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mavrothis
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Hi Mikokiko,
I don't think we disagree that much, probably if you look at what I posted about Pythagoras again you'll see that.
Greek influence in Egypt started long before Christianity, so I think it is doubtful that only Christian words are used in Coptic (but I am not
familiar with Coptic...so I can't give examples). Of course I'm sure the Greek spoken in Egypt during and after the Hellenistic era was also greatly
influenced by the Egyptian language.
May I ask what are you basing your belief on the Dorians' ancestry being Egyptian? I don't see any proof of that. Why would Egyptians spread
Phoenician instead of Egyptian? Honestly, I don't think there is any evidence, whether it be linguistic or based on archaeological evidence that
shows this.
Can you please be more clear on this point?
Sydney,
No, we don't use cymbals, but oddly we often have organs here in the US. Definitely not traditional, an unfortunate Western addition. I believe only
in N. America will you find this, everywhere else it is strictly vocal music.
Thanks,
mav
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Brian Prunka
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This is indeed an interesting thread. Mikokiko, you raise a lot of interesting ideas--I'd like more references to your sources whenever possible.
Qanun/Kanun is related to the Greek kanon, which means "rule", "standard" or "model" (at least according to my dictionary). The english word
canon comes from the Greek via the Romans.
I guess it's the rule because everyone tunes to the qanun.
I'd be interested in anyone's explanation of how the comma-defined or quarter-tone intervals can be justified as "natural" intervals.
The natural intervals, which occur in all music (though as previously noted, less often in western music), I thought were generally understood to be
described by integer ratios.
For example:
an octave is 2:1; the higher note vibrates twice for every vibration of the lower note.
a perfect fifth is 3:2; the higher note vibrates 3 times for every 2 vibrations of the lower note.
a major third is 5:4; the higher note vibrates 5 times for every 4 vibrations of the lower note.
as far as I know, the intervals used in Arabic and Turkish music (and apparently Coptic music) cannot be described this way. The comma interval
itself is (or can be) derived this way, which is the only way I can see that one might call the system "natural"--seems kind of a stretch to me,
though. I should note, though, that I don't see this as devaluing the eastern musical systems. If anything, it makes it more intriguing: how is it
that something that is relatively counter-intuitive yield so much subtle beauty?
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mikokiko
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Actually Ka-Nun was an Egyptian term used for their Zither Instrument. Many people argue, that the modern-day Qanun was a descendant of such an
instrument, although there was found to be a very similar instrument in Mesopotamia around the same time. The word Ka here means
personification/embodiment, while nun means the world. So the Ka-Nun is the embodiment of the world.
I am sorry for not giving references for some of my findings Brian. On the discovery of the Egyptian comma, it was found in many of the preserved
instruments. There was found a consistency with the 6 intervals noted previously, with a few exceptions found here and there. These researches
conducted on the instruments, were done by the Egyptsound team and the Tehuti Research Foundation. Brian, I never said that Coptic Music uses the
comma intervals, just ancient Egyptian music, however I was going to mention later on that these intervals do fit the best with Coptic Music today.
This is only my personal opinion. Someone else can argue that it sounds better with just quarter, half, and whole tones.
Mavrothis, the majority of Greek words used in Coptic are used in prayer and in "Christian context," however there are also many words that are
commonly used in Coptic that are not Egyptian at all such as "kosmos," meaning the world, or "Psali," meaning song.
I also do not have a strict stance on my belief that the Dorians' ancestors were Egyptians, but found that this fact did support my research. I base
this fact on what Herodotus said in his book of histories, I do not know if he actually based this on belief or fact. He himself came from a Dorian
town and tells us, "...if one were to trace back, generation by generation, the lineage of Danae the daughter of Acrisius, the chiefs of the
Dorians would turn out to be true-born Egyptians...Enough has been said about all this. Others have explained how and through what achievements they
became kings over the Dorians, despite being Egyptians, and so I will not go into that. I will record other things that others have not picked
up."
About the language, it is a well known fact, that the origin of the Pheonican alphabet were the Egyptian Hieroglyphics. The Greeks are not alone in
having their language rooted in Pheonican one. The Arabic, Hebrew, and latin languages have thier origin also in Pheonican.
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Peyman
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This is an interesting discussion and upon al-Halabi's older threads on Farabi, I started reading a translation on Farabi's book on music. I was more
interested to know learn about the instruments (oud, tanbur and robab) he discusses but have come across his description of the commas.
Anyway, I have read that the Kanoon is a take on the word "Arghanoon" (pronounced 'er-gheh-noon') which is the ancient Persian name for the same
instrument. It is used a lot in ancient poems along side the word "chang" (Harp). But that's not the end of the story (or the beginning). Arghanoon
(sometimes pronounced Orghanoon) was originally how the persians referred the name given to the Greko-Roman "organs," made from pipes on top of a box
that worked by blowing air into them. I am not sure if this is a greek word or the persian pronounciation of "organ." The word was later used to
describe the early kanoons that were made from leather on top of a rectangular box with gut strings.
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mikokiko
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That's pretty cool,
O.K., I think its time I start discussing some of the discoveries and the theories of the Tehuti Research Foundation about the ancient Egyptian
Scales.
Researchers found that the first four notes tuned to any Egyptian instrument equaled the Natural Fourth of 498.11 cents, 22 commas. They found that
each tetrachord always equaled a natural fourth. Every tetrachord was found to contain two whole tones (Minor or/and Major), and one semitone (Limma
or Apotome).
Tetrachords, in case some of you didn't know, are the building blocks of the scales of any mode. They consist of four succesive notes.
In Turkish Music, the makam consists of a tetrachord and a pentachord (five succesive notes). The tetrachord or pentachord may be first. There are
about 6 basic Turkish Tetrachords, Çârgâh; Bûselik; Kürdî; Rast; Ussâk; and Hicaz. All of them except for Hicaz consist of 22 commas; the
natural fourth. Hicaz consists of one extra comma. If you add one major whole tone to any tetrachord, you get a pentachord with the same name (except
for Ussâk). Thus the six basic pentachords Çârgâh; Bûselik; Kürdî; Rast; Hüseynî; and Hicaz, all equal the natural fifth of 31 commas (702.11
cents), again with the exception of Hicaz which consists of 32 commas.
In Arabic Music tetrachords (or chords in general) are known as agnas. However the agnas of Arabic Music can either be Trichords (some books leave
these out), Tetrachords, or Pentachords (although, also known as 3uqud). They can either be disjunct or conjunct agnas, and in some cases there can be
more than two agnas to a Maqam. The agnas are primarily what make up the mood or feel for a Maqam. Usually the first gins of a Maqam tells you what
Fasilah (Maqam Family) it belongs to. For example there is the Sikah Fasilah, and the Higaz Fasilah, where all the maqamat have either the Sikah Gins
or Higaz Gins as their lower tetrachord.
Back to Egyptian Music...
The Egyptian diatonic (scales with seven notes, with the last note at the end to make an octave) scales were always found to contain two tetrachords,
whether conjunct with one additional note, two disjointed tetrachords with no additional notes, or overlapping tetrachords with additional notes.
These variations resulted in some scales being more tense, than other relaxed ones.
Thus there were 6 types of Tetrachords (This has also proved to be found consistent when analyzing scales of Egyptian instruments). The Tehuti
Research Foundation divides these 6 into two equal groups: Cyclic and Divisive Tetrachords. Divisive Tetrachords contain one major whole tone, one
minor whole tone, and one apotome. While, Cyclic Tetrachords contain two major whole tones and one limma. This was so that each tetrachord could give
its "balanced feel." Why? Because each tetrachord is required to add up to 22 commas (Natural Fourth), as they found occured in all cases.
As noted before, there are two types of semitones, the minor (limma), and the major (apotome). Wherever these semitones were located in the scale was
where the "energy center" is loacated. This can also be known as the point of tension in the scale.
Cyclic:
Semitone Above
9 - 9 - 4 (Equates to Cargah Tetrachord)
Semitone Below
4 - 9 - 9 (Equates to Kurdi Tetrachord)
Semitone in the Middle
9 - 4 - 9 (Equates to Buselik Tetrachord)
Divisive:
Semitone Above
9 - 8 - 5 ( Equates to Rast Tetrachord)
Semitone Below:
5 - 9 - 8 (Equates to Segah Tetrachord)
Semitone in the Middle:
9 (or 8) - 5 - 8 (or 9) (8 - 5 - 9 is Ussak Tetrachord)
The different sizes and order of the intervals in a tetrachord determine its character and ethos.
This is what gives the scale its feeling. This is of course taking out of consideration the Egyptian modes which we most probably will never know much
about. Since each mode contained certain melodic flow, went along with certain rhythms and had cadences to go along with, as well as a specific scale.
Thus the scale is only a specific order of intervals that is used for a mode. A mode contains a scale and a specified melodic flow.
We can compare this to the modal systems of today's Eastern Music. I believe this has been explained before on this site, but I'll just re-state this
information. In Turkish Music, there is the seyir, meaning the "path." There are three different types of seyir, ascending, descending, and
ascending-descending seyir, with each containing their own melodic flow. The seyir is what determines how a Makam's melodic flow will sound. Thus we
have the same scale for two totally different makamlar. Makam Ussak, and Makam Bayati both have the exact same scales, although they have different
Seyir; Bayati having ascending-descending seyir, while Ussak having ascending seyir.
This also applies to Arabic Music, but I have not seen it dealt with in depth as much as it has been with Turkish Music. It is called Sayr in Arabic
Music, and for Maqam Bayati, there are at least four different types of Sayr. There is maqam Hussein Saba, which uses the third tonal degree almost as
its second tonic (this is my own definition), and Maqam hussein Niriz, using the lower Leading tone beneath the starting tonic more than it usually
would. Its funny, cause Maqam Bayati can be found a lot in Coptic Music, and I can think up at least four examples for each of these different
variations on Maqam Bayati. We will discuss these later.
Even in Persian Music, can we find that each Dastgah has an associated formula for melodic intervention known as the mayeh. In the context of Persian
music, the mayeh includes guidelines for the cadences, hierarchy of tones, related rhythms and acceptable melodic patterns for the Dastgah. Perhaps
the mayeh is the most specific melodic flow of the three different meloic flow of the different Eastern musical cultures (Turkish, Arabic, and
Persian). All these melodic regulations are what help us achieve a specific psychological outcome from the mode we hear. The melodic regulations for
the Egyptian mode, known as the asba (like Maqam for Arabs, Makam for Turks, Dastgah for Persians, and Raga for Indians) are mentioned by Plato in his
Collected Dialogues from the 7th century BC:
"That nation [Egypt], it would seem long enough ago recognized the truth we are now affirming, that poses and melodies must be good, if they
are to be habitually practiced by the youthful generation of citizens. So they drew up the inventory of all the standard types, and consecrated
specimens of them in thier temples...in this matter of music in Egypt, it is a fact, and a though-provoking fact, that it has actually proved
possible, in such a sphere, to canonize melodies which exhibit an intrinsic rightness permanently by law...So, as I was saying before, if we can but
detect the intrinsically right in such matters, in whatever degree, we should reduce them to law and system without misgiving, since the appeal to
feeling which shows itself in the perpetual craving for novel musical sensation can, after all, do comparitavely little to corrupt choric art, once it
has been consecrated, by deriding it as out of fashion..."
So, the Egyptians, at least according to this great philosopher, had their own regulations and laws for music, which I liken to the melodic
regulations drawn out for the modes of the Eastern musical cultures of today.
Because of these laws, which characterize the asba, we most probably will never know for sure what the different types of asabi that were used. We can
only predict today, of what we have of Coptic Music, and the old Egyptian village folkore music of Upper Egypt (both Coptic and Egyptian folk music,
are said to sound almost identical in musical style, and according to some ethnomusicologists, both share the same musical ancestor: Pharaonic
music).
More to come on connecting the wonders of ancient Egypt with the inherited treasures of Coptic Egypt...
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mavrothis
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Hi,
I don't want to take away from the core of this topic, but I just wanted to state that the Greek language is not directly descended from Egyptian or
Phoenician. The Ancient Greeks simply took the existing Phoenician alphabet and applied it to Greek, a very different language. Also, the use of
written vowels first came about at this time. All the ancient languages of the region are believed to have come from one mother language (at least
many think so) from a very early time, but there is no reason to believe that Greek is directly descended from either Phoenician or Egyptian.
Archaeological evidence does not seem to support in any way that the Ancient Greeks were not European in origin, nor do any linguistic studies. There
certainly is no strong Greek-Egyptian tie other than in trade and influence, which is very clear as far trade and general traveling would allow in
those times.
That's all about that, I'm really enjoying the musical and historical aspects of this thread. Thanks for all the great insight, the research on the
Ancient Egyptian instruments is really exciting. It's a great feeling to consider how tied we are through the music, it's one of the most rewarding
aspects of playing this music. I hope that my views here are not seen as negative or something, I am really enjoying the discussion.
Take care,
mav
ps - I think Beyati and Ussak in Ottoman music both are ascending/descending, but have other big differences, such as dominant notes, phrasing, and
timing - Ussak generally works its way to the fourth, while Beyati generally goes directly to it like Huseyni goes to the fifth.
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mikokiko
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Mavrothis, your views are in no way negative to this thread. They are adding to the flavour of the discussion and you are helping us learn here.
Thankyou for your views.
I just wanted to let you know that I in know way stated that the Greek alphabet came directly from the Egyptian. It's just that most scholars believe
that the Pheonican alphabet was derived from the Egyptian hieroglyphics. The Greek modern alphabet is thought to have descended from the Pheonican
alphabet. My friend who has studied classical Greek, tells me that the alpha did in fact come from the Egyptian letter Akhom (The eagle).
Concerning Herodotus' histories, as I stated before I am not firm in my belief that the Dorians have really descended from the Egyptians. You are most
probably right about the ancient Greeks not descending from the Egyptians.
If Herodotus really wrote his book from a mythological point of view, than we can conclude that the Dorians' ancestors were most likely not Egyptians.
This is only one point out of many I used to provide evidence for the fact that the Greeks in the past have had many connections with the Egyptian
nation. There is more to come about the Byzantine Oktoechos from the Coptic View and how they are similar to some of the Turkish Makamlar, which in
turn are also similar to some of the scales used in Coptic Music. This can point out the connection these two nations (Greek & Egyptian) had.
Aside from all this, I am prety sure that Makam Ussak and Makam Bayati's major difference lies in their seyir. Of course there are other differences
that you have mentioned (I lack a lot of knowledge in the field of Turkish Music). However you may be right. Obviously this does not change the fact
that you can have two different makamlar with same scales, because of their difference in melodic seyir.
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Peyman
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I know little about the makams. I know more about the Persian Dastgah system and since we're discussing makams, I am curious to ask if anyone knows
whether there is an equivalent to "Bayat-eh Tork" (Turkish Bayat) of Persian dastgahs. I use the word equivalent loosely, becuase I am noticing that
even though names apprear to be the same, the makam version and the radif version are very different. In Iran, the Quran singers use this mode a lot,
as well as the moazzens.
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mikokiko
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yes, it is a very popular mode. It is common to Coptic Music also, and Arabic Music. They also found an Egyptian Nay based on a D-scale with intervals
very similar to the Turkish rendering of Makam Bayati.
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al-Halabi
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From what I know, the Avaz of Bayat-e Tork is close to Mahur, which is similar to the major tonality, and also has elements of Shur, which is roughly
equivalent to Bayati. So there is some similarity with the Arab/Turkish Bayati, although the types of gushes used in the dastgah determine its main
feel and character.
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Peyman
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I guessed that Bayati might be the 'equivalent'. Thanks for clearing it.
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mavrothis
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Hey,
Sorry for my mistake with Herodotus, wow, that was a big one! I have definitely been away from the books too long! My apologies! How on earth did I
forget about the Persian wars?!?! His history was based on his own experiences, interviews, and his own personal views on events, which though
skewed, does not make his history based on mythical figures. I'ved edited that part of my post, and promise to try and not rush into anymore
posts!
About Beyati/Ussak, I only wished clarify a few details (which I am still trying to learn all the time myself), your point is certainly made about how
various makams can have the same core scale.
Sorry again for my very imperfect contribution! 
Take care,
mavrothis
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al-Halabi
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Peyman, the closest Persian equivalent to Bayati is dastgah of Shur. Its basic scale corresponds to that of Bayati, with the same sequence of
intervals. Bayat-e Tork does touch on Shur in some gushes, but overall it's not really similar.
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mikokiko
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No problem Mavrothis,
we all make mistakes. I myself had no clue about the more specific details about Makam Ussak and Makam Bayati; thanks for pointing those out for
us.
More to come on the discovery of the ancient Egyptian scale...
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Peyman
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| Quote: | Originally posted by al-Halabi
Bayat-e Tork does touch on Shur in some gushes, but overall it's not really similar. |
Al-Halabi, I was only thinking about the Daramad of Bayateh Tork. The gooshehs will always sway a dastgah up and down. But Shoor itself is considered
the mother mode in Persian music, giving rise to different dastgahs and avaz. ayateh Tork includes one of these branches.
Bayateh Tork is also known as Bayateh Zand, after the Turks that migrated to south of Iran, near Shiraz.
Also as you said, Bayateh Tork is similar to Mahoor. In G (sol) it's almost identical to Mahoor in C (do). As a matter of fact some mahoor gooshehs
can be played in B. Tork (But I have never seen Bayateh Tork being modulated to, or it's gooshehs being played in Mahoor, i.e. Dogah). Anyway, it's my
favorite mode to jam in  that's why I was inquiring about it.
Sorry, I hope I didn't throw your discussion off topic Mikokiko.
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mikokiko
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No problem Peyman. Just as long as you don't take it any further... you can use the U2U for further discussion, since it seems that it is only you and
Al-Halabi who are joining in it.
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zalzal
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Sorry but i am not adding nothing new. I just want to confirm my enormous interest on this thread although i can not add nothing interesting.
So i confirm that we are many to join this thread....."spiritually" and ask you please to share here as much as possible instead of exchanging through
U2U.
Anyway, if of any interest, I was just reading the french author Frédéric Lagrange book "Musiques d'Egypte", a good introduction for "ignorants"
like me, (the book is prefaced by Christian Poché).
There is a small chapter on coptic lythurgical music where he just remarks that "in adition to evident pharaonics and greek origins there are
reminiscences fm Antiochian church and synagogal songs."
He is citing scholars Erian and Menard.
Also i found this links which abounds on what is being said here. Sorry if they are redundant to you.
http://www.coptic.org/music/copmusic.htm
http://www.coptic.org/music/keraza75.htm
This one by Rene Menard for french readers is very interesting
http://www.coptic.org/music/prbl.htm
I translate very quickly part of the article. Apologize the approximate english
"Regarding the problem of modality, everything is still to be done. Villoteau cites the testimony of a coptic singer qho confirmed him the existence
of different tons. That is all that Villoteau could seriously said about the question because he recognize having fallen asleep during the audition of
these 10 tons.
Personally i have tried to research on this subject and i have been told fm diferent parties that in principle there existed 8 tons in the coptic
music.
Fm these 8 tons some were reserved for parties, some others for fasting days. Some of these 8 tons, finally? seems to have disappeared completely
nowadays......
.......Among the songs which we have notated some are evolving almost exclusively in a diminished tetrachord. Their mode could be assimilated to
ancient dorian (what theoriciens of modern melkite music call by mistake lydian mode first forme. Other songs (Sunday's and holidays Trysagion for
example could be assimilated to ancient hypolidien. But all of this must be deepened at, and it might be necessary to make first a serious study on
the modality of pharaonic music in order to study benefically the question of modality in coptic music."
Is it what you are doing Mikokiko ??
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zalzal
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Of course Mikokiko if above diverts fm the direction of the thread just redirect it at your convenience.
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mikokiko
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Zalzal, no don't worry I was just about to talk about this...
| Quote: | | Among the songs which we have notated some are evolving almost exclusively in a diminished tetrachord. Their mode could be assimilated to ancient
dorian (what theoriciens of modern melkite music call by mistake lydian mode first forme. Other songs (Sunday's and holidays Trysagion for example
could be assimilated to ancient hypolidien. But all of this must be deepened at, and it might be necessary to make first a serious study on the
modality of pharaonic music in order to study benefically the question of modality in coptic music." Is it what you are doing Mikokiko ??
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I myself think it is crucial when studying the modes of Coptic Music to also study and be familiar with the theory of some of the middle Eastern
musical cultures and their history, and the Pharaonic music, because I firmly believe they are all related to eachother through research.
The modes of Coptic Music have undoubtly been influenced by a great number of musical heritages. Of these is Greek music (Pre-Byzantine, and
Byzantine), Hebrew music, Arabic Music (Arab invasion of mid-seventh century), and Syriac Music of Antioch (The Coptic and Syrian Churches had very
strong ties with eachother in the first six centuries of Christianity, in fact there is one Coptic Monastery in Egypt which bears the name "Al-Deir
Al-Souriani," meaning the Syrian Monastery).
I again strongly believe our basic Egyptian musical elements have remained intact through the centuries, until this day. However the popular rendering
of most of our hymns has greatly changed in this past century. Thank God, that a great Coptic musical institute was started in the 50's, known as the
Higher Institute of Coptic Studies, in which the director of the Institute, Dr. Ragheb Moftah, records saying that he along with Dr. Ernest
newlandsmith (British Musicologist) took out all the "Arabic debris" in our hymns (this happened in the 1930's, but that's another story, that we
don't want to get into here(http://www.coptic.org/music/keraza75.htm)). (For many reasons I believe this to possible to some extent...I will talk about this in greater detail
later on...) I have to say the way they present their hymns are P-E-R-F-E-C-T!!! I have never heard a more "Coptic" way of chanting the hymns. They
retain the original spirit, and the way the say the liturgy and its hymns sound very "Natural," and it "flows" much better than the average priest and
choir of today would render the hymns. Trust me on this!
The eight modes (ten modes) you spoke about I will discuss soon, and they have strong ties to the Greek church...
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oudmaker
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mikokiko
You said and I quote " I firmly believe they are all related to each other" then you continue " through research" I think we are hooked up too much
into research rather then siting back and think HOW COME? How come people from different geography and time again and again come up with same sounds
and same intervals? Instead of looking for who influenced who: why not to THINK -not research- and try to find out what was the world's first
musician's ear got the sound and intervals from? What influenced him? Where he got an undestanding of music period? I got bombarded with names, books
and quotations in this tread; why we don't try to research the real source of influence? That is what I am doing please help me.
Regards
Dincer
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mikokiko
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oudmaker,
do not worry, all this researching and information will come to an end soon. All this researching will wear off soon, and the "academic" view of music
will be switched to a more philosophical and psychological standpoint.
Concerning the origin of the natural intervals, I believe the first musician sang in Natural intervals. It is impossible to sing in even-temperament.
When I sing a song based in a Western major Scale of equal-temperament, do you think I will really sing in exact 100 and 200 cent intervals? There is
no way! I am a human being, and like a natural instrument, my vocal chords can produce natural intervals. Natural intervals are an intrinsic part of
music!!! Why, almost all western music used the natural intervals up until the nineteenth century! You see you can limit music and say, "OK, we can
only use these three intervals, and no others, with these we are going to form scales and from them, melodies." YOU CAN'T DO THAT TO MUSIC!!! We only
use measurements (commas, buk-nunu, quater-tone, semi-tone) to be able to represent and interpret the sound intervals of the different scales. There
is an endless variety of natural sounds that we can produce and build with a group of them scales.
Through music, us humans express our emotions, feelings, sentiments, ideas, and thoughts. Music, arguably, is a essential neccesity of life. Sound
vibrations are important to us; they keep us healthy, mentally, and even physically, as it has been proved through science. Again, I bring up the
ancient Egyptians, because they placed such great importance on music and believed that it was directly related to all the other great mysteries of
life, such as astronomy, religion, medicene... The Essentiality of music for the Egyptians, required it to be present at all times and everywhere.
There could not be an feast, or occasion left without music. And there could definately not be any innovations in the way the music was played. The
youth of the day were strictly warned not to change their musical traditions, for it was, as they thought, THE IDEAL MUSICAL SYSTEM, complete with its
songs, modes, scales, rhythms, dances... In the temples, the Egyptian priests healed people with various diseases through the power of music.
Pythagoras tells us, "Music can cure madness and schizophrenia if we use it the right way..", Hippocrates alike tell us,
"Music is a tool for curing and each patient needs a special kind of music." Plato likewise indicated that music is the means to
provide cures for diseases for it finds its humble way of penetrating the human soul especially if it depicts human voices. At the beginning of the
rise of Christianity of Egypt, the Copts used the Psalm chanting as a way also to cure psychological and physical diseases, and were able to cure
diseases such as epilepsy. A large amount of research has been done on music and it has been found that it could decrease the blood pressure, improve
heart rate, induce sleep and relaxation and can help with low blood pressure. It also has been found that plants and animals have very positive and
noticeable ways of reacting to music.
This vitality of music, I find was not present with only the Egyptians, but all the ancient and older cultures of the past. The father we go back in
time the more music becomes more of a solemn and vital art. And the more we go gorward in time, the more it seems that music is perverted of the once
beautiful art it was, because of the pollution of modernism.
I find that this belief of mine is exactly as Villoteau, a French Expeditioner, sent by Napoleon to Egypt in the early nineteenth century, to describe
the music of Egypt (Both Secular and Sacred (This includes Coptic Music)), speaks of music in regards to what happens to it over time:
"As we return backwards in time to the ancient eras, we find that music was more prevailing, having a wider amplitude, noble and sober form,
and vice versa as we go near to the modern times, musical art starts to loose from its sobriety and austerity to become more trivial and fragile."
Just look and compare, rap, pop, and rock n' roll music with the rich old musical heritages of the Turks, Arabs, and Copts. WHAT A DIFFERENCE!
Modern Music certainly has lost this musical sobriety! Dr. Ernest Newlandsmith describes the modern age of music as "the somewhat spiritually
bankrupt state of much of our latter day music."
Music, as Dr. Ragheb Moftah describes it, "...elevates the spirit. It takes it from this tangible materialistic world towards the intangible
spiritual world. Art in general and music in particular fleshes out what is spiritual. It is the medium between spirituality and our material life.
Every beauty in nature shows elevation and every artistic inspiration demonstrates a level of elation. Music is not fantasy or distraction; it is part
of life and one of its most important elements. Musical talents are in each one of us. Some have the strength to express it and others have the
strength to feel it, enjoy it, and be touched by it."
This shows, how greatly important music is in our lives. It is our nourishment, WE NEED IT! It is like another form of speech; speech that can better
express our inner emotions. This is like what Jacob Jost tells us, saying, "When the capability of speech surceases, the music
starts..." Thus, we are bound with soo much variety of music. We have the musical culture of the chinese, and that of the Persians, North
Africans, the Spanish, the Greeks, the Russians, and of all the different nations of the world. Music is made up of several languages. You need to
understand a certain musical culture, like you would a language. You need to feel the music, be able to express yourself with it, and be able to
follow it. This is why when people for the first time hear all those different musical cultures, find that they sound too eccentric, and different
than those melodies of what they are used to hearing.
Villoteau, again tells us of the same thing, when describing Egyptian music saying, “Accustomed since early youth to the best works of our
composers, I had to tolerate music that rent my ears with its eccentric modulations and ornaments executed by harsh nasal voices, accompanied by
instruments either penetrating and discordant, or feeble and muffled. Such were the first impressions...If the Egyptian songs disturbed us, those of
the Copts rasped us even more..."
This does not go for music only, but every aspect of a lifestyle that is foreign to us. It becomes hard to get used to it.
So how do I tie all this in with the natural intervals? As I have said before, the natural intervals are limitless. You cannot put limits on them,
otherwise, they are not going to be natural. Thus, the greater variety of sounds we are able to use, the more expressive power we can put into a song.
Like painting a picture, the more colour we have available, the better we can make the picture look. The Emotions become more specified, and the
feeling we get from a scale becomes more appropriated. However with equal-temperament, it's like trying to paint a picture but with only three
different colours...
These are just my beliefs, I am open to criticism...
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oudmaker
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mikokiko
Beautiful, keep on going. I can not wait to enjoy your thoughts when you make the switch. I am whole hardly agree with the fact of "natural music" and
do practise it for 58 years!
If you don't hear from me more frequently don't think that I give up of this thread. I just don't have enough writing skills in English.
Best Regards
Dincer
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mikokiko
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O.K., this will be my last post on the scales of the ancient Egyptians...
Egyptsound, a research team of Americans and Egyptians have sought out to discover these scales of the ancient Egyptians by observing the preserved
Nays from the different Museums. They started with four different ones.
In the past, western ethnomusicologists who studied and researched ancient Egyptian music came to a deadlock because to be able to discover the scales
of the Egyptians they had to be able to play the Nays which did not have reeds like the Western flute of today have. They lacked this skill and
required modern Egyptian Nay players to be able to play these Nays. So this team made exact replicas and got the a famous Egyptian Nay player to play
exact replicas of the Nays.
Before conducting the experiment, the reseatch team were motivated by three unanswered questions:
1. Were the Greeks the first people to know the diatonic scale ?
2. What are the different scales played by the ancient Egyptians ?
3. What are the relation between the ancient Egyptian scales?
All these Nays were made sure to have been made out of nile bamboo, to ensure that these were ancient Egyptian Nays, tuned to ancient Egyptian
scales.
After conducting the experiment, the research team found that out of the four Nays there were three that were Diatonic, and one Pentatonic scale
dating to the Middle Kingdom. All of the Nays were found to have their sales to add up to approximately 1200 cents, as is the universal musical
concept. Out of the four Nays, three of the scales' tonic was F, while one being A. Of these four Nays, all were found to contain microtonal intervals
of the Natural scale. The Pentatonic scale is found to be very common among ancient cultures. I can imagine that this Pentatonic scale, containing
microtonalities, was something similar to the pentatonic scales of North Africa today. For example Maqam Rast Al-Mayah is a North African pentatonic
maqam.
Nay CG 69814 comes from Beni Hassan and dates to the Middle Kingdom. It gives the Pentatonic scale, missing the seventh and third notes of the
Diatonic scale. It is based on F.
Nay CG 69817 was found at Deir Al-Medina, and dated back to the 18th dynasty of the New Kingdom. It gives a Diatonic scale (Scale with seven succesive
notes, and the tonic (first note) played as the eigth note on octave higher (with a doubled frequency)) of what would be the Western equivalent of an
A-minor melodic scale, but again with the fourth note flatter than it would be in Contemporary Western music.
Nay CG 69815 was found at Sakkara with unknown dating and gave a diatonic scale based on F. This one is quite amazing, because it causes a problem for
popular musical belief today (I will discuss this later on in this post). This Nay gives a scale very similar to that of Makam Rast (With what would
seem to be Makam Rast with an upper Tetrachord equivalent to Gins Nahawand). Nay CG 69816 gave a very similar scale with the third and seventh notes
half way between the half step and three-quarter step (This is how they described it).
They concluded the fllowing from these discoveries:
- The ancient Egyptians had a Pentatonic scale in the middle kingdom that developed at the beginning of the new kingdom to a Diatonic Scale.
- The ancient Egyptians had in addition another arabic diatonic scale very similar to Makam Rast which was thought to have originated in Persia. The
Persians must have adopted such a scale when they had dwelt in Egypt, and later have transfered to the Arabic Civilization.
- There is a fascinating correlation between the frequencies produced from different flutes which suggests the presence of a means for calibration of
these instruments.
All this conclusion came from only four Nays, but the research team believes that if they analyze the other many Nays available in the Museums of
Egypt.
Now, there is something very peculiar that I find about these scales. After calculating it myself, I found that each scale did in fact consist of
commas and buk-nunu, and that each scale totalled to about 159 buk-nunu (53 commas).
However, when comparing these to the scales of what is used in side the Coptic Church, I found that of these four, three (all the diatonic ones) are
in fact used. However the tonic is different. It contains of the same tonal intervals but with a different starting point. For example, Nay CG 69817,
gives an A-minor melodic scale if played rom its lowest note, but if played one note up, to a note higher from its initial octave, it plays an almost
exact Makam Kurd. And if we raise the tonic one degree higher in the scale of Nay CG 69815, instead of getting Makam Rast, we get Makam Ussak (Maqam
Bayati), which I find much more common in practice at church. It is very popular and frequently used (however with toanl interval variatons around its
second note, depending on the hymn; this will be discussed in another post). However, I have only found one hymn up till know that uses the same scale
as Makam Rast. The same goes with Nay CG 69816, which like Nay CG 69815, gives a similar scale, although giving tonal difference on the third note (a
bit more flattened).
Stay tuned for a little brief history on the establishment of the early Coptic Church and its connection with ancient Egypt, the Hebrew Temple, and
the ancient Greeks...
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oudmaker
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Mikokiko
I sent you U2U
Dincer
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mikokiko
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Hey guys, sorry for not replying sooner, I have been getting really caught up in my studies lately.
Anyways, as I said, I will be discussing the historical roots and origins of the Coptic Church. In the past, the Christian Old Testament, and the
Hebrew Scriptures tell us that many prophets went to Egypt, like Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, the sons of the Israelites, Moses, and Jeremiah. According to
the Gospel of St. Matthew the Apostle, in the New Testament, Lord Jesus did travel with His Virgin mother to Egypt. Till this day, the event is
celebrated by both Copts and Muslims in Egypt.
Around them middle of the first century, the Evangelist St. Mark came to preach Christianity to the Egyptians. He came through from Upper Egypt, and
entered Alexandria through the eastern gate. Alexandria was known to be one of the greatest cities of the world, and the second international city
next to Rome. Its lighthouse was one of the seven wonders. Alexandria was also well known for its great palaces and many hotels, and its huge library,
known as the largest on in the ancient world, with manuscripts of both Egyptian and Greek philosophers, astronomers and scientists.
So as I was saying, St. Mark entered from the eastern gate, into the Royal Greek quarter of the city, while on the other side, on the west, known as
"Rakoti" (Coptic and ancient Egyptian for Alexandria), was primarily occupied by the Egyptians, and in the north was the Jewish quarter. St. Mark
spread the Christian faith to all of the different races of people that dwelt in that city; Its population was 750,000 at the time, a mixed population
of Egyptians, Greeks, Jews, Nubians, Ethiopians and many other various races. This is like the present population of Jacksonville (Non-metropolitan),
Florida, the 13th most populated city in the U.S. at present.
At this time, the primary language among the educated was Greek; whether Egyptian or Nubian or Ethiopian or Jewish. Although the Egyptian language was
still in use, but much more so in the lest hellenized cities of Egypt (Thebes - Luxor or Memphis - Cairo). The Egyptian language, as scholars have
grouped them, is divided into six main chronological divisons:
1. Archaic Egyptian (before 2600 BC)
2. Old Egyptian (2600 BC – 2000 BC)
3. Middle Egyptian (2000 BC – 1300 BC)
4. Late Egyptian (1300 BC – 700 BC)
5. Demotic (seventh century BC – fifth century AD)
6. Coptic (second – fourteenth century AD)
So, around this time it was the second last stage of the Egyptian language; the Demotic, that was being used among the Egyptian population.
The Egyptians that embraced Christianity towards the middle of the first century, established their own church chants, just as all other nations that
embraced christianity developed thier church chants, each according to the genius of their own music. Dr. Ragheb Moftah, who in collaboration of
research with other Egyptian musicologists believed, adn theoretically concieved that, "...the Christian inhabitants of the Nile valley,
inherited their artistic talents of their ancestors, and their ecclestiastical chants, especially the pathetic ones, have their roots which reach back
to the Old Kingdom of ancient Egypt.
Scientific research has proven that the music of the Coptic Church is the most ancient ecclesiastical music in existence, and constitutes the oldest
school of music which the world now possesses. The Coptic Church owes the preservation of this monumental and invaluable heritage of its
ecclesiastical music to its conservative nature inherited from ancient times."
There is no way of actually confirming this as a truth and fact, but we can assume that many of the Egyptian hymns that were established at that time
were greatly influenced, or dare I say, continuations of the ancient Egyptian pharaonic culture. Which makes perfect sense, since when the Egyptians
converted they could not change their musical style all of a sudden in order to match the faith. They could not rid their music which lived in their
being, as music survives in us and in all of life’s aspects. It persists with every characteristic of culture, heritage, tradition, custom,
background and ethnicity. So that when they were inspired to compose these new hymns they did not loose the music, but rather these chants may have
well included pharaonic themes, because the musical sentences that were already subconciously stored in the minds of the ancient Egyptians. They were
then sent to the mind when they matched the emotions and feelings to be expressed. So, their faith was changed, but their musical identity as
Egyptians was retained.
Al-Farabi himself asserted in his book, "The Great Musician," that music cannot be created from nothing. No matter how hard we try when we come to
compose a song, we cannot rid ouselves from the influences we have had from our ery young childhood. By the age of 3, one has already developed the
fundamentals of his musical background. This is why, I often find that when a Western-born musician enters into the Arab world of music, and attempts
at composing, I don't hear that Middle Eastern Arabic "feel" that is missing.
Philo the Jewish Alexandrian philosopher, who was said to be the cousin of St. Mark, recorded for us and described the practices of the early Egyptian
Christians:
"They not only practice contemplation but also compose songs and hymns to God in all kinds of meters and melodies, setting them, as might be
expected, to solemn measures."
And again, he writes decribing their hymnal orders sayng,
“And then some one rising up sings a hymn which has been made in honor of God, either such as he has composed himself, or some ancient one
of some old poet, for they have left behind them many poems and songs in trimetric iambics, and in psalms of thanksgiving and in hymns, and songs at
the time of libation, and at the altar, and in regular order, and in choruses, admirably measured out in various and well diversified strophes. And
after him then others also arise in their ranks, in becoming order, while every one else listens in decent silence, except when it is proper for them
to take up the burden of the song, and to join in at the end; for then they all, both men and women, join in the hymn.”
Many scholars have come to theorize that many of the early hymns of the Coptic Church were really taken from the melodies of ancient church chants
which I can perfectly understand, since the Egyptians were extremely conservative in nature towards the art and culture, nothing could be changed!
Plato records telling us in description that the Egyptians "...were forbidden to introduce any innovations in music." They taught their youth from
their early ages to excell in the Egyptian arts of music, and could not change a thing.
Herotodus, as mentioned before, spoke of the preserved song that the Egyptians claimed to have preserved for very long time:
"This song agrees exactly with that which the Hellenes sing calling on the name of Linos, so that besides many other things about which I
wonder among those matters which concern Egypt, I wonder especially about this, namely whence they got the song of Linos. It is evident however that
they have sung this song from immemorial time, and in the Egyptian tongue Linos is called Maneros. The Egyptians told me that he was the only son of
him who first became king of Egypt, and that he died before his time and was honoured with these lamentations by the Egyptians, and that this was
their first and only song."
I can only imagine how beautiful this sorrowful song must have been. It was these kinds of hymns that survive through the years and years, because
they touch the hearts of people, and is a means of expression of feelings and faith.
Some hymns in the Coptic Church are believed to have taken their music from ancient Egyptian ones but changed the lyrics to Christian ones. One of
these hymns is "Epouro ente Ti-hirini", meaning, "O King of Peace." I have heard the theory that the tune for this hymn was taken from a majestic
ancient Egyptian song sung by the musicians when welcoming the Pharaoh as he entered into the royal courts and proceeded to his throne. Its funny
because such rituals have clear parallels in the rituals of today's Coptic Church. While chanting this hymn the deacons of the church, who sing this
hymn, enter through the nave of the church towards the altar, considered a symbol of the throne of God, just as the pharoah was believed to be a god.
Also, during weddings, the bridegroom is taken down the nave of the church along with the deacons. The bridegroom, in the Orthodox Christian concept,
is considered to be the King of the family household, as his wife is the Queen. This hymn is beautiful, joyful and very majestic. It is always sung on
feast days in the church. If we are to give it an Arabic Music Maqam equivalent it would be Maqam Bayati, more similar to the tuning of the second
note like in Makam Bayati in Turkish Music. Here is a link to the hymn: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Songs/Coptic/David_Ensmble/Coptic_Hymns.html... the first audio file on the page is this hymn.
Another hymn believed to be taken from the melody of ancient Egyptian temple chant, was said to have originated from one sung at the mumification
procedure of the pharaoh who was considered a god. The hymn is now reffered to as, "Ghoulghoutha" taken from the first word of the its text. Golgotha,
the mountain where the Lord Jesus was believed to have died. This hymn is chanted during the twelfth and final hour of Good Friday. During the
recitation of this hymn, the deacons are all gathered together in the sanctuary, surrounding the altar table. All dressed in their mournful deacon
garments, chanting this deep sorrowful, but hopeful and humbling hymn, while the priest anoints the flowers covered across the altar, symbolizing the
body of the Lord Jesus when He was buried being anointed with myrrh and aloes by St. Nicodemus and St. Joseph. Its tune is recitated in a meditative
repetitive manner. This hymn uses the scale equivalent of Makam Gaharkah. I shed tears everytime I hear this hymn, it is so beautiful! Here is a link
to the hymn: http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Songs/Coptic/David_Ensmble/Coptic_Hymns.html... the second audio file on the page is this hymn.
Another hymn believed to have taken its tune from an old Egyptian chant is Pek-ethronos, also chanted during the twelfth hour of Good Friday. The Holy
Passion Week seems to contain the most hymns with roots that date back to ancient Egypt. This hymn is believed to have originated from a song chanted
to the Pharaoh at the occasion of his death. The first half of this chant’s melody was mournful and deeply sorrowful, lamenting over the departure
of the Pharaoh from the world, for he would not live amongst them anymore. The second half of the chant was joyful, rapturous, majestic, and hopeful.
The second half of the chant commemorated the re-coronation and enthronement of the Pharaoh as a god in the afterlife, which the Egyptians were happy
for. He was believed to have traveled in the sun boat, to the sun god Ra.
In the Coptic Church, this hymn is chanted with the words of the majestic psalm, "Your Throne, O God, is forever and ever!" we sing this at the hour
in which we commemorate the hour which the Lord Jesus was believed to have died. So, we are acknowledging that He died, but on the third day He rose
again, and that He is the immortal God. Do you see the similarites with the Pharaonic beliefs?
Here is a link to the hymn, unfortunately there are not that many recordings for this hymn on the net, so we are left with this recording from the
Institute of Coptic Studies Choir in Cairo recorded in bad quality from the 50's.
http://tasbeha.org/mp3/Hymns/Other_Occasions/Holy_Week/Higher_Insti... - It is the sixth audio file from the top.
Many hymns also bear the names of ancient villages that perished long ago in Egypt. For example the names of the different melodies of the Psalms
carry the names of these different villages. The festive melody for the Psalms chanted on the great Lordly Feasts bears the name the Singary tune. Its
name originates from an ancient Egyptian village called Sinjar, near Rosetta in the Delta, since the time of Ramses II. It became famous in the Coptic
Era, because of the numerous monasteries that were built around the city and the church there where two Popes were elected.
The Attribis Tune used for the hymns, psalms, and gospels during the Holy Pascha Week and Funerals also bears the name of an ancient Egyptian village
that perished long ago. Its name was Edribah, north of Benha, which once stood near present day Sohag. This village had a temple with twelve altars
that was converted into a church by St. Shenute the Archmandrite. St. Apanoub the child martyr was also tortured in this town.
Many other Pharaonic landmarks remained with the Egyptians after their conversion; the language is one. Even the little things like the pagan priests
of ancient Egypt would never give their backs to the statues of the gods and goddesses while leaving the room of the Holy of the Holies in the temple,
but would leave facing the statues. This tradition was kept in the church when the priest would leave the altar he would leave facing the altar so he
never gives his back to God. The rituals were kept but the understanding of the faith was renewed to give new colour to these rites.
There are also ancient Egyptian artistic styles that reached their way to the Coptic Iconography, the same artistic styles that were found on the
walls of the temples and the pyramids. In the Icon of Archangel Michael he holds in his hands the symbols that the goddesses Ma’at, the god of
balance and order is depicted holding on the walls of ancient Egypt. These are symbols of judgment as the Lord Jesus says in the Bible that the angels
are the ones who will judge the world. Another Icon is that of St. Parsouma the Naked. Notice the posture of his hands. Compare this with this statue
of Pharaoh Akhenaton. Here is another icon of St. Mary and her son Jesus Christ. There are many ancient icons depicting Jesus Christ being breastfed
by his mother, St. Mary. Compare this with this statue of the goddess Isis breastfeeding her son. It is also said that the Coptic icon, of St. George
battling the Dragon, originated from the painting of Horus and Seth from Pharaonic Egypt. This Coptic Icon of St. George and the Dragon influenced
many other paintings in the Western world.
It is also known that many Copts even after conversion kept many names from their ancient ancestors such as Mina, Ahmos, and Ramsis for men, Isis,
Nofert, Nefertiti, and Nitocris for women.
Another example is the ancient Egyptian calendar which was preserved through the Coptic Calendar. This calendar is believed to have first appeared
around the time of King Djoser in 2670 B.C. This was the first solar calendar to be constructed as a result of the brilliancy of the mathematicians
and philosophers of the day. It was the root for the Gregorian calendar that we now use in the modern day. Just like the Coptic calendar, its direct
descendant, it had twelve months each with thirty days, and five days at the end of the year which added up to 365 days. The beginning of the Egyptian
corresponds with September 11th with the Gregorian calendar and on the jump year it is September 12th. The month consisted of three seasons, each
season consisting of four months. First season was known as Akhet, which was the flooding of the Nile. The second was known as Peret, which was the
Growth season, of the crops. And finally the third season was known as Shomu, which was the season of Harvesting. For each season the Coptic Church
till this day prays concerning each of these seasons in the liturgy. For the first season the priest says, Bless the plants and herbs, the second he
says, bless the air of the heavens, and for the third season he says, Bless the water. The First season was The name of each month was associated with
a god or goddess. For example the first month of the year, Tout, originates itself from the name of the god Toth, the god of wisdom, or the famous
month Kiahk, deriving itself from Ka Ha Ka, who was the sacred Apis bull. The names of these months did not change even after conversion. This
calendar was revived during the reign of the Emperor Nero to be able to commemorate the many martyrs that were being tortured and killed during that
time. The calendar continued on in the church with use of recording the biographies of the saints, all compiled together in book called the
Synexarium. These are just a few examples of the landmarks of ancient Egypt that survived in our church until this very day.
More to come, on the history of Coptic Music in Egypt and the psychological effect of the Coptic musical heritage on the human...
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