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Jonathan
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The one thing I know is that, if I ever build another ud, I am not using these two woods. The maple is difficult, and the lacewood is close to
impossible. I know that I have never bent wood before, but I just could not believe how tough this was.
The maple just takes time, but bends ok. The lacewood, though, horrible. If you bend to quickly, you can hear the fibers tearing. And, the light
mottled sections of the wood separate from the darker portions with rapid bending. I am not kidding when I tell you that it took about 45 minutes to
bend each lacewood rib to the approximate shape. Maybe longer.
That LMI rib bender works fine, though.
Again, I have no experience bending wood, and I am sure that my inexpertise contibutes to the difficulty I am having bending this stuff. But, this is
hard wood. The one good thing, I guess, is that, if I do it right, I think that the bowl will be super strong.
I just bent the ribs to the rough shape needed. Not exact. I figured I would rough the shape in, then cut, then fine tune the curves. Once that
really sharp curve was done toward the base, the rest of the oud is really a pretty gently sloping curve--not tough.
You will see some scorch marks on the back of a couple of ribs of the maple, but otherwise, so far so good. I didn't crack any but, when I heard
fibers tearing in the lacewood, I tossed those to the side and started with a new blank.
I am shooting for 21 ribs--11 lacewood, 10 maple. I am still a few short.
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Jonathan
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I made a template out of some laminated paper for the shape of the 19 center ribs. They should all be the same size, of course, with a different
shape for the remaining two. I figured I would use this to pencil in the rough curve on the back of the wood, then trim to proper shape. Everybody
is suggesting a planer, but I wonder if I could just use a jig saw, cutting outside of the line, and then sanding.
I am not going to cut them all now, of course. Just the center rib.
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oudmaker
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Jonathan;
What is the thickness you use when you cut your ribs? You guys complaining about bending them. My ribs cut to 2mm and I bend any wood with no problem
with heat only; I mean any wood.
For the thickness you use for purfling is OK. All you have to do is to guess the rib width at the center little less. I saw your marks on the mould.
They are OK too.
Hide glue lets you work with hot iron. I do not use any clamping at all Just look to the pictures at my website.
Good luck and you can ask me any thing you have difficulty.
Regards
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Thank you, Dincer. My ribs, after sanding, were 0.13 inches, or 3.3 mm. I suppose that contributed to the difficulty I had. Next time, I am going
to go thinnner, as you suggested.
At this point, since the wood is cut and bent, I am going to work with what I have, and sand down at the end.
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Jonathan
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Dincer, I just want to make sure that I understand how to mount the purfling strips. Do you glue in place both ribs first, just leaving a space for
the purfling to slide in? Or, do you just glue one rib in place, and then use the adjacent rib as a guide to help bend the purfling?
Thank you very much.
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Jonathan
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Just fine tuning the curves on the ribs. I want it as close as possible so that I have to put as little tension as possible on the ribs when they are
glued in place. Nothing is glued in yet, but I couldn't resist trying to get some idea of what it is going to look like (forget the gridlines for
now, I didn't line them up for this shot). I am growing to like that maple more and more, and hope that the flames show up nicely after it is
finished.
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Mike
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Gone for a couple of weeks, and come back to see this??? WOOO HOOO Jonathan! Way to go bud!
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Jonathan
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MIKE!! Welcome back, bro. We missed you.
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Jonathan
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The template for the ribs. Works for all of the 19 central ribs. Then, I am using a jig saw for a rough cut, then a planer, then sand paper mounted
on a board, then sand paper mounted on glass.
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Mike
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it's good to be back Jonathan...that color combination for the back is incredible. can't wait to see it done.
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Jonathan
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Thanks. I wasn't sure about it to start, but I am sort of loving it. And I think the ebony purfling will add a lot.
There's a little bit of "spring back" with the wood so, after bending it, I tape or clamp them to these forms I made.
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oudmaker
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Jonathan
Here is how I glue two ribs with a purfling in between.
Very first rib on the mould as you know is the center rib. After center rib is glued to the blocks I secure one side of the rib with tumbpicks on the
mould and doing so the rib wont move at one direction laterelly.
I cut the second rib to shape and test on a glass plate as well as against the first rib. I make sure no space between two of them then I get the
purfling and roughly cut the length by overlayin on the rib #1. Then it is utmost important to have your final oud exactly or very close to yor mould
you have to SAND BOTH ENDS OF THE PURFLING!! Hadi use to count the number of the sanding moves in order make them equally thinner. Look to your Manol
or Onnik or any decent Turkish oud you will see it had been done. Sending lengt at both ends are about 15 or 20 cm.
Now comes to glue them together. What I do is the way all oldtimers I saw (quite number of them). Fisrt I put piecces of little news paper clippings
under the #1 rib where they crosses the lateral ribs of your mould. Then apply glue with brush to the edge of the #1 rib where I am going to glue the
2nd one. Then I apply glue to the ends and the ribs side that to be connected. I put them together at the end block with the strait purfling in
between which I already apply glue both side of it as well and secure them with a tumbpick. Dont wory about your glue will get dry. Then pushing
gently #2 aginst the pufling and to #1 I put again a piecce of newspaper cut to 2X10 cms. over the joint and heat it with my iron. I keep doing this
until I reach to the front block.I put a little glue to the block as well and secure the end of #2 against the #1 and purfling and the block with
again two or three tumbpicks on the block.
That is it!!
There is no clapmping or taping Hot glue, heat and good matching sides do the trick.
Good luck for you second oud.
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Dincer, you have made this very clear for me. Thank you very much!
My second oud? I haven't given up on this one, yet.
I think, though, that at least for the woods that I have chosen, the 1/8 inch is too thick, and I am going to aim for something closer to 2 mm, as you
do. The amount of heat necessary to bend the ribs is too high with the current thickness, causes damage to the wood, and makes getting the correct
curve too difficult. Perhaps I would not have had this problem had I used a softer wood, but that does not matter--I have the problem now.
So, I am going to take a couple of steps back, and, rather than push forward in a manner that I am struggling with, I am going back to the original
wood, and try to make the blanks thinnner--closer to the 2 mm that you mentioned. I may have to buy more wood, but that is OK. When your are going
the wrong way down a road, speeding up doesn't help.
But, I am not giving up on these two woods--I like them too much. I just need to make the blanks a little thinner, I think.
Thanks.
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oudmaker
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Jonathan
Forgive my mistake in English but I never suggested that you should give up your first.
Now more points on bending the ribs. Since lot of you guys have difficulty on bending ribs.
First, assumption that it is easy to bend soft wood is easier then hard wood is not quite right. I found rosewood and ebony are much easier to bend
then say flamed maple.
Second, most of the bending iron I saw in this forum is too small in diameter. Take a look what I am using in my work. My bending iron has 3 different
diameters. Larger the diameter you heat more surface a time and when you feel that wood is getting less resistence to your pressure you go to smaller
diameter and try to bend it to your whish and check it with your final curvature. I bend all the ribs -28 or 29- of them within 3 hours. I also use a
little hotplate on the side to heat the cold rib a little bit then I put it on my bending iron. Don't be afraid of over heating and burning. You may
have some burn at the beginnig but when you get to use of the wood you are using that will not occure again.
Third: As I said, bend all of them and tie them together. You don't need any piecce of wood to tie them on. When the time comes to cut to shape you
use your little curved iron ( if you don't have any get one it is important) to fine tune the curvature to fit exactly to your mould. Please don't
torture your self by using an outline on a paper of final shape of any form and please don't use sanding block but a longer hand planer attached to
your vise. Practice it. You will be much quicker better to shape your ribs. And one-a- time please.
If you need more on cutting the ribs to shape I will explain it later
Regards
Dincer
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oudmaker
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Jonathan
I forgat to mention it that If you are planning to make an oud with less then 23 ribs don't get down to 2mm. make them 2.5 mm.
Since we are talking about number of ribs vs to smooth curvature on the back Murat Usta once told me that when you put your hand over an oud you
should be able to count the ribs withot looking them. Whwn you make ouds less then 23 ribs you should you allowed to have that corners.If you have it
look to the Manol with 19 ribs. You will see what he ment
Dincer
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oudmaker
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Sorry folks I should have chek my spelling. We have a say in Turkish: The chimney is cruked but the smoke is coming strait.
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Elie Riachi
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Mr. Dincer,
I do not understand why thicker for less than 23 ribs?
Thank you and best regards,
Elie
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oudmaker
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Elie
Because your ribs has to be wider. Your final back becomes more cornery and you have to cut inside as well as outside corners at the joints more from
your ribs inorder to achive more smooth curvature laterally. When I suggest thicker I mean 2.5 mm max.
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys. I am in the middle of cutting more wood-- most what was already cut was bent, and it was impossible to sand down easily. Same two
woods, though.
Also, I have decided to change the purfling from 1/40th of an inch ebony to 1.5mm of wenge. I need the extra width of purfling--easier to work with,
and it allows me to taper the edges as Dincer suggested. I think it will all look good together. I don't think I have seen wenge as purfling before,
but I think it will look OK, and give a good contrast to the maple and lacewood. But, if anybody thinks otherwise, feel free to let me know.
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oudmaker
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Jonathan
Your ribs are quite contrast why not to use black+white double pufling?
Dincer
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Jonathan
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I could. I just thought that there was a lot of pattern in the maple and in the lacewood, so maybe I shouldn't have the purfling be too loud. But, I
will think about it. I still have to cut the lacewood, so I have time.
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Elie Riachi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by oudmaker
Elie
Because your ribs has to be wider. Your final back becomes more cornery and you have to cut inside as well as outside corners at the joints more from
your ribs inorder to achive more smooth curvature laterally. When I suggest thicker I mean 2.5 mm max.
Dincer |
Thanks Mr. Dincer. This makes sense now.
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
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Rib Bending
Dear Jonathan et al,
I hope I got this post up in time to be of help. In the '60s I build around 3000 appalachian dulcimers ("Musical Traditions") and bent one hell of a
lot of ribs, as well as quite a bit of oud and guitar work. I tried everything from steam chests to anhydrous ammonia (don't even go there) and came
up with a really fast way to bend ribs---without even losing the ones with squirrley grain, that are often the most beautiful.
I used a jig made of 4" bronze tube with a simple nichrome heat element inside (a replacement for a bathroom heater element). The bronze was nice
because it distributed heat and did not stain like iron pipe. I marked the ribs with soft chalk, 3 marks: The center or "apex" of the bend's sharpest
point, and one mark for each end of the bend I had to work. (The placement of these marks was very subjective.)
I had a 2" soft brush in a cup or can of cold water, and would quickly brush a single sweep of water on each surface of the bend, the top and the
bottom.
I would then genly roll the TOP surface of the wood (opposite the bend) on the hot tube, not to bend it but to vaporize the water and drive it into
the outer surface of the wood. Then I'd immediately flip the rib over and proceed to bend it to form. I hold the end of the rib with one hand, and
wooden block in the other. The block allowed me to press, if needed, directly over the "iron" without burning myself, and also to support the wood
fibers if the grain was squirrely so they wouldn't lift and splinter.
The amount of water was minimal, and I considered that it was more important to use it on the outside of the bend (with heat) than on the inside, to
prevent splintering.
I trained a number of people to do this for me. I would start them off with LOTS of scraps of damaged or unusable wood. Some of these guys became much
faster than I was. We eventually would get very little waste or breakage.
By the way, bending a thin rib tends to create a longitudinal concave on the outside of the rib. On ouds this is considered something that must be
overcome, as the preference is for a round smooth back. To accomplish that, the rib must be cut rather thick (2.5-3.0 mm) to give enough thickness to
the glue joints so that they are not sanded away when they are rounded later on. This is especially true if there are fewer ribs. In European lutes,
this natural "fluting" was considered attractive; the ribs were scraped clean in such a way that the concave curve was preserved, and the joints were
only minimally dressed to remove all the glue. The end result was a "fluted" back. When I built my Karibyan copy, I started with ribs that were
already only 1/16" thick, and you better believe there was no room in the rib joints to round the ribs without making them ridiculously weak, so I did
them lute-style. I actually like it, and may well make future ouds like that.
By the way (I may have missed this if someone else mentioned it in this string), the way I bent the purfling for between the ribs---I used three
pieces, as did the Karibyan that I was copying---was to stack 15 or so together and bind them tightly with thread, and then bend the stack like a rib.
That's the easiest way I can think of to bend them edge-ways with any uniformity. If you do this, save it until you're reasonably comfortable bending
ribs.
Best,
Hank Levin
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Hank, for the tips.
About the purfling--you bound the whole length of purfling strips with string? Or just the ends? It seems like they would tend to separate as they
bent, particularly if it was thin purfling. The string didn't get in the way?
I still have not decided on what purfling to use. I have 1/40 inch ebony that I bought from lmii, but I think it may be too thin. I do have wenge,
but I would have to cut the purfling myself, which is just too much for me. Ideally, I would really like to find ebony that is about 1 or 1.5
mm--nice and bold. I have not yet been able to find this, however. I think the 1/40 may just be too thin.
I recut the wood to 3/32 inch--hopefully, that won't prove to thin. The maple bent easily. I have just been warming up the entire length of the rib
blank over the heater by running it back and forth, then concentrating on that area that need the maximum bend. When the rib wants to, it melts to
the form. No point in forcing it, because it just snaps. And, as Dincer suggested, I use the flattest portion of the heating element at first, then
gradually use the sharper angles for the tighter bends.
The lacewood--I have to cut more. I tried to bend four blanks last night. 2 turned out ok, and 2 I had to discard because I could feel the fibers
breaking. A stupid choice for wood for my first oud, but I am not giving up on it, because I think it will look incredible. I only need 11 lacewood
ribs--just nine more to go.
Thanks again.
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Hank Levin
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Sevgili Dincer bey,
I wrote and posted my "tips" on rib bending before I read the entire string, and so did not see your excellent suggestions on rib bending. I did not
mean to be so discourteous as to repeat the points that you have made. Çok affedersiniz! --Hank
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