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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Neck joint
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Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
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This is very beautiful Jameel, simple, clean as usual, graceful and reveals a true master at work. I can not wait to see the rest.
Did you consider using carbon fiber for the stringer? Both LMI and Stewart-MacDonald are offering different shapes and sizes. Pound for pound this
stuff is stiffer than steel.
Are the ribs quarter sawn? What do you think of using flat or rift saw?
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
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Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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Nicely executed craftsmanship. I like the dove tail joint. How do you set the angle of the neck with a dove tail joint?
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Gabriel
Oud Maniac
Posts: 65
Registered: 5-7-2005
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it seems all your ouds have a distinctive style,clean,accurate and buitiful.
your ouds always have a nice feeling to them.
that is a very buitiful label.
keep this great work up!!
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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These are Verry Verry nicely taken shots of your work Jameel...
Its amazing really
I cant wait to see the end result. It's looking like a pure classic.
And that label is real nice.
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
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Mood: big band envy
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Wow! Such clean and beautiful work!
I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but it makes an impression on me everytime I see pics of your progress.
Geia sta xeria sou Jameel!
mav
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Ok guys, stop gushing or I'll disappear! 
Hosam,
I did think about the carbon fiber (or do you mean the graphite epoxy stuff at lmii?), but haven't researched it at all. You know lutes don't use a
mechanical stringer, or even a dovetail. They utilize a bevelled butt joint with a nail or screw as reinforcement. The necks are softwood core usually
with a thick veneer (1.5mm). Considering that there are dozens and dozens of 500 year old lutes still around, in great condition no less, has got me
re-considering oud neck construction. And these instruments are almost always 6+ courses, so more tension than a typical oud. I think this dovetail
is the best joint we know of, generally, and will hold quite well even with minimal glue. Now the issue of the neck itself bending over time is a
separate one from the strength of the joint. If the joint is sound, but the neck bends, the sound joint becomes pointless. And vice versa. So if we
have a sound joint and a stiff neck, the action can raise up from the body folding up. This has nothing to do with the neck. I think in the end the
best way to keep things in place is to slather everything with JB Weld. Just kidding! ......is to make the neck joint sound, make the neck as stiff as
possible (remember the lute, it has nothing special to accomplish this other than the veneer, which does help), and I think most importantly, is to
make the oud as easy as possible to readjust the action down the road. Take for example a typical arabic oud. The quick and dirty way to re-adjust the
neck angle is to whip out your saw and cut off the neck. Drill a couple holes for a new dowel (I'm no fan of the dowel, even for furniture), taper the
neck block (!) or the end of the neck (double!) and reglue. Well, you've just shortened the scale length that the original maker was so careful to
build around. You've also spoiled his careful neck joinery. Now to do it the right way (imo) the binding tiles have to be removed, the top lifted, and
the neck removed with heat and moisture (assuming hide glue). This is a huge job. Would it not be great to have a quickly removable neck? I would much
rather drop a rose (to access the neck block) than remove a top. I'm really just brainstorming here out loud, I'd like to hear some of your ideas
about this.
Mostly quartersawn the ribs are (say with Yoda's accent  )
I cut them all from a thick chunk that tapered off of quarter towards one side. I've used both quarter and flat. I don't think it much matters. But
I'm no expert. Lute makers use both. I guess it all depends on what look you want.
Elie,
I just made the dovetail square all the way around. I'll plane the neck angle later, thus the extra thickness above the neck block plane.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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Bone Pegs
I made this peg shaper for some bone pegs I'm planning on trying on this instrument.
Bone just doesn't cut well with typical woodworking tools. So I ended up grinding a high angle bevel (60 degrees) on the shaper's blade. It worked
like a charm. I get actual bone shavings with this tool. It works like a dream on wood too. See the shine on the shank? That's straight from the
cutter!
I made the shank quite thin. This is better for more precise tuning, since you have to turn the peg farther to raise/lower the pitch, and since it is
bone it will hold up better than wood.
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revaldo29
Oud Junkie
Posts: 418
Registered: 6-24-2004
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
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Mood: inspired
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Hey Jameel,
I've never seem bone pegs before. Has this been done before and do they hold well?
Adnan
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Adnan,
Bone pegs are used all the time. Many old instruments, before mechanical tuners, used typical friction pegs. I've seen a couple ouds with bone pegs.
Some are even ivory. I've never used them before, but they are supposed to be better than wood. Here are some interesting links:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Banjo/Fairbanks/FandC/fandc....
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPAGES/Museum/Guitar/Martin/01034/01034.ht...
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPAGES/Museum/Guitar/Martin/01034/01034.ht...
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Museum/Guitar/Martin/MartinHarp/mar...
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TruePharaoh21
Oud Junkie
Posts: 789
Registered: 3-17-2003
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving the Oud
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Jameel,
You just continue to out-do yourself. What kind of bone is it? I wonder how it'll hold... great job.
TP21
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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My question is... Where do you find bone pegs?? Did you make them? ( wouldnt suprise from you actualy  )
I can see the big picture on this oud slowly comming togheter. Its going to be one elegant... fine peice of oud
Keep on keeping on Jameel
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TruePharaoh21
Jameel,
You just continue to out-do yourself. What kind of bone is it? I wonder how it'll hold... great job.
TP21 |
It's probably water buffalo or something. Who knows? If I get mad cow disease, we'll know where it came from.
| Quote: | Originally posted by SamirCanada
My question is... Where do you find bone pegs?? Did you make them? ( wouldnt suprise from you actualy )
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I didn't make them. Although I have been thinking about dusting off my lathe and turning some pegs. But turning bone pegs would be a real pain.
Here's a shot of the shamsa for this oud. I just finsihed the center calligraphy. I carved it a bit to give the letters a 3-D look, similar to a lute
rose. It's Ivory Linen Micarta. It's not nearly as easy to cut as bone, this one is going to take a while.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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WOW.
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Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
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Mood: No Mood
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Shaving those pegs is a great idea. It will definitely allow for better tuning. I will use your improved pegs on all of my future ouds. I have
contacted the same supplier and inquired if he would do a custom bone pegs with inlay for the Nahat oud. The answer was no, so I ended up ordering the
same pegs you have ordered along with MOP inlay materials.
It is interesting that every time there is a discussion about the oud neck construction only the structure aspect is brought up. I believe that the
neck design and the used materials will directly effect the sustain and volume of the oud. I do not know the secret behind the fact that the lutes
seem to hold up better than ouds in the test of time. Most likely it has to do less with design and more with the construction method and quality. I
am not also excluding the proper care/use for the completed instrument.
Assuming a very snug fit between the peg box, neck and the neck block to minimize energy loss hence the damping of the vibrating frequencies, I would
like to try:
• Reinforce the neck joint with both the peg box and the neck block using a single or double carbon fiber rods (or graphite-epoxy).
• Increasing the thickness of the fingerboard (using only rosewood or ebony)
• Laminating the peg box walls on a 2 mm rosewood sheet in the middle.
• Use hard maple or mahogany for the neck and laminating the outside with matching wood that was used for the body.
The added weight/improved stiffness to a neck will not only benefit the structure aspect. It will improve the sustain and increase the volume of the
oud. A better bridge design should be implemented otherwise we just transferred the problem from the neck to the body/face.
I do not see why not using an adjustable truss rod (from peg box side), bolts on neck or any other method to resolve neck adjustment problem. The
short oud neck did not really prevent all these problems that oud maker has to deal with (most of repair jobs are neck related).
Here is a cross section of neck using double carbon fiber rods.
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Hosam
Oud Junkie
Posts: 180
Registered: 12-6-2005
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Here is a quick and dirty way that it implemented by some luthiers to reset the neck angle and adjust the action without removing the soundboard or
disassembling the neck.
A very thin tapered piece of hardwood is driven into a small seem that is created by pulling down the neck away from the body. The depth of the wood
scrap will determine the final resetting angle.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Very interesting info Hosam. You've given me much to consider. Most repaired ouds I've seen have this wedge driven in. I don't like it. I guess the
oud has just been a "yalla, it's good enuf" type of instrument. In some way I can't disagree with that attitude, I appreciate the impermanence of it.
I think with the internationalization (is that a word?) of the oud, these improvements are bound to occur. I think the simplest neck adjustment would
be a quick and easy means to remove the neck. Not necessarily a truss-rod, since the short neck and light tension negate it. I'm thinking lately about
a small bolt through the neck block and engaging the neck tenon, entering the back of the bowl just below the neck joint, and being covered by a nice
cap, flush with the ribs. This area doesn't get touched really, and its a nice inconspicuous space. Removing the neck would be as easy as removing
the cover and removing a single screw. The neck joint itself would get its stiffness from an well-fitted dovetail or similar joint. A small amount of
glue could be used as well, which could very easily be steamed loose when the bolt is removed.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Finished rose
I began cutting the rest of the shamsa when I decided this micarta (ivory linen) was just too much of a pain. It's paper-based, and the blade (I tried
several different ones) would clog readily, and the blade would lurch forward unexpectedly. This wasn't much of an issue with the calligraphy since it
is so delicate, it required a light touch anyway. But with the rest of the piece, where I would normally cut a bit faster since the precision accuracy
isn't as critical, this material was a real bear. So I saved the center piece and cut the rest from some walnut ply I made.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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another view
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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I love the conrast. Classic. And it makes the mircata look like ivory.
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Peyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 496
Registered: 7-22-2005
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Mood: Mahoor
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That's a good idea. Very nice Jameel, 
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chaldo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 295
Registered: 2-13-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: archaic mood
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I just love it, what can I say more?
You are an artist, creative and innovative person, you operate with preciseness, you look after details, you are meticulous, you are a person who can
show his feelings/sensations through art, all this is accompanied by skill and craft in an awesome mix, flavors and moods can easely be extracted out
of your work. One doesn't even have to look at the final result, first steps and initial details says it all, but most importantly, they tell about
you. If you pass by Montréal, you absolutely need to pass by.
Thanks for letting me know that we are not living in a completely artificial world, determined by simulated emotions and expressions. thanks, Elia
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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What's the news Jameel?
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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I decided to let this oud age a while to develop its flavor and complexity. Much like a fine wine.
Just kidding. I've been very busy lately and the oud is on the back burner for a couple weeks.
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