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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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I'd go for the lower part as it looks more in-line with the overall apparent (and inaccurate) perspective, I'll test in 3D later on (I don't have the
3D soft on my laptop).
Marina I like your spirals, a great base for a curly oud designed after the Marina-cci spiral.
And oudipoet you are right about the distance between the bridge and the hole, I personally like to play in front of the hole, but in fact I have
another more classical face design and I was talking with Fadi Matta on the possibility of trying the 2 designs (as part of the experiment)
Here is the second design
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Another experimental idea is the rosette, it has been used on lutes.
The idea is to have a 2 thin layers of the same rosette, a simple flower of life design, also based on the spiral (obviously I am developing a
spiralomania syndrom).
The upper layer would be fixed on the inner part of the face and the lower can be rotated to "close" or "open" the hole, I think it would have a
considerable influence on the sound.
Here is the idea "in action"
(mp4, open with Quicktime player)
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Microber
Oud Junkie
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Oh ! I want such a rosette.
It makes me thinking of the electric moucharabie of the Institut du Monde Arabe in Paris that open and close automatically depending on the sunny or
cloudy weather.
Once again, very interresting post, Alami. 
Robert
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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I have never seen that particular rosette design on surviving lutes.
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oudipoet
Oud Junkie
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the idea of rosette is great but we should not forget that the face of an oud vibrates a lot as other instruments so incase of any space betwen these
2 layers of rosette might cause some vibrant sound as you play unless they are very well tightened.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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The latest catalogue from Lee Valley Tools of Ottawa
http://www.leevalley.com arrived by mail today.
A new item is a range of scale rulers for laying out the "Golden Ratio" PHI (Catalogue# 06K30.06 to 06K30.50) ranging in price from $2.25 Can. to a
set of four rulers at $24.50Can. (currently on special at $19.50).
Interesting, but not sure if these would be of much use for this project!
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Nice and practical idea, but to draw golden ratios all you need is a ruler and a compass. This project was going until now in the virtual world of 3D
cad and it is the advantage (and the problem): there is always a way back, "undo" is so much easier than "unglue".
I found out that there is no "one golden-mean design" and that there is a lot of possibilities so I kept exploring for a maximum geometrical harmony
in a design, I am now in my fourth model and this one is a more conventional oud but with an amazing number of relations between the main 9
construction points, they are connected with 10 Golden ratios and ten "equals".
here's where I got: the sections plan and the 3d preview and an illustration of the many "harmonies" in this design
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Funny, Looking back to ronnie's post, it seems that I am ending up with an oud version very close to the Arnault de Zwolle (theoretical) design, it
may be logical as I am using the same rules.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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After being through 6 different models, I was feeling that this oud project was not going to a new territory as I was hoping.
When I plotted my last model #6 in 1:1 scale I realized that it has the same domensions as my Nahat only with a bigger bowl.
I compared my models with tens of oud pictures and I found out that the ratio 1.6 is widely used, probably remaining from old ways or simply through
experience.
I can now say that golden mean was always in a way or another in oud making.
The idea was to try to design something new based on a golden mean approach, so I went back to my starting Fibonacci spiral.
Leon mentioned asymmetry in his post, but I was unable to find a "harmonic" asymetry (from a geometry pov), I discarded a few asymmetrical designs.
Then I found a way to "harmonize" things by a Phi ratio of asymmetry: roughly by saying that 1 on the lower side is "equal" to 1,618 on the upper
side.
And then like in the first model, things start falling down easily in their place.
The result is a totally asymmetric oud, it is not only about a cutaway bowl, it is totally assymetric but still harmonious oud.
The axis of the oud is running along the lower side of the fingerboard and rhe lower side of the bridge.
It is a 60cm scale length with 20cm fingerboard (on the upper side of the bowl-Fingerboard intersection).
Can it be done?
How this face can be braced ?
What do you think guys ?
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Another set of previews
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zalzal
Oud Junkie
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extended fingerboard?? you??
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
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Het Alami, this is one great tread, I love it - but who could attempt to build it? I'd love to hear it played. That treble curve would be strong on
the back - I bet bracing would be minimal, especialy if braced to curve the top like a Karibyan (or my Haluk for that matter!! he has good tricks up
his luthiers sleeve, I've been measuring the top).
You're a very talented and imaginative bloke.
Thanks
Leon
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Ararat66
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Also you would be able to play right up the neck (without the dreaded cutaway Ughh).
Leon
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Jameel
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Whoa. Incredible renderings! I don't think I have the guts to make a bowl in that shape. Heck, the mould itself would be a challenge. Nazih made a
bowl similar to that shape once. Not as radical, but similar. I wish I had the knowledge and software to do renderings like that. It would really
help in designing ouds.
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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Wow! I want one! Seriously, what a beautiful and utilitarian design. Great work, you are very talented Alami!
mavrothis
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
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 . That's a beautiful design.
If I may think outside the box for a second, one could make this into a solid mold by carving the shape out, and then casting a fiber carbon or
synthetic material similar to it around it. Or even plying blcoks of wood then carving the shape, and then using veneers to get the striping effect.
Anyway, it's fun to think about the possiblities...
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Wow, thanks guys, you can't imagine how good it feels to read your comments in the morning.
When attempting such a radical design, one cannot expect reactions, I was expecting something like "what an ugly mutant alien !" (and it is normal if
many think so), but at least I know that I am not the only one who finds these curves intriguing and beautiful.
Hey zalzal, it is not an extended fingerboard, it is a retracted bowl  . No
seriously, the fingerboard is part of the structure in this design, it is not a bowl with a neck, it is more integrated as the the ribs ends should
hide under the fingerboard.
Leon, can you please explain "braced to curve the top", I am unfamiliar with this technique, I agree that bracing should be minimal, I've already
tried (on paper) a way of starting with regular braces as on a normal face then by introducing the same general asymmetry ratio, it would result in 5
diagonal braces.
Mav thanks for your kind words, coming from a great musician with a great oud collection such as yours it is a huge encouragement (you'll get
yours)
Now I am very excited to go to the construction stage, I am anxious to hear Jameel talking about not having the gut (but having seen his work I don't
really believe him).
As Jameel says, the mould itself would be a challenge and Peyman ideas are great (please keep having fun).. I am thinking of 2 possibilities: the
first is to extract the data from the 3D model and start by making a perfect virtual mould, when done it can be breaked down as a regular 2d cutting
blueprint for each "arch" of the mould (how do we call them?) as well as the base to support them and the markings of each rib position with a side
top and front view for each arch.
This will allow to produce an accurate mould. add to this that I can also "unbend" the ribs from the end design and extract an exact planar outline of
each rib before bending which I think would help the maker a lot as there are 21 different shapes of ribs and only the first and last one end with a
point on both sides like a normal oud ribs.
The second possibilty is the one suggested by Peyman, I'll add to it an easier start:instead of a manual carving, the bowl can be prototyped directly
from the 3D file into a plycarbonte real size smooth surface object, there are many service bureaus providing this type of prototyping. So my question
is, if we have this accurate prototype, where can we go from there and what would be the next steps ?
Are we talking of an ovation-style composite material bowl ? how would it sound ? I think that I read on these forums that Dr oud tried something like
this and the result was not really convincing.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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An interesting design!
Construction of a moulded bowl from plastic composites might not be as quick and straight forward as might be imagined. I have made lute bowls in the
past from thin fibreglass reinforced with carbon fibre strands moulded along the 'rib joints' (and using expanding foam neck filler). Nevertheless
these bowls were still relatively heavy compared to bowls made from wood in the traditional manner and I was not too happy about the response of the
completed instruments. Whether or not this was due to the fibreglass bowl or my inexperience as a luthier I do not know. I did not continue with these
experiments anyway as I hated working with fibreglass.
To make these bowls, I first made a replica bowl in plaster of paris. This was polished to a gloss finish and coated with a release wax. This was then
coated with a gel coat layer followed by a number of layers of glass cloth and resin to make a rigid master mold.
The bowl was then made from the mold by first coating the inside with release wax, followed by a thin gel coat, followed by a single layer of woven
glass cloth and resin with strips of carbon fibre worked into the resin along the 'rib joints'. All pretty time consuming and best for production runs
of identical instruments.
Papier mache might be an alternative material to fibreglass or even a thermoplastic like sheet acrylic - heated in an oven until soft and then
stretched over a wooden mold using vacuum pressure to pull the plastic in close contact with the mold surface until the plastic rehardens.
I think that the bowl could be built up from wooden ribs in the traditional way although it would not be easy and likely almost impossible to to make
with sufficient precision to conform exactly to the theoretical geometry. I am sure that Jameel would be up to the challenge - that is if he has no
other projects that take priority!
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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I thought I had seen that shape in an instrument before! Here is an Arch Cittern, late 18th C made by Renault, Paris.
Not exactly the correct profile and it is 'flat' backed so a lot easier to build than the oud will be.
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
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I also was thinking in the lines of using automated machinery to build the oud. But what about the cost!
I think you should take a look at this website:
http://www.beyondthetrees.com/gallery.html
This luthier has used the papier mache jdowning is refering to, to make instrument bowls.
There is also the possiblity of making half of it the traditional way and half of it using a different method, either carving or casting.
I forgot, The rosette looks awsome too!
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Location: Ontario, Canada
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I have not been following all of the details of the mathematical analysis of this project. I assume, however, that a mirror image of the layout
posted is also an alternative possibility? This might have some practical advantage for the majority of players who are "right handed" given that the
'cantilevered' fingerboard or 'hollowed out neck' design might allow a somewhat better access to the higher fingerboard positions and make the
instrument a bit more convenient to hold?
As for barring, my hunch would be that a single bar just below the rose might be all that is required?
Another 'asymmetrical' thought is that the bridge might be set at an angle so that the bass strings are longer than the treble - to improve bass
response (but make things more difficult for the player of an unfretted instrument). This geometry can be found on Western historical instruments
like the Bandora. Not sure if this is allowable within the mathematical constraints of this project, however. Just throwing out ideas!
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abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by jdowning
I have not been following all of the details of the mathematical analysis of this project. I assume, however, that a mirror image of the layout
posted is also an alternative possibility? This might have some practical advantage for the majority of players who are "right handed" given that the
'cantilevered' fingerboard or 'hollowed out neck' design might allow a somewhat better access to the higher fingerboard positions and make the
instrument a bit more convenient to hold? |
I don't understand why you would want to reverse the profile for a right-handed player. The cut away on a right-handed guitar is in the same position
as in Alami's illustration, as too on the cittern that you showed, that being on the bottom of the instrument as held by a right-handed player.
David
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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I don't know about modern instruments but all of the early citterns that I have seen have the cut away in the neck, (underneath the fingerboard), on
the bass string side of the instrument - that is on the top side of the instrument as held by a right handed player. The arch cittern is no exception
to this - the cut away being on the bass string side of the instrument. On ALAMI's oud the cut away below the fingerboard is currently opposite to
this i.e. on the treble string side.
It seemed to me that the 'reversed profile' alternative might be easier and more convenient to hold for a right handed player - the bottom part of the
bowl that rests on the legs being pretty much the shape of a conventional oud. This was just a bit of lateral thinking on my part as I can see no
particular reason for the profile not to be the mirror image of the geometry given by ALAMI.
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
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Having the shorter side of the bowl on lower side of the oud (closer to the ground for a right-handed player) would make it easier to play up the neck
as noted by Leon and David, I think it is a practical advantage (for the sound I don't know)
Jameel you were absolutely right for the mould: it is very challenging. I am working on it (virtually), I put 8 blocks plus the tail and neck blocks,
I know it is way more than usual but I think it would make the luthier work easier and more precise as he has to bend and glue 21 different ribs.
I think that the role of the designer is not just a concept, he has to go into the smallest manufacturing details and verify that they can be
realisticaly done and deliver detailed plans and prints for each part and aspect of the design.
Now I am working an the individual plans of each part of the mould (it looks like an animal), I will be able to have 1:1 papers to glue on the raw
mould wood blocks indicating the curve to cut and the curve to taper it, this includes also the markers of the ribs on each block (the thin black
lines).
Now I am realzing that I have to design a new neck block to make gluing the ribs easier, I am thinking of 2 options as the neckblock will grow
bigger:
Using a hollowed blockneck to reduce the weight, or carving the neck and the block from one single continuous piece (still with hallowing the block),
a neck and neck block carved from the same piece will never need setting, right? has it been done or tried ?
Working on this project made me realize that the oud is not a simple instrument as it looks, somehow I have a greater admiration now for the fine work
of luthiers.
I don't know if it is common that a luthier works on somebody else's design (other than replicas ) and if they do, how would they like to receive the
design ? Who's oud it is it going to be at the end ? What should be written on the label? I really would like to hear your thoughts on this subject.
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
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Location: Portsmouth, UK
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braces
Hi Alami
Sorry not to reply - I've been away. Many 'flat top' acoustic guitars and I am sure a number of ouds have a slight upward curve or doming of the
sound board so the centre of the soundboard is 5 to 10mm higher than at the rim of the sides (if viewed as a side elevation). This is made possible
by shaving the braces so they curve (instead of being flat) making them thinner at either end. The sound board is then glued with the braces to form
a slight upward bowl.
This does a number of things, mainly it strengthens the soundboard and gives it a kind of springyness that can make for a very bright and resonant
sound (if done with skill, otherwise the top becomes stressed and dampened!!). It also allows the luthier to reduce the thickness of the braces and
the overall weight of the instrument.
I don't have practical hands-on experience of this but am considering making a guitar so I have read (an looked and measured) quite widely on this and
it makes sense. I think others have mentioned this in other threads here - I'd be interested in their knowledge.
I love this project Alami - put me down for one aswell  hehehehe.
Best wishes
Leon
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