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kuharido
Oud Lover
Posts: 24
Registered: 3-8-2004
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Hey guys thanks .
Mr.Adel , thanks for asking mike to post the video
Mike , thanks for posting the video !
mavrothis , yes i didnt forget walnut , it one of the cheaper woods but it should sound good . In fact i've kind of narrowed down my choices to
either Palisander (Indian Rosewood) or Walnut . The latter is about a couple of hundred dollars cheaper .
As for the Fingerboard andpegs , i am pretty convinceed with ebony
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
Registered: 8-15-2003
Location: Sweden
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| Quote: | Originally posted by kuharido
Hey guys thanks .
Mr.Adel , thanks for asking mike to post the video
Mike , thanks for posting the video !
mavrothis , yes i didnt forget walnut , it one of the cheaper woods but it should sound good . In fact i've kind of narrowed down my choices to
either Palisander (Indian Rosewood) or Walnut . The latter is about a couple of hundred dollars cheaper .
As for the Fingerboard andpegs , i am pretty convinceed with ebony |
kuharido, before you order a custom built oud, you have to listen and play on different models and by different makers. The different woods we have
been discussing make different sounding ouds. There are lot of other aspects like shape and size for the bowl and mensur.
Ebony for fingerboard is a perfect choice since rosewoods are to soft for a fretless instrument.
Best wishes
Ronny
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kuharido
Oud Lover
Posts: 24
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Hey Ronny , yes i guess , can we talk more about it ? I want an egyptian style oud , i am not sure what size should i go with , or shape for that
matter . Sorry i am asking a lot but there isnt much resources about this on the net , and i already searched the forums . (The excelent forums let me
add) .
Also , can anyone please email me Fathi Amine's workshop contact iunfo/Address ?
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
Posts: 724
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Take a look here Egypt
Best wishes
Ronny
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kuharido
Oud Lover
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Thanks a lot for the link , very interesting read , guys check it ,
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
The oud Adel played on is typical for an oud with a bowl made of sycamore. I've played this type of oud with bowl made of the oriental sycamore
- Platanus orientalis.The oud had a very clear bas register that was not so strong as it uses to be and the sound was little bit weaker than an
identical model built of Indian rosewood - palisander. Suitable for chamber music and with a vocalist.This is one of the traditional woods for the oud
making! Our ideals have changed. |
Ronny can you please tell me more about the difference in those 2 identical models ? Its a matter of taste but which did you prefer ? I dont want
something too sharp/bright/twangy , but i also dont want anythign too blurred
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: |
Ronny can you please tell me more about the difference in those 2 identical models ? Its a matter of taste but which did you prefer ? I dont want
something too sharp/bright/twangy , but i also dont want anythign too blurred |
Sure, both had the same bowl dimensions and the one made of Plane tree (sycamore) was unusual for me when the sound was a surprise for me. I had also
the opportunity to play a Bashir oud made of the same wood. This Bashir had a standard shallow projective Bashir bowl, and it was surprisingly weak
sounding and it was a singer who had ordered it! The Indian rosewood (same as Palisander) had much better projection and fuller register with clear
basses that was not dominating or blurred over the trebles with a good penetrating top c and f . Mahogany is also a weaker sounding wood but not as
Plane tree. I prefer rosewood for the music I play.
Best wishes
Ronny
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wfspark
Oud Junkie
Posts: 166
Registered: 3-7-2004
Location: San Antonio Texas
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Mood: Oud entranced!
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Woods
| Quote: | Originally posted by Adel
Hi Kuharido,
you said you are going to Egypt.
Play and test all ouds and then buy what you like.
Salamat,
Adel |
Hello Adell. What do you think of wallnut? I've seen some wallnut ouds at Yehia's Nile shop
store. Do wallnut ouds have brighter tone? are they any good? Thanks.
William F. Sparks
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wfspark
Oud Junkie
Posts: 166
Registered: 3-7-2004
Location: San Antonio Texas
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Mood: Oud entranced!
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Eraydin ouds.
| Quote: | Originally posted by kuharido
Thanks a lot for the link , very interesting read , guys check it ,
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
The oud Adel played on is typical for an oud with a bowl made of sycamore. I've played this type of oud with bowl made of the oriental sycamore
- Platanus orientalis.The oud had a very clear bas register that was not so strong as it uses to be and the sound was little bit weaker than an
identical model built of Indian rosewood - palisander. Suitable for chamber music and with a vocalist.This is one of the traditional woods for the oud
making! Our ideals have changed. |
Ronny can you please tell me more about the difference in those 2 identical models ? Its a matter of taste but which did you prefer ? I dont want
something too sharp/bright/twangy , but i also dont want anythign too blurred |
Hello Kuharido. I have
another sight you can go to for good quality ouds. Go to http://www.eraydinsazevi.com.tr. Mr. Haluk Eraydin, one of the members of this forum, makes good quality ouds. His ouds maintain consistant
quality even in the beginner moddles. His ouds have a nice deep bowl made of either wenge wood or purple rosewood. Mine is the learner two moddle,
which has a rosewood bowl with spruce top. To me, it's got a good penetrating high regester, and a nice warm bass and mid range. Let me know what
you think.
William F. Sparks
Ps, Most of the quality instruments I've seen are rosewood instruments. The only thing I wouldn't get in rosewood is bagpipes. The suck to
crap!
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Simple Harmonic Oscillator
| Quote: | Originally posted by Ronny Andersson
| Quote: | Originally posted by Zulkarnain
Hi Adel
Does the weight count between cedar and spruce. Spruce seems lighter.
Regards |
Why do you think so? |
I would think so, theoritically at least, but I haven't experimented with that many Ouds.
Here is why I think so: The sound board couples with the end of the string at the bridge. As the string vibrates it executes what is called Simple
Harmonic Motion and causes the sound board to oscillate also. The natural frequency of oscillation for a Simple Harmonic Oscillator is given by
f=(1/2pi)Sqrt(k/m), where m is mass. And k is a constant which is kind of a measure of the flexibilty of the board.
Therefore, I would think that the heavier the sound board material is, the louder it will resonate at lower frequencies (bass). And the less stiff
the sound board material is, the louder it would tend to resonate at higher frequencies.
I am interested in knowing if what, you good people on this forum who own, play and/or have tried different types of Ouds, have experienced, agrees or
disagrees with my analysis.
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spyrosc
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
Registered: 9-18-2003
Location: Northern California, USA
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Oud Physics
The Physics of a vibrating surface (the soundboard) is a little more complicated than that especially when the bracing comes into play.
First of all the simple formula you are using is for a "particle" simple harmonic oscillator. In a modified form it applies to the strings
(you have to worry about linear mass density there) but that's not what's true for a vibrating plate.
Also are you confusing loudness (amplitude) with frequency ?
Faruk Turunz the well-known Turkish oud maker has been doing some research on the matter and you might be interested to look up his site. Do a Search
for "Faruk Turunz".
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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Oud Physics
| Quote: | Originally posted by spyrosc
The Physics of a vibrating surface (the soundboard) is a little more complicated than that especially when the bracing comes into play.
First of all the simple formula you are using is for a "particle" simple harmonic oscillator. In a modified form it applies to the strings
(you have to worry about linear mass density there) but that's not what's true for a vibrating plate.
Also are you confusing loudness (amplitude) with frequency ?
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Hello,
It was not my intention to say that it is that simple (eventhough the word Simple is there), but I was trying to give kind of a ball park
approximation which contains a mass element. And of course the Bracing in all of its aspects plays a huge role in the sound. However the mass and
density of the sound board material plays a role also. My approach is to look at the effects of each element seperately the combine these effects
properly.
As for the loudness and frequency I never stated that they are the same. The concept that I am talking about is: the string drives the vibration in
the sound sound board. And the closer the natural frequency of the sound board is to the driving frequency, the more conditions for resonance become
favorable so we get larger loudness or amplitude at such string frequency.
I assume you are an Oud maker. Are you saying that the material of the sound board doesn't play any role in the sound charactaristics of the
stringed instrument?
And if it does, can you lend us some insight based on your Oud building experience, of how does it affect it (i.e. Denser enforces lower frequencies
or the other way, etc...)?
Thanks
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spyrosc
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
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Location: Northern California, USA
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Oud Physics
My dear Elie,
I'm sorry if I sounded in any way unfriendly. No I'm not an oud maker, and nowhere near an expert. I'm an "oud experimenter and
repairman". I like to collect old and broken ouds which I then take apart and try to understand the construction techniques of the old masters
(similar to what Dr. Oud was doing many years ago). In another lifetime I was a Physicist and Engineer so I try to analyze things like you.
I'm also trying to experiment with alternative bracings. I have some ideas which are "off the beaten path" that may turn out to be
promising (I hope).
What we have here is forced standing waves in a plate (the soundboard) that is tied down around the edges and has holes in it, which complicate the
analysis. There is some symmetry and I'm working on that.
I apologize if I misread your post concerning frequency and amplitude, of course the mass (actually the density) of the soundboard is important, but
the difficult part is its "stiffness".
When I have some reliable results I will share them with all. The desirable end is to come up with better sound for our beloved instrument. I
don't have any other ambition.
Please feel free to communicate with me with your ideas.
Peace
Spyros C.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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Cool!
Hello Spyros,
Cool dude, my background is in physics also and just started to get interested in tackling the physics of oud. Unfortunately, I do not have access to
many different ouds and haven't seen the inside of one in real life. Well, I did very minor improvements to mine such as replacing the plastic
rosettes and re-reaming the peg holes and making new pegs. So I did look inside with a mirror at the bracing pattern when I had the rosette out, but
I do not realy have a quatitative way to judge an oud. My oud has a sticker inside which says that it is made by Yaseen Ali Khalifah, Jopar,
Demascus, Syria and I know nothing about this maker. My brother who gave me the oud as a gift in Lebanon, said that he didn't spend a lot of
money for it and that it was a student model. The oud sounds okay as far as I can tell.
Anyway, I will also share my findings and thoughts. And I hope to gain the knowledge I'm after someday.
Peace my friend.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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Bravo!
| Quote: | Originally posted by Adel
it sound very good
but stay with us to listen to a sycamore oud
Adel |
Hello Adel,
I am new to the forum and playing oud but not to the music. This piece you played is impressive. Thanks for sharing.
Can you give me some advice on the right hand technique?
Also, I may be getting fooled by the oval appearance of the sound holes into assuming that the oud is a Bashir type oud, is it?
What tunning were you using?
Very cool man! More! More! We want more...
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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Mood: better than before
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| Quote: | Originally posted by spyrosc
...What we have here is forced standing waves in a plate (the soundboard) that is tied down around the edges and has holes in it, which complicate the
analysis. There is some symmetry and I'm working on that...
Peace
Spyros C. |
While the oud may appear to have symmetry, there are subtle differences evident in all of the master made instruments I have mesured. Considering the
difference in tension between the bass (metal wound) and treble (nylon/gut/whatever) strings, You would expect the face to distort unevenly. The old
masters seem to have countered this imbalance by making the face thicker on the bass side and/or shifting the shape of the major tone braces (from
the large rose to the tail end). While experimentation continues by some builders, I feel that the results of thousands of years of trial and error
have evolved to produce ouds with the sound we recognize and covet. I am content to continue with the traditional designs, but if you find a better
way, lemme know!
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spyrosc
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
Registered: 9-18-2003
Location: Northern California, USA
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Mood: Grateful
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Oud research
Dear Richard,
Nothing gives me more pleasure or perks up my attention more than listening to your opinion and benefiting from your experience.
I have great respect for tradition and the old masters. After all, I grew up in the Middle East and these things are part of my soul.
However, for thousands of years people would not dispute Aristotle although he turned out to be wrong in almost everything he said.
So, as you said, there's always room for experimentation and research.
I will continue learning.
Thanks for everything
Spyros C.
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