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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Chris, I don't think they are $35 a SET, where do you see the word "set" or "four"? I'm pretty sure they are $35 EACH. I just called a local luthier.
They said they can get them at discount, only $25 EACH, and they quoted me a price of $600 total with labor for installing 12 gotoh pegs, they said
it's more work installing them than ordinary pegs. They graciously would only charge me $300 total with labor for putting on 12 standard Viola pegs.
 THAT's a big reason we all live with our peggy problems, which in per$pective
are not so serious.
The alternative is to (ever so gradually) allow the thought that perhaps you would prefer machine-smoothed pegs that MIGHT work smoother? But then you
have to hypothesize that the 16:1 taper that is more or less standard on lutes and ouds, is the product of Neanderthal ignorance, and what you need is
25:1 or 30:1 taper, because that's the ONLY taper that you can get very nice wood viola pegs in, lovely machined shiny pegs that you can buy in ebony
or rosewood or tigerwood or whatever, and (irreversibly) ream out the pegbox holes with the $50 25:1 or 30:1 reamer you buy, and install them. But
then again, maybe there's a reason the Neanderthals use 16:1 taper, and then you would have to shave your viola pegs to such a taper, but it's not
easy finding such a shaver (that you can afford), and I refer you to the archives of Mike's Ouds for the obituaries and insane-asylum commitment
papers for oud players who have gone down this path, including such activities as designing peg shavers (and reamers) that can adapt to an unknown
taper by copying that of an existing peg ... but then ... do I DARE enlarge those holes ... ssshht! I hear THEM coming, they are bringing my
injection, and I must keep quiet!
Yours truly,
patient-in-chains Fernand Raynaud.
p.s. I LIKE my moody woody oudy pegs, tra la la .. 
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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Here you go, it is 34.10 per set of four:
http://ssl.bfit.jp/~jby/product_info.php?cPath=55&products_id=170&osCsid=0c26de88e226885842ff017f5346c678
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Good morning,
maybe let's try to find out more about my potential dream oud ... what kind should it be?
I'm totally fascinated by the sound of Mehdi Haddab's oud in THIS Taksim, so my "dream oud" should sound similar. Ok, there's a lot of reverb mixed in, but one thing is a fact, I should buy an arabic oud.
What do you think? What kind of oud does Mehdi use HERE ... I bet it's the same as in his Taksim. Is it an Egyptian oud? Too bad, that most artists don't mention on their website, what "brand" they
play, like many guitarists and drummer do.
| Quote: | | -fixed bridge or floating bridge ? |
For dampening the strings sometimes while picking, the floating bridge seems theoretically preferable, but I need to test that out ... not easy in
Germany.
What downsides and advantages do YOU see in both bridge concepts?
| Quote: | | -which string length? 58,5, 60 or 61,5 cm ? |
I don't know ... which downsides/advantages should I expect here? I read somewhere, that it's easier to play fast on shorter strings.
I think 11, because that's similar to my 12-string guitar and most string sets seem to be 11. So I see more options for string choice for 11-sets ...
or am I wrong?
| Quote: | | -classical or extended fingerboard? |
Definitly extended ... when this means, if it ends at the soundboard or goes down to the soundhole.
| Quote: | | -which woods will give me the sound I like? |
I don't know, but I would really like an ebony fingerboard. Do you have any links in mind, which explain the wood differences?
| Quote: | | I saw for instance, in France, two Sukar ouds (which are good quality instruments from Aleppo) in new condition for less than 200 euros, during last
month. |
A used Sukar for 200€ ? I think, that were entry level Sukars, that cost about 400$ new?
Hehe ... I like your humor, Fernand.
I think so too, they write "4pcs/set". And HERE we see a different brand, which I found discussed in a violin forum and they are also sold in a set of 4.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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I'm really not sure now, I see the 4 per set, but the quantity is 1, so it's confusing, and categorically two luthiers now have told me a set of 4
geared pegs costs > $100. I think maybe there's another explanation. I was asking the luthiers about PLANETARY GEARED PEGS, i.e. like Pegheads.
Maybe these Gotohs are NOT geared, maybe they are just aluminum pegs that you can tighten with a torque adjustment wrench? Not sure that's good
enough, but maybe.
The next step is trying to contact this outfit in tokyo, and I have written them, I hope to have a reply soon.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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That might mean 4 pegs in one set or it might mean the 4 pieces we see on the small photo.
| Quote: | | Maybe these Gotohs are NOT geared, ... |
In the violin forum they wrote, that both Gotoh and Perfection Pegs are geared and come in sets of 4 pegs.
Good to know, that you requested detailed information from the shop ... so we soon will have a precise info 
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi again,
now I know how to get an oud in Germany ... see HERE ... but where do I get these strings?
Sorry, if you already know this.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Chris,
I hate to tell you this, but in both your clips I see Mehdi Heddab playing more a Turkish than Arabic oud. You know, it's not a simple either/or
categorical thing, more and more the designs have merged, but his ouds have 1) the classical Turkish 3 hole design 2) the smaller size 3) the brighter
tone.
A more typical Arabic sound would be earthier and with less high ringing, but with a sort of echoing bottom, more like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T1eVrsDZKw
I LOVE that Arabic sound. You CAN tune a Turkish down, dress it up in baggy pants and a fez, but it will still not quite sound Arabic.
Floating bridge (Iraqi = "Bashir") ouds almost invariably sound very bright, often even brighter than Turkish ouds. This is a very typical sound:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8bJ-3iim3w
13 string sets can be hard to find except as expensive custom sets, but a Daniel Mari Turkish set + the ff strings costs $9 + maybe $1.50 shipping to
Germany, so I think that's a perfect set, as you can use it for 9, 10, 11, 12 or 13 string, Turkish or Arabic. Because of tuning vs. scale, Turkish
and Arabic strings are the same thing, it's much better to think in terms of gauge.
http://www.ostriemusicsupplies.com/oud-strings.htm
Different woods? Ebony is hard and heavy, good for fingerboard, but it's not clear if it's ideal for other parts. Some say that cheaper ouds use
softer wood and so don't sound as clear. Others say that too hard a wood on the bowl makes it sound too harsh. I don't know. Soundboards are another
specialty item.
BTW, Sukars all have a common design producing a powerful sound with strong bass and can be made as bright as you want as well. The cheapest ones are
still excellent, that's what I'd get if I were you. The only flaws I've found in my Model 1 Sukar are normal issues - e.g. if I can get planetary pegs
for $100 for 12, my Sukar may get a set for Christmas.
And here is a difficult truth: you should try some instruments in person, but still a lot of the sound quality of an oud cannot be reliably predicted
even from playing it the first time, as it seriously changes as it matures. I have an Egyptian I got that I wanted to try out. The sound was only OK,
so I was just about to return it, when it started sounding better and better and better. Now I REALLY like it, and wouldn't DREAM of giving it up.
So many disciplines meet to make a musical instrument. I wish you success in learning EVERYTHING.
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Hey Chris, here on my youtube page http://www.youtube.com/user/Sazi369 are a couple of playlists, one of fixed bridge ouds and one of floating bridge (Bashir style) ouds, (more
vid's as they are my personal preference) As you will hear if you just pick a few different players, there is a huge variety of tone, resonance and
response in both types of oud. There's not much Turkish Ud on there, but here is a clip with a beautiful rich deep sounding Turkish oud made by
Ramazan Calay, (his short fingerboard ouds are around 1000 euro) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QMq6Q36FAU
Hope this helps... Cheers, S
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi again!
Mmh, though this is possible, I can't believe it ... does his Taksim really sound like a turkish oud with arabic tuning? Mmh, but when I compare with Sazi's Turkish example ... maybe you're right. But in this
video the oud's corpus seems to be noticably larger than on most Turkish ouds, don't you think so?
| Quote: | | ..., more and more the designs have merged, but his ouds have 1) the classical Turkish 3 hole design ... |
Most Egyptian ouds seem to have the same 3-hole design, don't they?
| Quote: | | 2) the smaller size |
Mmh, I think his acoustic oud looks bigger than a turkish one, doesn't it? But again ... the size in Sazi's example is similar.
| Quote: | | I LOVE that Arabic sound. |
Me too ... maybe because we both play(ed) bass too?
| Quote: | | Floating bridge (Iraqi = "Bashir") ouds almost invariably sound very bright, often even brighter than Turkish ouds. |
Yes and no ... Sazi's video collection is helpful here ... there are huge differences. Some have a deep bassy sound and others even sound similar to
a flamenco guitar, like THIS one ... I think, that's what you mean with "brighter as Turkish ouds"?
| Quote: | | Ebony is hard and heavy, good for fingerboard, ... |
I think this is, why ebony fingerboards became standard on classic strings (violin, etc.). I wonder, why it didn't become standard on ouds.
| Quote: | | The cheapest ones are still excellent, that's what I'd get if I were you. |
His Model 1 seems to be a popular beginner model or am I wrong? Do you have priceing information and know if they deliver to Europe? I read very
different info about this.
| Quote: | | ..., as it seriously changes as it matures. |
I have the impression, that ouds and violins have something in common here ... many players seem to prefer "oldtimers" 
Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  | | As you will hear if you just pick a few different players, there is a huge variety of tone, resonance and response in both types of oud.
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Yes, for shure and that leads me to the conclusion, that the most important factors (though not only) for the oud's sound characteristics are the size
of the corpus, the soundhole concept (size, open or with ornaments) and the used strings.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Yes, for shure and that leads me to the conclusion, that the most important factors (though not only) for the oud's sound characteristics are the size
of the corpus, the soundhole concept (size, open or with ornaments) and the used strings. |
Hmm, it could be a little more complicated than that... here is a clip from one of our forum members, trying out three Arabic ouds, all from the same
maker, but with bowls of different timbers, and as you will hear, there is quite a difference. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcojIpzy5vY
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Yes, for shure ... there are much more sound influencing factors, but the above mentioned seem to be very important.
| Quote: | | here is a clip from one of our forum members, trying out three Arabic ouds, all from the same maker, ... |
Very interesting, though we should keep in mind, that MP3s cut all overtones above 16 KHz (or even lower, depending on the bitrate), which makes the
comparison of sound characteristics a bit difficult. With most videos it's even worse. We can hear a difference though. But I bet, the two guys in
this video heard a greater difference, than we can in this video.
What I find interesting is, that it seems, that the shape difference of the soundhole between the first two ouds seem to play an important role and
that the third one uses different strings/tuning (?).
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
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I believe Mehdi's oud is from Morocco and is possibly made by Bin Harbeet.
but it shouldnt be too hard to drop him an email and ask what is the maker of his instrument.
Aymara, I also agree that it is much better to get properly fitted pegs then to get those geared pegs. It seems like you may have never tuned a oud
before and you are already seeking to get those geared pegs...
You should know that many times the peg isnt always the problem when tuning a oud... often times the nut is not correctly grooved and you will find
the strings will catch.
Wooden pegs when properly fitted are excellent and also, when your taste for fine ouds will develop in time (and that is inevitable just ask people around here) you will find it very hard to tune it. Think about it if
some one hands you a nahat or a manol to try one day and you are lost when it comes to tuning it.
I like to make the analogy with cars. some are automatic and some are manual. but as you will agree the finest ones are almost always manual. Imagine
your friend just bought a new porche and hands you the keys. You will probably be exited but if you cant drive stick your SOL...
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Chris, I can understand your desire to "get a picture". But you should get your hands on some ouds. I think the relationship between materials, shape,
holes, etc etc is far far more complex and unpredictable than you think. You have that shop in Mannheim, we don't even have such a shop in all of
Northern Calif, and I doubt they have one in Southern Calif , so take a nice train ride and go touch some wood.
You can't have any idea looking at pictures. One unexpected discovery will be how crudely most ouds are made. Look VERY carefully at MOST of the
pictures of ouds on USA e-bay. It's like they don't believe in rulers and metal triangles. AND YET most of those are playable and not that bad, the
snobs will tell you you have to spend $1500 or more, but do you think most Syrian or Egyptian professional musicians, I mean the guys who play in
cafes and stuff, do you think they will usually spend more than $1500 on an oud? I don't think so. You have to digest that in context or you will be
unhappy with what could be a very nice oud. And look at the tools they use. You have to separate what is cosmetic from what is functional. It's like
the kid who keeps complaining about what his dad got him. He doesn't understand these issues yet.
Turkish ouds are not ukuleles, they are only a little bit smaller than Arabic, and there are many intermediate styles. Still, Mehdi's oud on those 2
clips sound typically Turkish to me. That's a very good sound, it's just that I prefer the Arabic fixed bridge sound. I'm not crazy about floating
bridge ouds, they DO sound like Flamenco guitars with tight strings.
It's true that wood pegs are part of the experience, and that you're not likely to improve a 5000 year old design overnight, it's kind of silly to
start out wanting to change it, without first knowing the original very well. For example, ebony is not the standard peg material on ouds, you ask why
not, and if you really dig in the subject it turns out that ebony is so hard and abrasive that it will rapidly enlarge the hole in the pegbox, which
is why violins are constantly in need of pegbox repairs.
If you want to just ORDER one, when all is said and done, it seems that unless you just get lucky, there is no better
deal on an oud than a Sukar. In the US anyway, the rational choice on a first oud is a Model 1 Sukar. It is cosmetically not very elaborate, but you
can decorate it as fancy as you want, maybe like Mehdi's electric ;-) The most important things are the design is reliable, all Sukars are good, the
neck/action can be adjusted and it sounds and plays great. It has what we might call a "strong bright Arabic sound". Palmyrami sells them for under
$400 with a hard case. The reason they are so good is because Sukar's got the design perfected to where they are predictable. We have no recent
experience in this group with European delivery by Palmyrami, but in the US they have been OK of late.
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Marcus
Oud Junkie
Posts: 446
Registered: 11-26-2008
Location: Stuttgart/ South Germany
Member Is Offline
Mood: Lost in music
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Hi Chris 
| Quote: |
And which one do you prefer? Or does that change from time to time? |
Yes, it changes lots of times.Sometimes I swop a few times within 1-2 hours,than I play one for weeks.
Bevore I bought the arabic one it was a lot of tuning up and down,a bit stressy,but................I`m very used to wooden pegs now,no need at all to
attach mechanical pegs!!
Playing the oud is like feeding my soul with peace
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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That's the spirit! After all, they are each unique,....
Hey Chris, this is what's known as an advanced case of "ouditis" Be afraid!
you'll get it too, just like the rest of us here!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi again!
Interesting hint.
| Quote: | | It seems like you may have never tuned a oud before and you are already seeking to get those geared pegs... |
No, I never tuned an oud, only the old violin of my uncle ... and that was a pain. So after reading, that many cheaper ouds have tuning problems, I
searched info about alternatives ... just for the case of the cases.
But I hope to find a nice oud, maybe used, without running into tuning trouble.
| Quote: | | ... often times the nut is not correctly grooved and you will find the strings will catch. |
I read that hard sope will help here as on the pegs too, though I thought of graphit first ... theoretically.
| Quote: | | ... when your taste for fine ouds will develop in time you will find it very hard to tune it. |
You mean "historic" ouds? Why is it more difficult to tune them?
That ticket will cost nearly 180 Euros ... so I think travelling by car is the only option ... and a lot of hassle. And from what I saw on their Ebay
shop, chances are small, that they have an oud, I will like.
And just for a little experience that trip is too long and expensive.
| Quote: | | You can't have any idea looking at pictures. |
Yes, for shure ... let's knock on wood ... maybe I'll soon have a chance to test a used Samir Azar oud.
| Quote: | | I mean the guys who play in cafes and stuff, do you think they will usually spend more than $1500 on an oud? |
Well, from what I read, Syrian musicians pay around 120$ for a Sukar oud, we have to pay 400$ or even more 
Well, I don't think, I'll become an oud collector
I don't expect my first oud to be perfect, but my second one should be able to serve me well for several years.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Well, from what I read, Syrian musicians pay around 120$ for a Sukar oud, we have to pay 400$ or even more
There's customs, taxes, shipping, and several people along the line making a living, no? I can't believe Europeans, traveling a few hundred km becomes
an impossible expedition! If you can't go try one out, and can't spend over $1000, stick to a maker that has a very good track record.
Historic ouds have wood pegs, he meant, not geared machines.
The nut is very tricky because of the angles involved. You will see.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Yes, but the 400$ I mentioned is without shipping and taxes If someone buys from
a dealer in the US, you're right.
| Quote: | | I can't believe Europeans, traveling a few hundred km becomes an impossible expedition! |
From what I saw in their shop on Ebay, it is very likely, that this trip will end in a little more experience and not in an oud, I'd like to buy. And
because I'm not willing to pay 180€ for the overpriced german train, I will have to stay for about 6-8 hours or even more on the highway (incl. the
way back), depending of traffic. If I would know, that they also sell ouds from good luthiers besides this questionable factory ones, I would have
been already there.
| Quote: | | If you can't go try one out, and can't spend over $1000, stick to a maker that has a very good track record. |
That's one of my plans. Besides that, I might soon have the chance to buy a used Samir Azar oud, which I can tryout before ... let's knock on wood
If I should find out, that this oud isn't the right type for me, I might try the Mannheim trip or ask some Turkish people around here for tips.
| Quote: | | The nut is very tricky because of the angles involved. You will see. |
Thanks for the hint.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Chris,
The cheaper Gotoh pegs were designed by a company whose name I forget, Meisel I think, but I just read they just went out of business, so we will see,
but it looks like a less expensive source of metal pegs just went under, and we may be back to > $100 for four. We'll see what the Japanese store
says, i have friends in Tokyo who could help us if needed.
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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The Perfection Pegs are a bit cheaper ... check the link I posted above.
| Quote: | | We'll see what the Japanese store says, i have friends in Tokyo who could help us if needed. |
Wow, thanks for the infos.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Oh, Chris, here is another good example of quite "Arabic" timbre:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2d9hNOKZYw
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 786
Registered: 9-17-2007
Location: Behind my oud
Member Is Offline
Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Well, I don't think, I'll become an oud collector
I don't expect my first oud to be perfect, but my second one should be able to serve me well for several years. |
No I didn't really mean that, what I'm trying to get across is that the deeper you get into ouds, i.e. the more you try out, and the further your
playing develops, you realise that as every oud is unique, often one oud will not fulfill all your needs, unless you are really lucky, or one-eyed
(one eared?) or spend a wad of cash on a custom built oud to your taste, (which even then may change). For instance - I have a really nice oud that is
well playable, has a great tone, and looks good, but after playing live with it a few times, realised it just doesn't have the projection I need, so
bought another, which projects really well, but that one is SO loud I can't play it late at night for instance, whereas the other one I can without
causing too much angst for my housemates/neighbors etc. Also you may, as others here mentioned, want to use various tunings for different
projects/bands/styles, or need a different tone, or response, so later you may realise you need more than just the one oud.
At least you really do need to do what others have suggested and personally try out as many as possible. Then you may have a better idea of the
complexities involved.
Happy ouding!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1162
Registered: 10-14-2009
Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Mood: No Mood
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Hi again!
Wow, that's an old one ... the looks of the guy left behind of the player made me smile, btw.
Ah, ok, now I know, what you mean. Later maybe an electric oud might become handy, be it for playing late in the evening with headphones or for some
new approaches as I'm not that interested in oriental classic music, but more in a fusion with Rock and Pop.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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Mood: m'Oudy
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Chris, I don't know if oud is so special, or the people in this groups are. I imagine there are fanatics of television sets who own several, one for
each room and mood. But I think it's not the same thing. I quickly went from 0 to 3 ouds, so i'm like others here.
I appreciate subtle differences and each musical instrument is like a world to explore. But there is something about what we might call the "older
instruments", the oud is one for sure, that calls us to a deeper sense of music, and that's no joke.
When you consider that many people here started out with the intention of using the oud their way, only to find themselves learning Taqsim and Arabic
music theory along with other oud players, it says a lot about the persuasive nature of this instrument.
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
Member Is Offline
Mood: m'Oudy
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Let me give you the simple version: I did not expect to, but I found in Maqamat a different approach to music, that I need & want to better
understand.
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