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Anija
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Any further leads for the approx. dates of the Ottoman sickle-shaped pegboxes?
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Aymara
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Hi again!
Oops, I missed that and corrected my translation accordingly.
Quote: Originally posted by jdowning  | | ... leading eventually to total abandonment of frets on the oud for performers (but not the theoreticians) ... |
Interesting thesis.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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Thesis? Not according to Farmer's analysis in his research paper "Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted" in trying to explain why there is not one
example of a fretted lute depicted in the iconography from the year 1300 onwards (and so was obviously unaware of the existence of the oud engraving,
subject of this thread).
His conclusion was that use of frets had already fallen into general disuse by the 14th C although the authors of the surviving theoretical works such
as Quth al-Din al- Shirazi (early 14th C), Muhammad al-Amuli (14thC) and Ibn Ghaild (early 15th C) all continue to mention frets.
So, of course does, Safi al-Din who died at the end of the 13th C.
Farmer scorns researcher Baron Carra de Vaux for daring to suggest that Safi al-Din's oud had 5 double courses based on a fretting tablature that
appears in a single example of a manuscript copy of Safi al-Din's other great work the "Risalat al-sharafiyya" where double lines had been drawn by
the copyist to depict the strings. Clearly, Farmer might have been persuaded otherwise if he had been aware of the oud engraving - and he cannot have
overlooked it as he examined seven copies of both books without finding another example of the double lined tablature (or the oud engraving).
The oud engraving in the Kitab al-Adwar may, therefore, have been a unique addition by the early 14th C copyist of the manuscript.
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Aymara
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Yes, regarding the question WHY the oud became unfretted and not WHEN.
Did Farmer write about the WHY too?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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I don't know that Farmer was interested or clever enough to speculated on WHY - he just accepted the historical fact.
What is your thesis on the WHY of the general obsolescence, historically, of oud frets Aymara?
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Aymara
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If I understood it correctly, the fretted oud had only a few frets (not the whole fingerboard) and was fretless below, so that it might be possible,
that some virtuosos of these days used this fretless area too?
Maybe a famous oudist of these days tried playing a fretless oud, while exchanging the frets, which he might have done by himself, because they were
made of gut. Maybe he liked it that much, that he furthermore only played fretless and made this fretless custom oud famous too? So that more and more
people tried it too, just to find out, that it has big advantages.
If it happened that way, it's maybe possible to find hints who these first fretless players were, though I don't expect this research to be easy.
But who knows, maybe I'm totally wrong.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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The attached detail of a pre-14th C miniature painting is an example of the two sound hole oud design (thanks Anija).
Note the third small sound hole or 'window' (fenestre) sometimes seen in the European iconography depicting oud/lute-like instruments.
Also note the six point star design of the rosettes, the edge banding of sound board, fingerboard and pegbox, and the enigmatic pegbox shape -
straight sided except for the abrupt curve at the end finishing with the 'cloven' peg box finial seen in profile view.
Note also the absence of a mizrab or risha. The oud player appears to be using thumb and forefinger to pluck the strings - like a 16th C lute player
would.
This image shows some evidence of tampering with the original - particularly in the depiction of the number of strings. Some of the strings - still
faintly visible - appear to have been erased. Why?
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Aymara
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Very interesting ... makes me curious about the origin (when and where) of this image.
| Quote: | | Some of the strings - still faintly visible - appear to have been erased. Why? |
Maybe they weren't erased, but painted this way, so that the soundholes become better visable?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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I shall ask Anija to provide the correct answer concerning the strings depicted in this miniature painting - time permitting.
According to Dr Rahab Saoud "The Arab Contribution to Music of the Western World" the use of first finger and thumb to strike the strings or with the
sequence thumb, first finger and thumb again - a technique known as "Jass" - was described in the 10th C by Al-Khawarzimi in his "Mafatih al-Ulum".
Dr Saoud uses this and other related early references of that period in time to support the argument of Muslim influence on the almost coincidental
'discovery' of the organum (earliest form of polyphony) in Europe.
Dr G.H. Farmer also writes that Ibn Sina (11th C) unmistakably describes the performance of the simultaneous consonance of the fourth, fifth and
octave in the practical part of his treatise.
This first finger/thumb (either " thumb under" or "thumb out") technique was prevalent among lutenists during the 16th/17th C in Europe with the
switch from plectrum to plucking with fingers generally assumed to have occured around the end of the 15th C - or did it?
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning |
This first finger/thumb (either " thumb under" or "thumb out") technique was prevalent among lutenists during the 16th/17th C in Europe with the
switch from plectrum to plucking with fingers generally assumed to have occured around the end of the 15th C - or did it? |
Regarding the Europian lute the german Wikipedia explains, that the index-finger/thumb technique came up around 1500 for melody oriented playing,
while the middle and ring finger were used too to play chords. The finger's angle was nearly parallel to the strings, which changed to a nearly 90°
angle in late Renaissance and early Baroque to better suit the bass lines in compositions of that era.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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Yes - well understood techniques still practiced today by those of us who play the 'Renaissance' lute and other plucked instruments of that era and
who have long since been 'weaned' away from the classical guitarist right hand technique - nails and all!
Baroque lutes as well as large extended neck lutes (arch lutes etc.) are played by extending the thumb - rather like classical guitar player - in
order to reach the bass strings beyond those stopped on the fingerboard. These lutes can have up to 14 courses - quite a handful!
What is the evidence in support of German Wikipedia's claim that the switch from plectrum to finger plucking occurred around 1500? Speculation
perhaps?
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | What is the evidence in support of German Wikipedia's claim that the switch from plectrum to finger plucking occurred around 1500?
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There's no footnote, just a source list below the complete article, but HERE I found a userpage on a server of the University Berlin, which is based on:
Ermanno Briner: Reclams Musikinstrumentenfuehrer, Stuttgart: Philipp Reclam jun. 1998, 272-286.
This article dates the upcoming fingerpicking technique to the early 16th C too ... parallel to the introduction of frets and increasing prominence of
polyphony. Regarding a Venice treatise the plectrum is still used around 1550, but only seldom.
But further info about this treatise is missing.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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Frets on the oud were introduced much earlier than the early 16th C - witness the subject of this thread. So, if the European lute was a direct
development of the oud then it would likely have come with frets as well.
If oud players were already 'into' polyphony by the 11th C (using their fretted ouds) it would be of interest to know when the Europeans adopted the
same technique for their musical preferences. I doubt if anyone knows for sure but it is likely to be much earlier than the beginning of the 16th
C.
Conversely, it would be of interest to know when the oudists finally abandoned their polyphonic interests to focus only on the monophonic - but I
doubt if anyone knows that for sure either.
The only certainty, as far as the lute is concerned - evidenced by the earliest surviving printed lute tablatures appearing during the second decade
of the 16th C - is that the finger picking style was in use at that time. This does not mean, of course, that finger picking arrived coincidently with
the invention of lute tablature at the beginning of the 16th C.
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Sazi
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Pardon the interruption, but I just noticed in that miniature, it is a floating bridge oud!
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jdowning
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Yet none of the strings run over the bridge! Curiouser and curiouser!
(however, is not the floating bridge oud a modern invention dating back to the 1950's with no earlier historical pedigree?)
Nevertheless, all the more reason to find an original 'unimproved' copy of the miniature.
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | So, if the European lute was a direct development of the oud then it would likely have come with frets as well. |
That's why I would expect the Europian lute to never have been fretless. Or did it become fretless parallel to the oud and refretted in the 16th C?
But regarding the lute and early European music history we have a major problem: especially in the middle ages clergy were nearly the only people, who
were able to write and most music was considered devil's handiwork. So especially documentation about music started late in Europe and I expect a lot
of early documentation to be falsified.
| Quote: | | If oud players were already 'into' polyphony by the 11th C (using their fretted ouds) it would be of interest to know when the Europeans adopted the
same technique for their musical preferences. |
I also bet it started earlier as is documented. Clergy censorship is very likely. I think besides the devil's handiwork problem, they also weren't
happy about muslim's influence on European culture. I wish, what happened in Toledo, that Jeweish, Christian and Muslim scientists were working
peacefully together, would have become a positive example for whole Europe.
| Quote: | | Conversely, it would be of interest to know when the oudists finally abandoned their polyphonic interests to focus only on the monophonic - but I
doubt if anyone knows that for sure either. |
Yes, that's an interesting topic too.
| Quote: | | This does not mean, of course, that finger picking arrived coincidently with the invention of lute tablature at the beginning of the 16th C.
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Yes, because of the mentioned documentation problem. Maybe there are better chances to find muslim based documentation of that time?
Yes, it seems so, because it would make not much sense, when the strings are below this "bridge" ... I expect this to be a painting error.
| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | | ..., is not the floating bridge oud a modern invention dating back to the 1950's with no earlier historical pedigree? |
Maybe the floating bridge concept is much older and we found one of the first documentations here? Maybe the modern floating bridge is just a
reintroduction?
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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Lots of ifs, buts and maybes!!
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Aymara
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Shure ... and it will be a lot of work to find evidences or something, that disproves this theories.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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That's the problem with speculating but I wish you luck in your quest for evidence Aymara.
As theories about the history of floating bridge ouds (beyond the certain knowledge that they are a modern invention) are way off topic, the results
of your research should be posted as a new and separate topic on the forum. I have no doubt that the subject matter will be of interest to many
members.
However, before pinning too much faith in the miniature painting as providing proof of an early floating bridge oud, be aware that the example of the
image as posted is said to have been altered from its original state in fairly recent times (hopefully a photographic image was modified and not the
original!).
Although it can only be positively confirmed by examination of the unaltered original (or a high resolution photograph of the original), it is likely
that the artist did not represent the strings (or frets if there were any) - not because of error or incompetent draughtsmanship (!) - but because he
chose not to include that detail (often the case with these early miniature paintings apparently).
A close examination of the lines that are being taken to be 'strings' reveals that not only do they run under the bridge but also under the rosettes,
fingerboard decoration and side banding. Further evidence that these lines are unlikely intended to represent 'strings' is that the peg box is devoid
of pegs.
What is more likely is that the multitude of lines - some faintly visible extending outside the bridge - is intended by the artist to represent wood
grain - important possibly because this is a representation of al-ud - an instrument with wooden and not a skin sound board.
The 'improvement' of the image can be seen in the five heavy red lines that ARE meant to represent strings - allegedly added by a certain modern
researcher needing to illustrate an early oud with five single courses. (There may also be some erasure of the original lines to further 'clarify'
things a bit?).
Of course, none of this affects the subject matter of this thread as the image of the miniature painting was only included as another example in the
iconography of an oud with two large sound holes, six point star rosette pattern, sickle shaped peg box and with that enigmatic peg box terminal - no
more, no less.
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Sazi
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| Quote: Originally posted by Aymara |
Yes, it seems so, because it would make not much sense, when the strings are below this "bridge" ... I expect this to be a painting error.
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Maybe not...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/files.php?pid=54341&aid=82...
This is a Syrian oud by Zaher Khalife, photo courtesy of Fadel.
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Aymara
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Interesting, though this Khalife oud also has a floating bridge, but the strings don't go over it, but through it.
Regarding the painting I first thought, that it might be a bridge over the strings, with the purpuse to support the hand while finger picking ...
remember, in early finger picking the fingers were parallel to the strings.
But if this bridge in the painting would be a "hand support", the heel of the hand would be placed above it and not behind it.
So I interpret this painting as a vague hint to an early floating bridge oud.
PS: Regarding to JDowning's hint, that the current floating bridge discussion is slightly off-topic and many people interested in this topic might not
find it here, I started a NEW DISCUSSION about the history of the floating bridge.
PPS: I hope it is ok, that I posted the painting in the other thread? I pointed to this thread as the source.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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jdowning
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No problem Aymara.
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danyel
Oud Addict
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | Here is an image of a miniature representing an
oud (?) with a 'sickle' shaped pegbox. The diamond shaped flat plate at the terminal end of the pegbox seems to 'stick out at the back' which might
explain the peculiar pegbox 'finial' so quaintly represented in the print of the oud?
Does anyone know the source of the miniature and its date? Persian perhaps? |
It is Ottoman, indeed, found in the Sûrnâme of Murad III, 1582, fol 19r.
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danyel
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | Browsing through a few of my old files the other day I came across this woodcut of what appears at first sight to be a rather quaint depiction of an
early oud. However, a preliminary analysis of the geometry of this illustration, assuming that it is not a rough drawing but an accurate and precise
representation of an early oud, has revealed some interesting and close correlations with early lute design that will be posted later.
First of all does anyone know the original source document from which this illustration is taken and its date (14th C?). The wood cut is unfamiliar to
me but may be well known to other forum members. Identification of the source should help confirm that the illustration is indeed that of an oud and
not some other closely related instrument |
It is not a woodcut nor an engraving. It is a drawing with qalam and ink. I have seen the microfilm of this manuscript and countless manuscripts like
that. Though block printing was common in China since the Tang dynasty, the only block printing in the islamic world at that time (mid 14th C CE) I am
aware of are amulets, maybe playing cards. Copyist was a profession, some scribes were specialized on scientific manuscripts with exact drawings. Many
scribes were equipped with compass and ruler which were very common. No doubt the scribe here attempted to render the rough proportions as described
in various other oud-manuals or chapters (like Kanz at-Tuhaf, but not in Urmanwî's works!) and he had obviously seen 'îdân (unlike the later
scribes who copied the extant Kanz at-Tuhaf manuscripts), but this does not mean that this rough sketch would delineate the geometry of a period oud
in a reliable way. The scribe was not in any way attached to the author (working 40 years after the latter' death) and Urmawî does not even touch
upon oud geometry anywhere in his extant writings. Hence the drawing was meant to be a diagram in which to point out the names of strings and parts of
the oud, even the number of silk threads used for the strings.
This illustration is valuable because it shows an oud with clearly attached neck (as opposed to the prevalent tear drop shape) and a nice musht
(bridge) and two auyun (small roses).
cf. http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=8488&pa...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=10010&p...
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danyel
Oud Addict
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| Quote: Originally posted by jdowning | Thesis? Not according to Farmer's analysis in his research paper "Was the Arabian and Persian Lute Fretted" in trying to explain why there is not one
example of a fretted lute depicted in the iconography from the year 1300 onwards (and so was obviously unaware of the existence of the oud engraving,
subject of this thread).
His conclusion was that use of frets had already fallen into general disuse by the 14th C although the authors of the surviving theoretical works such
as Quth al-Din al- Shirazi (early 14th C), Muhammad al-Amuli (14thC) and Ibn Ghaild (early 15th C) all continue to mention frets.
So, of course does, Safi al-Din who died at the end of the 13th C.
Farmer scorns researcher Baron Carra de Vaux for daring to suggest that Safi al-Din's oud had 5 double courses based on a fretting tablature that
appears in a single example of a manuscript copy of Safi al-Din's other great work the "Risalat al-sharafiyya" where double lines had been drawn by
the copyist to depict the strings. Clearly, Farmer might have been persuaded otherwise if he had been aware of the oud engraving - and he cannot have
overlooked it as he examined seven copies of both books without finding another example of the double lined tablature (or the oud engraving).
The oud engraving in the Kitab al-Adwar may, therefore, have been a unique addition by the early 14th C copyist of the manuscript.
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