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Peyman
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Thanks for the link David, but neither my arabic nor my french is that good. I'll keep looking for it. I know there was a listing in the library of
congress.
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kasos
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Hi Paul, Peyman, David, et al....
Paul, thanks for the nice comments. I think you're probably right about the Chinese being the first to introduce snake skin - though I'm not
personally in a position to prove it to an academically rigorous standard, it's a proposition that would be consistent with everything I've had the
opportunity to read so far.
As to why it would be used, many sources cite that the benefit of snake skin is that it is very thin, and, because it lacks hair, it is perceived to
be somewhat less sensitive to variations in humidity than other resonating skin materials. The key word is "somewhat', because there is no shortage
of anecdotes about even snakeskin instruments losing much of their resonance due to high humidity or other climatic factors. It's not something
I've personally experienced as a significant problem yet, but I haven't yet been in a position where I'm doing a public performance on the erhu or
been in some other situation where there's real pressure to maintain a certain level of sound....
I understand that in the Middle East, Egypt and Turkey especially, fish peel is sometimes used for the same purpose. I've heard that Peyman's had
some experience with fish peel... You may want to ask him about the relative merits of fish peel vs. goat skin or unborn lamb as skin resonating
materials.
Finally, as to the erhu's "barbarian" origins, it seems fairly much common ground among the sources I've seen that the earliest known written records
describing bowed instruments come from China around the fifth century AD, and that these instruments were associated with the groups to the west, ie.
the nomadic or semi-nomadic Mongolian and Turkic peoples of central asia.
Peyman, David - Thanks for the reference to a Farabi translation in French. I'm fluent in that language (that's my mom's ethnic background, and I'm
told I spoke english with a French accent up to the time I was about 8 years old - I also took my grade school education in French - God bless
bilingual Canada...). Farabi's tomes are something I'm quite interested in obtaining for my own use (Peyman's already recommended them to me in
connection with a new musical theater project), but I'm rather overun with reading material at the moment (not least because of having started a new
position, though with the same employer and at the same location), and would probably not order them myself until sometime next year. I'd be happy
to try to help translate short passages though, if that's any assistance to someone who's already got a copy, and is interested in checking something
out right away....
Finally, Peyman, thanks so much for the setar tracks.... I'm listening to one of them as I write this, and it's like a little bit of heaven....
Take care, Mark
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Peyman
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You're welcome Mark. I'll send you more later.
I hope you do get a chance to look at Farabi's book and post your findings. It should be enlightening to us all.
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Paul007
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Hi Mark, Peyman, Richard, ...
Thank you so much to share your knowledge with me and those who are interested in the subject. Recently I read something about the "silk road" and was
amazed that there used to be so much cultural exchanges along the silk road. I just mention a few example:
The Buddhist went to China through the silk road, but Chinese people found the idea too abstract, and then combined with Taoism (which is more
practical), and it has become Zen Buddhist.
The same with musical instruments:
The oud (or Barbat) went to China, and some modification took place: By combining with the original lute (straight neck, the origin is not clear) with
frets, which existed before the "oud" version came, it has become the pipa in the Tang Dynasty, preserved till the present day.
I wish to know how the erhu looked like before it was introduced to China. Apparently changes from the shape till the making etc took place, because
the present day erhu is quite different its western counterparts.
On the other hand, some of the invention China had also went to the West, the most influential are the campus and gun powder.
The gun powder was invented in China, used to make fire works to chase away ghosts and evil spirits, and eventually it became custom to use the fire
work for celebrations too (for particular fest, such as the New Year, wedding party, etc). Curiously they never came to the idea of producing weapons.
They just practice kungfu and Taiji to make a skillful worriers. But when the westerner came with gun, the kungfu is useless, and till now, it becomes
subjects for entertainment movies. However, the gun powder literally changed the whole world. I wish it were never invented.
The campus was introduced to the west, served for some good purposes for navigation, but also played a key role in the imperialism expeditions, which
brought disasters to a lot of places in the world, including China.
Both the gun powder and campus didn't bring luck to China and to most parts of the world. But music and musical instruments are shared by all peoples,
invented and re-invented, loved and played, by people from any cultural background, no matter where they are from, and where they are going to! Isn't
that fantastic! I saw some musicians at festivals who don't have a common language for communicating, but they play music together, very good music!
I really wish that music become a world religion! That would bring real peace to the world.
Mark, you are right! God bless bilingual Canada. I often envy people from Montreal who can speak two languages skillfully. If I get some more time,
the next language I am going to learn is French.
By the way, can those who had chance to experience the Arabic world music festival say something about what you see and hear? I am quite jealous.
Thank you in advance for sharing....
Paul
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Paul007
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Hi Peyman,
Can you explain something about the various kinds of skins used for instruments - what are their merits and what are their shortcomings?
I saw a riqq or daff with fish peel, very beautiful sound indeed.
Thanks.
Paul
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Peyman
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This is an interesting thread so far.
Even though I am no expert on skined instruments, I do have instruments that have different types of skin. Overall, a skin resonator makes an
instrument sound more like the human voice.
I had a turkish kabak kemane (gourd) that had fish skin on top. After having it for a while, I noticed that it smelled a little weird. All the parts
come off easily on these instruments. After a little investingating, I found out the culprit was the fish skin. The underside of it had not been
cleaned. So I took it out. It had an ok sound. I guess it's close to how the snake skin is on the erhu. It's a bit rougher than goat skin but thinner
and not so flexible. I replaced it with a piece of goat skin. Goatskin looks like paper parchment. You have to wet it before you apply it. This is a
thicker but still good enough. It doesn't have the trebel quality.
I also have a tar that has unborn lamb skin on it. These are simply the best. They are thin, hard and excellent resonators. I think the mylar plastic
on turkish cumbus are very good too, but I am not sure if you can glue these like the other types of skin.
I wish I had recorded the sound of fish skin and goat skins for comparison reasons for comparison. Maybe some other time.
In the previous link I posted, you can see pictures of oud covered with skin.
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Paul007
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Thank you, Peyman, for all the information. What you describe all sounds very interesting. It is amazing how inventive people can be, trying various
of skin to get the sounds they want! Just one silly question: how can one get the un-born lamb skin? I guess one need to kill the lamb first to get
the skin of the baby-lamb? I believe what you said about the sound, must be very sensitive and beautiful.
I saw a book called "Musical Instruments - A World-wide Survey of Traditional Music-Making" written by the French ethnomusicologist Lucie Rault. Even
the resonance body is incredible. People may use various woods, coco nuts, bones and turtle body for resonant body. I am attracted by all kinds of
traditional instruments because of their unique sounds and color. I really love folk music festivals. Once I saw a Vietnamese girl play a kind of
bowed instrument similar to the erhu except that the resonant body is the performer's mouth! She use one string to connect to a piece of wood (or
something else, I am not sure) which is put into her mouth. And then she began to play - very unique and beautiful sound. She can make change the
sound by some actions with her mouth. That was wonderful even when just looking at her!
Now I have a question for every body here: I noticed that in the Arabic world, it is extremely rare to see female instrumentalist,
but you see great singers such as Oum Kamsum! I ask people why is that so, but never got a satisfied answer. I never saw any lady oud player until I
came across the website of Liu Fang and the Montreal Arabic festival, Yousra Dhahbi. She is known as the "queen" of the oud (http://www.philmultic.com/home/press_release/The_Orientals_en.html). According to her record label, she seems to be the first professional oud
player in the history (http://shop.store.yahoo.com/discerning/yodhrhforlu9.html).
Now my question: is there any particular reason in the Arabic world that it is easier to produce a lady singer than a lady instrumentalist?
Paul
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Peyman
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Yes that's how unborn lamb skin is made. I know PETA was unhappy as unborn lamb's are also harvested to make coats too.
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Paul007
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Peyman
Yes that's how unborn lamb skin is made. I know PETA was unhappy as unborn lamb's are also harvested to make coats too. |
Thank you! But I think for producing a good instrument that can make beautiful music, it is worht to sacrifice a lamb.
Any comments on the other question? 
Paul
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kasos
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Hi, Paul, Peyman...
Finally the stars have aligned, and I'm due to pick up the pipa this Thursday. It's been a long time coming, but I'm really looking forward to it.
Peyman, I've really been enjoying the saz which recently arrived. I haven't really made a serious attempt yet at experimentign with setar techniques
on it, as you suggested, though that's on my agenda... In a lighter vein, I thought I'd add that, as a good Canadian boy who grew up playing the
national sport, I'm finding long necked instruments like the saz very physically enjoyable to play, almost as if I'd been doing it all my life - it
makes me laugh, but it seems to trigger some of the same muscle memories that I used to get from holding a hockey stick... don't worry, I've managed
to resist the temptation to take a slap shot....
Paul, given your interests, I thought I'd mention that I'm exploring a new theatre project, which would very much tie in with the silk road and the
types of instruments we've been discussing. I'm hoping to do something in the way of an abridgement or adaptation of the Venetian Marco Polo's
travels from Europe to China in the 13th century, accompanied by live music played on the traditional instruments of the regions traversed along the
way. I'm quite inspired by Yo Yo Ma's Silk Road endeavors, and by the instruments themselves, in which I'm finding myself increasingly fascinated.
As part of the overall effort, I'm making a fairly serious attempt to pick up a couple of representative instruments from each of the major regions
traversed by Polo - though, admitedly, at this point, I'm not being very picky as to quality - Ebay specials will do just fine, for starters.
Hopefully, after becoming more familiar with the basics, I'll have a better idea of what to look for, when getting higher end examples.
Before signing off, I do want to talk briefly about an instrument which I recently picked up, which I can't really justify as being part of the Silk
Road theatre project, but which is nevertheless pretty interesting in its own right. I'm talking about the Bulgarian gadulka, a bowed instrument
which is constructed very much like the Cretan Lyra or Turkish classical kemence, with three played strings, and which is played using a fingernail
stopping technique. However, what distinguishes the Gadulka is that it features 10 sympathetic strings nestled under the three main, played strings.
Basically, this robs the player of any access at all to a fingerboard (the kemence and lyra retain that, at least) but in exchange, you get this
very cool, harp-like reverberation/echo. This feature makes the sound somewhat louder, but more importantly gives it a sheen that makes it quite
attractive even to people who aren't ordinarily drawn to non-western bowed instruments. Much Celtic music sounds great on it, for example - makes
me wonder whether, since we now have "the Irish Bouzouki" as a fairly well established example of eastern instruments finding a place in Western folk
music, whether it's time to develop "the Irish Gadulka"... Ya gotta love world music....
Take care all, Mark
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Hank Levin
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Pipa, oud, barbat, etc.
Couple of points that may be of interest:
First, check out this Tang Dynasty ceramic piece of a bactrian camel with musicians. One is playing what seems to be an oud/barbat type instrument.
Other point is that I understand the word barbat to mean "duck." It's application to the instrument from Persia came from the appearance of the
instrument when placed on its face on a table top.
Barbat was carved from one piece, slightly arched back and shallow sides; but it could be quite large, from the looks of variations in old Persian
miniatures.
--Hank
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Peyman
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Hey Mark,
I happen to catch a movie last night on TCM (classic movies) that was very interesting. It's called: "Grass: A Nation's Battle For Life." Made in
1925, it's a documentry (first of its kind) by Merian C. Cooper and Ernest B. Schoedsack, who travelled from Istanbul through Iraq into Western Iran
to follow one of the Bakhtiari tribes as they migrate during winter.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0015873/
What was interesting besides the documentation of customs and sociolgical aspects of the movie, was the choice of music. The score had famous turkish
songs some arabic oud music and later on santoor and tar. The music was added in the 1991 addition. At some points people are shown playing
instruments, there is a bedouin rabab player and then there is a turkish saz player.
Another interesting aspect of the movie is that Merican C. Cooper and Schoedsack go on to make "King Kong" later on 
The movie is listed in Amazon.
BTW, I got a copy of Farabi's great music in persian. It's not a direct translation but a commentary. I found a direct translation of it too but I
think I'll read this one first as I don't want to spend time deciphering. I also have found other writings from Safiyaddin, a music writer of the 15th
century. I think one of his works was on a rosette that Jameel posted with all the makams listed. I plan to read that next. I'll post any interesting
findings.
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hurdygurdyguy
Oud Lover
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What a great forum!! I found it as a result of searching for info on how to attach/glue a skin (snake or otherwise) to an erhu body and found this
forum thread!
Although probably not on topic for oud's this thread is the closest I've found for my current project. I'm making my own erhu, the biggest
challenges being constructing the hexagonal body, drilling and reaming the peg holes and now attaching a skin for the resonator. I found an ethnic
drum made in Kenya (made for export) in a thrift store and thought the animal (goat, maybe?) skin would work, but when I cut it I determined it is
probably too thick (it's about 1.5 mm).
My question being is there anyone here who can give me good direction on attaching a skin to an erhu body. If not an erhu in particular, but in
general? I know the skin has to be soaked then glued and fastened until the glue and skin dries, but I've been puzzled about gluing a wet/damp skin.
Doesn't that dilute the glue? Or does it matter? And then there's securing it to a heaxagonal body while the glue/skin dries. On a round drum frame
that's relatively easy, but how would one secure each side of an erhu evenly? I'm guessing I need to make relief cuts at the corners to eliminate the
overlap of the skin at the angled corners.
Thanks in advance for any help or direction!! I look forward to perusing the other threads as I am in, addition to being mainly a hurdygurdy player,
a big enthusiast of the oud!!
hg guy
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Peyman
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I don't know about erhu and snake skins, but generally you don't soak the skin too long (10-20 minutes) and then you have to wrap it in a towel to get
rid of all the extra water so it's not dripping when you are gluing. You can usually stretch the skin by hand or with pliers to make it thinner as you
stick it on, but beware it will spring back a little. You can try scraping it thinner but I have never done this. I use general wood glue, you can use
cold hide glue or even white crafts glue too.
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kasos
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Welcome, hg guy!
I'm glad Peyman was able to respond, I understand he has worked with goatskin resonators before. I've always found him to be very knowledgeable,
and value his advice greatly. Quite selfishly, I'm very glad to get further specifics on gluing myself, as I've got to be doing some hide gluing too
in the next little while. I'm almost done building a gourd kamancheh - the hide resonator's got to be placed on though, soon, and it's nice to get
a review of how it's done. Longer term, I've also got a restoration project to do on another bowed instrument, a rather beat-up East Indian Sarangi
which I've acquired - there's a tear in the hide (I think it's goat), and it will have to be replaced.
HG, have you played erhu, or another fingerboardless (or keyless - let's remember to include the hurdy gurdy in the mix...) fiddle before? I'd be
happy to compare notes on playing technique, on this or other fiddles - I'm by no means an expert, and don't have years of experience (on the erhu, at
least) behind me, but I'm very enthusiastic about the whole range of non-Western bowed instruments, and the traditional music that's played on them.
And finally, how wonderful to have a hurdy-g player (with oud interests, no less) on the site! Though it's not all that common an avocation in North
America, I have some relatives in south-central France who are into the revival of the folk-music of the region, and I know they are VERY big on the
vielle... Did you build yours yourself? (I know I've bumped into sites that seem to offer a lot of advice in this direction...)
All the best with your erhu building project - I'd love to see pictures, if you're in a postion to post some.... - Mark
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Peyman
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Forgot to say, use masking tape to hold down the skin untill glue dries and make sure you cut about 1.5-2 inches extra on the skin, then scrape the
extra off.
Mark, whenever you finish your instrument, post some pictures or email them to me!
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hurdygurdyguy
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Kasos and Peyman,
Thanks so much for the advice on the skin attachment!! I'm fairly well confident now I can figure out how to glue and hold the skin until the glue
sets, it's just a matter of finding the right skin now. Definitely as thinner than the one I have now...I'm thinking around .5 mm or so...
Kasos, no I've never played a bowed instrument before, let alone an erhu...but I've seen one played and was absolutley fascinated with it and
figured "How hard could it be to build on??!!" Well, I'm finding out. Even though I've built many Appalachian dulcimers (and built my first two
vielles from kits) they are more complicated than one would think
I've been playing the vielle for about 20 some years and have had the great fortune of taking some lessons and workshops from some the world's best
players: Pierre Imbert (sadly deceased), Gilles Chabenat and Patrick Bouffard (both from France)...in fact I highly recommend Bouffards latest group
Transept and their latest cd "Second Prelude" as it features oud and middle eastern percussion prominently. Bouffard has been doing some great things
lately blending eastern and western styles!!
My current vielle I fortunetly did not build myself, but bought from a luthier who knew what he was doing!! I've modified it somewhat through the
years in order to get "that sound" whatever that is!!
I do have an oud that I noodle around with occaisionally. It was made in Cairo probably mostly for the tourist trade as it is somewhat rough in
construction, but it was the right price (under $200) and I bought it from an Egyptian shopkeeper friend in Seattle...It's not in a standard oud
tuning, but rather in an open chord tuning which I know is a lazy way to play but works so far for me
I also have a baglama saz i bought in Ephesus, Turkey a year or so ago and really enjoy playing it!! Most of the instruments I enjoy have a
distinct drone accompaniment
I'm looking forward to some great exchanges of ideas and perpectives at this forum!!
Randy (aka hg guy)
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coyootie
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lutes and pipas
greetings everyone. a huge number of intriguing points have been raised and I think many of them may not ever be answered fully, but those mysteries
are always good for midnight contemplation!
One theory about the origins of stave back lute type instruments is that it is a response to conserving/shortage of wood. In areas with tropical wood
resources (China and India come to mind immediately)a large resonator can be hollowed out of large timber ( veena, pipa,sarod etc.)In areas like the
Middle East where wood has always been a more precious/scarce commodity, making a back out of a single plank split into segments gets much more
mileage out of your material.
Also be very careful about using old iconography for historical basis about musical instruments! For some reason it seems that over the centuries,
most artists ( with few exceptions for painters/draughtsnmen who were likely musicians)portrayed instruments with a remarkable lack of
accuracy/detail. Look at some medieval depictions of fiddlers bowing on the wrong side of the bridge,Victorian engravings of Hindoo (sic) musicians,
etc. and you will get my meaning immediately.
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kasos
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Hi all!
Thanks for your very sensible post, coyootie. Availability of wood must have had a lot to do with the choice of preferred building techniques in the
different regions.
Randy, I'm very intrigued by the different vielle players you mentioned, particularly the Transept ensemble. Do you have any links to suggest, or
any way of posting recordings? And do you have any recordings yourself?
Keep us all informed on the progress of your erhu.
Peyman, what can you tell me about the Persian Tar - was it around early enough that I could consider using it in the Polo piece?
Mark
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hurdygurdyguy
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Kasos,
Nearly all of my vielle cd's (and older tapes) are copies from friends who obtained the originals in France as there is limited interest
(unfortunetly) here in the US. An excellent starting point is http://www.amta.fr Currently in French but I see an English version is currently in the works. Bouffards Transept album is available there plus
others.
I can post some snippets of the album (with the oud parts of course), but I'm reluctant to make available the whole album as these folks are my
friends and they do try and make a living off of their recordings. But I would be glad to post examples if someone would walk me through that
process!
I found some bongos in a thrift shop and the skins were in good shape and the right thickness (almost parchment thin) so I'll be using one for the
erhu (and the other as backup in case I mess up the first time  )
Peyman, I'm assuming since the skin is quite thin I should not soak it for more than 10 minutes (per your advice above), right?
Randy
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Peyman
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Mark,
The tar as we know it today was probably not around during that time, many poets and writers who mention 'tar' most likely meant it in the context of
a 'string' or strings and not what we have now. The instrument we call tar now was originally known as panj-tar (5 strings) and it's origin is in the
16th century. Instruments like it were abundant though, tanboors, dotars, chogur etc. mostly used in folk music. I am not sure if you want to lean
towards folk music or court music.
Randy,
Soak the skin as long as it's pliable, as long as you can fold the corners to glue to the erhu and stretch it a little. It shouldn't take that long,
probably below 30 mintues. Afterwards, when the skin dries, before you put the bridge on, wet that area of the skin again so you don't break it with
the bridge. And I should correct myself. Don't use hot glue and don't use any glue that wouldn't come off easily. That sort of thing will ruin the
skin and might ruin the wood when you want to take it off again. All it has to is bind the skin to the erhu and you really don't need to use
superglues or gorilla etc. for that. In Iran, they use sereesh. It's a glue that's made from plants and dissolves in water easily and so that skin
comes off when you put water on it. I haven't found this in the US but there is also cold hide glue and crafts glue (read the back though and think
about the longevity of your erhu).
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kasos
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Question for Peyman: What are the instruments most associated with Persian court music in the period 1200-1300 C.E.? I've seen some material to
suggest the santoor was used during this period. Would the santoor have been considered a court, or a folk instrument?
Mark
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Peyman
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I still haven't gotten my history book, but from my previous readings, the most common instruments in courts music would be ney (reed flutes made from
bamboo), arghanoon (old name for the kanun), barbat (oud?), kamancheh (3 string). Chang, literally 'claw', means Harp, what these harps sounded like,
no one knows but almost any musical painting depicts a harp. These harps looked a lot like the harps we see today. The tanboors, tars and chogoors
were also used but more in folk music.
I don't know much about the santoor, but it's definitely a court instrument. I have read that it might be a very old instrument but some think it's a
newer invention, probably dating 400-500 years. I can ask my friend about this and will let you know.
What I think you might be overlooking for your project is drum instruments. They were used widely in Iran in all types of music and are very
important. Daf, ghaval, dayereh are some of them and are fram drums, with the daf being very important to the sufi sects. You should think about
building one or buying one.
http://www.dejkam.com/music/iran_traditional/instruments/
http://www.usacc.org/kamancha/history.html
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Peyman
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The picture here should help:
http://www.sazmuseum.ir/english/index.asp
You can identify some of these instruments.
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kasos
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Hi Peyman - I can't thank you enough for your continuing help. Great picture you referred to, I just wish the reproduction was bigger! It's a
little hard to make out the details - maybe I'll see if I can print it out and enlarge it. I guess I shouldn't complain, they don't call them
miniatures for nothing!
I found some interesting stuff covering what seems to be much the same range of instruments at the following:
http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/ai113_folder/113_arti... and at http://www.azer.com/aiweb/categories/magazine/54_folder/54_articles... I don't want to assume too much, but, I'm taking as a basic proposition that the azeris were part of the broader persian cultural sphere - I
think this fellow's instrument recreations are based on some of the same types of pictures you referred me to.
As a technical point, I'm trying to figure out whether the zither type instrument found in the photos on the sites I just quoted is a santour, or the
kanun precursor you were referring to. The arrangement of the bars seems very santoor-like to me, and that was my working assumption until your last
few posts.... what do you think?
Take care, Mark
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