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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Thanks Sazi for the interesting board, and Tony for the scientific one 
This is the oud I use :
http://www.oudsukar.com/products/8_ar.htm
The only thing I know is the wood : walnut tree and I can't say which one (to Sazi). I already try to send an e-mail to Ibrahim Sukar for some advices
but dead letter... If anybody has better infos about his product, your welcome. It helps to know the machine you use !
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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David.B, what Sazi refers to as domestic walnut should be more or less what you have, with a medium level of hardness. The other, very hard species
listed are actually not related to true walnut (Juglans spp). However, I think there is a little difference between the hardness of American Black
walnut (Juglans nigra) and the Eurasian variety (Juglans regia). If it's sukar it's probably the eurasian variety, though I don't think the difference
in hardness is huge.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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You know your fingerboard needs sanding/leveling when the tracks are deep enough so a train pulls up at Rast and people line up with tickets for Neva.
A lot of older ouds have trenches like during World War I. No, seriously, it's when the ruts interfere with playing. David's was sanded twice in 8
years? My approach is to never let the ruts develop in the first place, let a coating absorb the damage. For the ebony, play for a while and watch it.
If, after a couple months, you see even the kind of "snakeskin trace" appear as in my photograph, I would coat it. The coating adds sustain and
brightness, but obviously not if your fingerboard is already very hard. Brazilian Walnut is not really walnut. The ordinary walnuts are all about the
same: medium.
Coating the first time with Tung Oil does take the oud out of service for 2-4 days, as you have to put on several coats and the initial coats take
like 24+ hours to set hard. You want 4-5+ coats, the first one soaks in like an oil, then you keep painting it on like wall paint and it sets like a
urethane. Fortunately the final coats seem to be catalyzed by the first, so they set faster. Then lightly sand to "perfect" aircraft-carrier flatness
with a little board. Touch-ups can be just wiped on, when you change strings, or if necessary, sooner. Do not play it while "sticky", it's the
strangest substance, nothing seems to dissolve it, and I think if you inject it, it will turn a mammal into an Egyptian mummy that walks in the
moonlight.
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DaveH
Oud Junkie
Posts: 526
Registered: 12-23-2005
Location: Birmingham, UK
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Correction
Sorry, this is off topic a bit and probably more detail than anyone needed to know, but it nagged me.
Quick correction to my previous post, which I wrote referring to my "Illustrated encyclopedia of trees of the world" - a fascinating book but
evidently not fully comprehensive.
Common names can be confusing, especially with reference to obviously visible traits like large nuts, as anything bearing a similar sized nut can end
up with the same name, even though it's unrelated.
It turns out that a "Brazilian Walnut" in the Juglans genus (J. brasiliensis) does exist, contrary to what I wrote, but the Brazilian Walnut referred
to on the wikipedia link on JANKA hardness is Ipe, which is unrelated. The Wikipedia page also refers to a Bolivian/Peruvian walnut with a similar
hardness to Black Walnut. This is probably the Juglans member J. boliviana.
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dighom
Oud Admirer
Posts: 4
Registered: 3-12-2010
Location: Freiburg, Germany
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Mood: microtonal
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Interesting - in two ways. I'm also a fretless bass player. 
I got a turkish oud as a birthday gift from my parents almost 20 years ago. It took a long time to figure out how to tune and play it. (There was no
source like the internet in those days)
It's a very cheap instrument I guess, made for tourists probably, but it had a sound, that caught my heart immediately every time I played it.
In lack of money to buy a better one I decided to coat the fretboard a few years ago, because I had a little amount of polyurethane resin left from
making my own pickups for the fretless bass.
The board looked like a road laced with chuckholes and some notes really didn't sound well.
So I sanded down the board of the oud as far as possible - not much, because I soon recognized, that the wood isn't originally dark but was dyed or
just a very thin piece of veneer.
Then I isolated the borders with some tape and applied 3 or 4 relatively thick coatings of the resin, each one after the preceding was dry.
Stripped of the tape and sanded and polished again. I have to say once more, that there were really deep holes on the board, so the resin did not only
coat, but levelled out the whole thing.
Then I bought a set of good Aquila Nylguts...
Man, this was a surprise!
My oud really sounds good know.
A few days ago I visited an oud player from Iraq, who lives nearby, and he said, that my oud is a very good sounding student model, even the
construction and the woods aren't of high quality. (Let's say: Simply bad...  )
I can't play very good, but I will upload some soundfiles in the future.
Of course I still wish I could buy a better oud, but even this "not so good" instrument makes my heart wide open, when I play it and lets my soul fly,
where no other instrument can get me. It's like a deep meditation, an instant generator of feeling grateful, delighted, peaceful and free.
Thank you all for making this forum possible and for all the helpful information.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Quote: Originally posted by dighom  | ...makes my heart wide open, when I play it and lets my soul fly, where no other instrument can get me. It's like a deep meditation, an instant
generator of feeling grateful, delighted, peaceful and free.
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Well put, I couldn't have put it better myself!
I think this is why we are all here...
All the best with your oud journey.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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So happy for you that you figured out how to make the best of it. I believe that all the emotion you put into it is also important, not clear exactly
how it works, but it seems the more you play an oud and the more heart you put into it, the better it sounds.
It doesn't look like a bad oud anyway. Most Middle Eastern ouds are more "earthy" than glitzy Japanese production line guitars. Let's face it, the
tools in common use are simple, as you can see in these shots from Egypt.
People I think often attach too much importance to a fine finish. A beautifully finished oud IS surely a beautiful thing, but it's not necessarily
going to sound and play better for all that detailing. You could spend a lot more money, and how it sounds and feels might still be a toss of the die.
Try to play some other ouds and you might decide you like yours all the more!
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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I am convinced!! 
But, Fernand, do you use pure tung oil or polymerized tung oil?
And can you please give me a link where to by it (on internett)?
p.s. NO one seems to have heard of it in Norway!!!!!!!!!
Thanks a lot
P.S. I totally agree that expensive, well finished ouds NEED NOT be better.. but lets face it, they are better IN GENERAL!
But if you are handy, and KNOW what to do (to the pegs, the fingerboard, the nut choose the right strings) then your oud BECOMES much better!! That
is, you can do the finishings yourself.
Have a nice day
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I had originally wasted a lot of time describing some of the very complex internals. It's very confusing, largely because manufacturers promote
nonsense like "nourishing the wood". The wood of course is DEAD and needs no "nourishing". And as to "Natural" finishes, nothing is more "Natural"
than Hemlock and Death.
Bottom line: Tung Oil is probably best used in a mix like Formby's that includes catalysts and resins, because it sets hard and quickly (overnight).
Several layers can be wiped on in a couple of days. The closer you get to pure Tung Oil the longer it takes to set and the more difficult it is to
produce a thick protective layer. Jasco has more Tung oil and takes longer (days) to set, you have to add some Japan Drier as a catalyst. I don't know
what people do with "pure Tung Oil", be it partly polymerized or not.
http://www.amazon.com/Minwax-30064-Formbys-Tung-Finish/dp/B000BZZ4Z...
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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As to well-finished ouds, we all know that a very carefully made and beautifully finished instrument is a marvel. But. If your first instrument
requires some work, it's the best way to understand it.
Ouds that are decent student ouds need love and care, and they will reward their owners if they are touched up, and played a lot, with respect. People
who look askance at little finishing flaws will not develop the heart to play well anyway.
A perfectly finished oud might or might not be a great-sounding oud that plays well.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Thanks for the reply Fernand!
You are a tresoire to this Forum
One last question:
Should I get High gloss or Low gloss (have no idea what the differance is!?)
P.s. The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive
 
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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I should try before I write but I'm always running out of time and when I have some I prefer to play... I guess I'm not the only one in the same case 
So, a too long sustain do not handicap you when you play Tony ? I mean, when I play and rest on a karar for example, I use to wait until the sound
dies before I keep going on the taksim. With a loooooong sustain this way of playing must be out of the question, isn't it ?
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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On sustain .... We're not talking about 30 seconds of decay vs. 3 seconds. It's just a noticeably longer sustain, not enough to create new issues.
My Egyptian had a short decay, very typical of Egyptian ouds, I think, and of how people play them. Coating the neck lightly made it systain a little
better. I like it not being TOO long, it's an Egyptian, and it sounds good that way.
My Sukar Model 1 started out with a little longer sustain than that, then I changed strings, and it became longer, as Syrians and Iraqis usually sound
and are usually played (the floating bridges being a separate issue). The medium wood of the Sukar Model 1 fingerboard limits the sustain. A very
hard wood like a high grade ebony would provide more systain. Coating with a medium hard polymer like a Tung Oil finish sounds much like a very hard
wood. Coating on that Sukar was applied thicker and sounded more dramatic than on the Egyptian. On a Sukar it sounds "in its place" and I like it a
lot.
But you can extend the sustain even by fingering with your fingernails, the way Armenians do. You can control how long notes will ring (to some
degree) by what part of the fingertip you "fret" with and how hard you press. It's easier to shorten the sustain on a note now and then than to try to
make an instrument sustain when it just doesn't want to. And it's all a long way still from something like the metal fingerboard of a Sarod.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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On the Formby's I used the high gloss. That's what I purchased and it was a fast setting product that was reasonably hard and worked OK. But I hope
you understand that we're in very murky waters, right? That what is called "Tung Oil" is a mix and that to really know what brand contains how much
resins and how much polyurethane and how much boiled Tung Oil and how much boiled Linseed oil, and how much Japan Drier and so on --- is beyond our
capabilities. Maybe the Formby's "low gloss" would have more Tung oil and would set slower but be harder? I don't know. I was to call them but was
briefly in hospital. Will try to quiz them tomorrow.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Thanks a lot, Fernand!
Yes, this is a difficult topic for me. And I read all your posts
I'll try the high gloss then. I don't want to take risks. And it is good that it satles faster.
I am NOT expecting miracles (the difference in sustain on your mp3 is not that big anyway).
Anyway, I am interrrested in protecting the board, not the sustain (i think there is enough sustain on the Sukar)
But the paint (shellack?) on Sukar fingerboard gets ripped fast. So I am thinking of wiping it away (alchool. What kind?)
and putting tung oil instead.
I'll try it on my favorit baby (the only Sukar model1 that I still have). If it goes well, Iam thinking of doing it on the rest of my ouds (both
eboney and rosewood finger board).
I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks again and get well!
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Yes that varnish on the fingerboards just gets in the way. Plain grain alcohol (ethanol) will dissolve some types and acetone will dissolve others.
Try which one works best on yours. Just be careful not to get it all over, like the back of the neck. Then wipe it off, sand lightly and apply masking
tape the way Dighom did too, so you can work comfortably and start with a penetrating layer, let it set maybe overnight, then keep adding layers, with
brush or rag, you can speed up setting with very bright light, and in about 3 days you should be up to 5 or so. You'll get a feel for what your
particular stuff does. Sand the top layer to an eggshell surface. The fingerboard should be "plasticized", quite a different surface from the rather
soft raw wood. Of course it will sustain better, and you can keep adding layers if you want more. Just make sure it's set nice and hard before
stringing/playing. Whenever changing strings or doing any maintenance, brush on some more and even out any wear, then lightly sand or steel wool. It
seems touch-up layers set faster.
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | | Yes that varnish on the fingerboards just gets in the way. Plain grain alcohol (ethanol) will dissolve some types and acetone will dissolve others.
Try which one works best on yours. Just be careful not to get it all over, like the back of the neck. Then wipe it off, sand lightly and apply masking
tape the way Dighom did too, so you can work comfortably and start with a penetrating layer, let it set maybe overnight, then keep adding layers, with
brush or rag, you can speed up setting with very bright light, and in about 3 days you should be up to 5 or so. You'll get a feel for what your
particular stuff does. Sand the top layer to an eggshell surface. The fingerboard should be "plasticized", quite a different surface from the rather
soft raw wood. Of course it will sustain better, and you can keep adding layers if you want more. Just make sure it's set nice and hard before
stringing/playing. Whenever changing strings or doing any maintenance, brush on some more and even out any wear, then lightly sand or steel wool. It
seems touch-up layers set faster. |
Ah! This is a wanderful compleat description of what to do! THANKS A LOT
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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Ok, I just spoke to the labs where they formulate this Formby's "finish". They were reasonably cooperative, but this is a complex area in which I
don't know how best to formulate the questions. Every nook you peek into requires learning more! They will be faxing me some materials safety sheets
that might reveal some other details. Here is what I learned so far.
The solution is primarily (~ 78%) hydrocarbons (that will evaporate and help the solution penetrate the wood). The rest is an "oil alkyd varnish"
consisting mainly of Tung and Soybean oils. Zero polyurethane. That's as far as they were willing to go, as it's a proprietary formula. I asked if the
finish sets primarily by polymerization or by evaporation, and he said definitely polymerization. None of this is at odds with what I knew or
expected. After the hydrocarbons evaporate, the deposited oil blend continues to polymerize (harden).
As Wikipedia says: Typically, modern commercially produced varnishes employ some form of alkyd for producing a protective
film. Alkyds are chemically modified vegetable oils ....
If you look up Alkyd and then Polyester you find that these can be made with Tung oil, it is not that they are foreign and evil synthetics, it's a
complex chemistry where all these things meet.
My results with Formby's on fingerboards, whatever it consists of, were decent, and probably should work for you too. If you try another "polymerized
tung oil" it too must be thinned with hydrocarbons and optimized with additives. Those that contain the most Tung oil seem to take the longest time to
set, and a thick film will tend to stay gummy/soft. So if you add all of this up, and try to make, on your own, a better "finish" that WILL easily
give you a hard protective film, you probably end up making something much like Formby's. I believe that the parading, by some manufacturers, of
verbiage like "pure and natural Tung Oil" is just a marketing ploy, because you can't finish wood with pure Tung Oil even if you tried. Alles klaar,
herr kommissar?
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Wow! If you were taking a shot at norwegian, you aimed good enough Not bad Herr
Fernand 
I don't think I am going to be making my own Fomby mix! I am too bad at these things. I am just trying to buy the thing.
But I cannot find anybody on the nett the sends the dam thng outside the states!!!!!!!!! I find that very strange.
And can't find it in Nowray (NO ONE HAVE HEARD OF IT!!)
HELP
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Mood: Renaissance
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | | On sustain .... We're not talking about 30 seconds of decay vs. 3 seconds. It's just a noticeably longer sustain, not enough to create new issues.
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Thanks for your answer Tony, I had in my mind your "Consolation in Nihawand" with very long pauses between notes. What I play is a mix between long
pauses and quick phrases, sometimes there's a conflict between notes because of the sympathetic phenomena, but as you wrote I compensate without
thinking with my fingers on the fingerboard.
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Mood: Renaissance
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| Quote: Originally posted by Luttgutt | I don't think I am going to be making my own Fomby mix! I am too bad at these things. I am just trying to buy the thing.
But I cannot find anybody on the nett the sends the dam thng outside the states!!!!!!!!! I find that very strange.
And can't find it in Nowray (NO ONE HAVE HEARD OF IT!!)
HELP |
Hi Luttgutt,
I read somewhere you go to Paris, if it's the case check out these addresses :
http://www.laverdure.fr/_nous-contacter.php
http://www.hmb-bda.fr/
I have these addresses for a while now, since the beginning of this thread, and I'm not motivate enough to take time to go there... We could go
together ?!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I think, it's agood idea to experiment first with separate pieces of wood, before touching the oud itself.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
Posts: 578
Registered: 1-10-2009
Location: Norway
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Mood: Curious
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Thanks! and good idea.
I'll check when I have time during the day.
Are those shops somewhere in the center?
what is the name of the polymerized tung oil in frensh?
I checked the adresses. I found "huile de lin" etc. :-)
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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David.B
Oud Junkie
Posts: 640
Registered: 9-5-2009
Location: France
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Yes both are situated in the 12e arrondissement.
"polymerized tung oil" = huile de Tung polymérisée
I should give a call first, it's easier for me... I'll give you some feedback this week.
Yes Chris, I'm going to experiment first and my Sukar mod. 1 has nothing to loose (the fingerboard is too used and this model is too cheap for a brand
new one...).
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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I think it's not the price that counts, but how much you like the oud ... be it because of it's sound or because it was your first oud?
If you like it enough, it's definitly worth it to let a luthier exchange the fingerboard, don't you think so?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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