikians heavily "Americanized" their Armenian music, it should also be said that
this was simply due to the fact that they weren't learned in Eastern makams, etc. They just played they only way they knew, but they played from the
heart - they didn't make an attempt to make the music "smoother" or "more modern". There is a lot more feeling in their performances than in those of
some who do play according to the Middle Eastern tonality.
Rouben Matevosian (b. Soviet Armenia) (Soviet Armenia, 1970s?): sings "Vart Siretsi" (Sari Aghchig), almost the same as the Lisitsyan version, but
more in a folk vein. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MpR2nx0K5E
In 2002 the Aravod Ensemble, a young Armenian-American dance band, came out with their first album "Until The Night". One of the selections was
Yerevan Bagh Em Arel (i.e. Sari Gelin), entitled as "I bought an Orchard In Yerevan". I can remember at the time, when that album came out, at least
where I was living the so called "Sari Gelin Turkish-Armenian controversy" had not yet reached us. Most likely it had not yet exploded... It seems
that the controversy may have started when Kardes Turkuler recorded the Armenian version in 1997 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=897AbBF2jak but it took a while for this to penetrate to the Armenian Diaspora...note that Kardes Turkuler plays
the same version as Shara Talyan and in 6/8....later this was also done by Turkish-Armenian folk group Knar but in 10/8
and then back to Onnik, live in Istanbul in 2013 (musicians listed in info section of video)...although Onnik sings the song as Yerevan Bagh Em Arel
according to how he learned it, the Turkish-Armenian person videotaping the concert labelled the song as "Sari Gyalin".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mcncFLs0so
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hartun
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certainly i can understand your being moved by a performance of this song to take up bowed instruments.  it's a very good and moving melody which contributes to its ongoing popularity among all the peoples of the region.
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DivanMakam
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@Hartun
Without having a prejudice, what is your opinion about this "can of worms" when we talk about its origin?
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mary
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One more question Hartun- do you know of any good sources in English re: the Armenians around the Çemişgezek region..... (or that region in
general)? My Turkish isn't good enough for that conversation with my Zaza friend- who might not really know anyway. It's a fascinating- and quite
beautiful- area. I was lucky enough to spend a week there traipsing in the hinterlands and visiting summer goat pastures waaaaay up in the
mountains.... I had no idea there was an organization of folk in Massachusetts.... will look that one up too.
I also came across this recently, if you haven't yet:
http://www.ottomanhistorypodcast.com/2011/09/shared-traditions-in-t...
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hartun
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@Divan Makam
Do you mean, do I think it is of Armenian or Turkish origin? Or what is my opinion of the fact that this is, for many people, controversial?
@Mary
There are two books I know of on Chmshgadzak but they are in Armenian, and rare as well. There is also this website: http://www.houshamadyan.org/en/mapottomanempire/vilayetofmamuratula...
I have linked to the page on Dersim however the whole website has many articles about Armenian life in various parts of the Ottoman Empire. The
editors have compiled this information from Armenian books written by exiles from those lands from the 30s-70s, such as the books I mentioned.
Unfortunately the section on Dersim has only two articles, one on the population statistics of Armenians and one on the various Armenian schools in
the villages. However, there are some cool pictures.
There are 3 collections of folk songs from Chmshgadzak by Armenians. One was made by Mihran Toumajan and the other by Avedis Mesouments and the third
is I think anonymous. These are extremely rare and to my knowledge noone has attempted to recreate these songs with the exception of Kurdish musician
Mikail Aslan in his album "Petag", which I think didn't really come out right since he based it on the Toumajan collection, and Toumajan unfortunately
didn't seem to have a good grasp of Anatolian rhythms, nevertheless it was a noble effort indeed, since no Armenian ever bothered to try and recreate
those songs....of course this is all in Armenian too
The "kef time" singer now deceased, Mike Sarkissian was born to a mother from Chmshgadzak. I don't think any of his material consists of folk songs
from that area however, with a few possible exceptions....
As the Houshamadyan article notes, Armenians from the Dersim considered themselves "Kharpertsi" (people of Harput) since they were in its Vilayet and
they considered themselves socially and culturally part of the same region. When they talked about Dersimtsi people they were talking about the Kurds
and Armenians who lived up in the mountains in a majority Kurdish area.
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hartun
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interesting will have to listen to full podcast when i have the time
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DivanMakam
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Quote: Originally posted by hartun  | @Divan Makam
Do you mean, do I think it is of Armenian or Turkish origin? Or what is my opinion of the fact that this is, for many people, controversial?
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Actually it would be quite interesting to know for both questions your opinion. My intention was to know your opinion about the first question, if it
is of Armenian or Aserbaijanian(Turkish) origin, but I'd also like to know why it is so controversial.
There are some parts in your explanations I don't agree with btw.
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hartun
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@Divan Makam
As I said in my post, a lot of my "explanation" was just my theory, speculation, guessing.
I don't know whether the song is Armenian Turkish or Azeri. I don't think it's possible to tell. I think the song probably comes from Erzurum. That's
all I can say.
It's only controversial because of bad history between these groups. And the song appeared in the right place at the right time so it is now famous,
although there are many other "shared songs" that no one pays attention to.
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mary
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Hi Hartun-
Thanks for the link to the Cemisgezek info. Just coming off of jetlag from a couple long flights. Looking forward to perusing the site in the next few days.....
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hartun
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I should note *its not all Armenians from Dersim called themselves Kharpertsi but only those of the more lowland regions such as Cemisgezek and
Carsancak. Armenians further up in the mountains in Northern Dersim were considered true "Dersimtsi".
In the opposite direction the song "Dersim Dort Dag Icinde" was popular among Armenians in Kharpert. They had some verses about Harput added into the
song as well. The lyrics they sang are different from what's transcribed in the modern Turkish folk song collections, which isn't surprising.
Dersim Uc Dag Icinde, performed by 3 Kharpertsi Armenians in the 1920s (not 1937 as incorrectly stated). You can read in the comments section my
(Harry Kezelian) description of the artists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qjb8tDgo-j4
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jdowning
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Hi Adam - do you have an update for us on what - if anything - is on the other side of the postcard?
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