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fernandraynaud
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Can't help some generalizations in trying to understand. It's great if you have local access to all the roots. Go play, Branko, me go play too. 
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Aymara
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I think, this is one of the most important statements in this whole off-topic discussion!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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Edward Powell
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Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud  | "But, in all fairness, not many Arabs are even scratching it, let alone deeply learning it. "
Theres plenty of great Arab oud players, what is this comment based on. recordings in the marketplace, or the limited Western view?
The West often forgets there are musicians in the Middle East that havent made it to light. So mass generalisations like that are only generalisations
unless you have lived all over the Arab world.
People can imitate and regurgitate, fine. Learn A technique, fine. But what Im saying, the music has deeper groundings in other artforms aswell as in
language, poetry etc. These must be learned, even as a respect to a tradition. Its not about regurgitating, its about learning and growing from it.
Theres the saying you have to walk before you can run. Some players just want to start running and thats the problem. Im not saying a Western player
may not be able to feel the oud, the oud is for everybody, but Im talking about Westerners that want to "grow" the music, when they themselves have
problems with basic concepts in the music. If theyre not fooling the audience, then they are fooling themselves.
Everybody can be accepted as long as they are willing to learn and emerse themselves in the culture and then its there choice to use it or not, and
the art grows from something rather than growing from a couple of recordings and a copuple of maqams.
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Now we can also take these comments and turn them around and look at it from the other side - as has been my own personal experience.
I started to get deeply interested in JAZZ, and when I say JAZZ I am essentially refering to what I consider the "golden age" of jazz: BEBOP. The
coltrane - parker era.
This was in Vancouver Canada around 1984... I used to go to the small jazz cafes and listen to the local players... Man these guys could play SO
WELL, they could just transport you - send non-stop shivers up and down your spine - it was truly amazing. These dudes REALLY knew what they were
doing when they played jazz... all of what they played was based on traditional jazz standards with chords and amazing chromatic-type solo lines. I
will not say that they played in an old fashioned style - they stretched out unbelievably but always stayed within the traditional FRAMEWORK.
A couple of years later I went to India for the first time, and from there I completely lost track of jazz.
2 decades after that I found myself in Istanbul learning traditional Turkish music. . . . and to my surprise the majority of the "art musicians"
were infatuated with JAZZ. Jazz is now the "cool thing" in Istanbul. [it is slowly also coming here to Cairo, but Cairo is about 10 or 15 years behind
Istanbul].
The problem for me with jazz in Istanbul is that at a young age I experienced jazz in it's native territory that had developed to about as high as it
ever could [i think that even now in Vancouver you will not find such jazz talent as what was around in the early 80's], so what I heard people
calling "jazz" was pretty anti-climatic.
But that is not to say that they shouldn't do it or that they are doing a bad thing..... but many of these Turkish jazz players had no idea from
where the jazz standards come from, and in fact only had a vague idea of what a jazz standard actually was... [certainly taking "short cuts" - simply
learning some jazz theory] But they are enjoying the freedom to try out new sounds and styles, and Turkish jazz is now in it's infancy, and let's
see where it will develop - - - I'm sure than in time it will evolve into a beautiful new musical form.
Now, I see a parallel with Westerners learning Oriental music. I will be the first to tell anyone that I can't play like Amjad ali Khan or Yurdal
Tokcan.... but I am also sure that if I and others like me will stick with it sincerely for long enough, we will forge a new kind of music - - -
- perhaps this new music will only develop into it's full maturity only 1, 2, or 3 generations after we are all dead...
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud |
Branko, taking 2 minutes of improv out of context I think we can make anybody sound boring. Are you saying Edward's a lousy improviser?
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out of context? - boring? - on the list? ...these things are not to important. It is more a question of taste I think. Directly after this concert
Sandor Szabo [one of Hungary's most gifted guitarists] approached me saying he was "deeply moved" by the performance, and he wished to collaborate -
and we are still good friends today.
However, I am fully aware that my music is boring for the vast majority of people. That's fine. In fact how could it be otherwise....?
To me it seems to be a question of over-stimulation. For example a carrot, brown rice, and yellow peas with some salt is extremely boring for most
people. But does that mean this food is bad quality. If you are used to spicy, oily, fried, rich food, or junk food, or coke, burgers, ice cream and
all of that --- how are you going to find any pleasure eating a raw slice of cabbage?
Who is going to live longer and be more healthy? The person living on a diet of over-stimulating food, or a diet of natural food pratically straight
out of the ground?
So, I have my own personal philosophy and my own life-style - and this is reflected in my music. Some people love it - others not.
By the way Branko, why don't you put up some clips of your playing -- I don't mean this spitefully, I honestly would like to hear you man.
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JamesOud
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I just want to make it clear that Im not saying westerners should not play oud, Im saying if they expect to be in the more professional arena and be
accepted by the Arabs, then they better study and learn all aspects of the music to earn their respect and status. A couple of months in Turkey or
India or wherever, doesnt give a right for someone to adopt a culture and do it poorly. Its an understanding.
Whether you like it or not, playing music in the professional arena is a type of ambassador for that instrument and its culture and it better be done
well...
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Lazzaro
Oud Junkie
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what do you think about this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auqaJmi_zYc
yes, I know, I am a little bit crazy
ciao to all 
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
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Mood: مبتهج ; ))
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by JamesOud | | A couple of months in Turkey or India or wherever, doesnt give a right for someone to adopt a culture and do it poorly. |
...and why not? Who is the one to decide who has the right to do this or that?
Had it ever occured to you that what you call "adopt a culture" might in fact be great display of friendship and respect? It has been said that
imitation is the greatest compliment.
Maybe there is something more important going on here than "accuracy" and "perfectionism" in music.... maybe this humanity needs to start becoming
more friendly with eachother so we can start to get beyond the mistrust and aggression between cultures.
Maybe thru learning music from another culture, and yes, even doing it professionally, we can start to bridge this dangerous gap.
If you set the standards so high, and frighten people away, then who is going to even try. Even as it is now there is only a tiny fragment with the
courage to even try - - - so what do you want, to build even higher walls between cultures.
Why not congradulate and encourage those who have the balls to venture into the unknown of a new culture (HOWEVER SUPERFICIALLY), rather than beating
them down for not coming up to unrealistic standard of perfectionism (rarely achieved by natives themselves)?
- - -
If your last comment was in any way directed at me.... please have a listen to my latest CD http://www.andreamurdock.com/ragmakam.zip ---if you don't like this, then fine, I rest my case.
I spent more than 5 years in India, learned Hindi, and studied with top sitarist Budhaditya Mukherjee for 3 years. I've been involved with
middle-eastern music for 15 years, and am now in Egypt collaborating with one of Egypts finest and best known ney players Mohammed Antar - who claims
that he prefers to play with me rather than Egyptians, not only because of my experience with Indian music, but simply because he says I have a better
since of intonation than Egyptian players.
So please try to avoid the temptation to judge a book by it's cover  )
Lastly, it is very easy to judge. . . . so please James, qualify yourself by presenting to us a sample of your playing....
and we are still waiting for Branko's. . . . . .
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Edward Powell
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not crazy at all mio fratello! I will put you on the top of "my secret list")
BRAVO!
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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Its great if you can find a short cut. Take the place of hard working Arabs that have spent a lifetime. Novelty is great foot in. You cant have it all
and you cant play everything. Ive never heard of Mohamed Antar, but I assume theres something in it for him, maybe be money or some travel.
As for the 'round midnight clip", a nice imitation of farid and then it went absolutely no where. Again this is what we have as an ambassador to the
oud on an international stage.
Keep playing and keep practicing, but dont dismiss some of those around in the Arab world that are not lucky enough to have your platform.
5 years is nothing compared to a life time and if I remember correctly your first attempt to study oud in Cairo was last year. So now youre there
collaborating with an Egyptian musician. Im an awful oud player, but am aware of whats out there. I just feel its more about Edward justifying to
himself that he can do it. How bout continuing the focus in Indian music, not abdoning it after 5 years. Next year, you'll be playing Pipa in China in
Tianemen square
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
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doesn't surprise me....
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JamesOud
Oud Junkie
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You probably wouldnt be able to tell the difference. But I however, know not to try and take my inadequesy to the professional arena...
Good luck with it all...
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jass
Oud Maniac
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Hey Guys,
Can we get back to talking about Oriental jazz, whatever that is
Nice clips guys!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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Location: Germany / Ruhr Region
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Playing Thelonious Monk on oud isn't crazy, but great  ... and for shure it's Jazz.
And when I hear the applause at the end of the video, it seems the Cairo audience shared my opinion.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
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Location: San Francisco, California
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JamesOud, I feel sorry for your dog. You don't much like Edward's playing, you don't care for Lazzaro's, you don't even like your own. I can only
imagine how you treat that poor animal ;-)
In considering how I would approach an outsider who wanted to play a music I know well, say "rock" guitar, I think I could tell him to go experience
the culture, live and die in Los Angeles, listen to a lot of songs on the radio while stuck in traffic, suffer and extract the essence, and not take
any shortcuts. Or i could assemble a play list of the most influential pieces, maybe even a set of links, and compile and explain the essentials --
saving him a few years of undirected study. Granted it would take more effort, so it would all depend on whether I wanted him to succeed, or not.
There are a number of native players on this site, and elsewhere, who are doing exactly that, THANK YOU!
I know a young man who worked for Sony records, and whose difficult job was to help a Japanese singer learn Black Americanisms ;-) He did this
conscientiously, with good results. When it came to a marketing try, singing rhythm and blues love songs for a Black American audience, the sad truth
is that he would have been better appreciated with a paper bag on his head. He went back to Japan, where he continues to enjoy considerable success.
As an instrumentalist, he would have had more luck. There are plenty of Asian pianists, violinists, etc, in many different styles. This observation
probably applies everywhere: the higher the educational level of the audience, the more accepting of cross-cultural players.
When I was a kid in France, we all admired a famous American actor who sometimes came over to Europe and played an American heavy in French movies. I
was amazed to find out that Eddie Constantine was completely unknown in America and that he lived in France. Some of the "oud masters" are a little
like that. But, folks, no need to get excited, we need Eminem and Tatu too!
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Aymara
Oud Junkie
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It's more a matter of Social IQ, than education, isn't it?
But I think, we should end this off-topic debate, which leads to nothing than anger.
Please ... let's talk about Jazz again!
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1865
Registered: 7-25-2009
Location: San Francisco, California
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What is being said here can't be ignored. There is very little anger, considering how difficult it is. I can completely appreciate all sides of these
issues, and we all need to.
As to Round Midnight, I like Lazzaro's version better than Monk's. I'm still digesting it. I find the mix of taqsim and jazz idioms in this case
absolutely fascinating. I don't see where else it's supposed to go ... It's clearly a work in progress. Keep exploring!
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
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"Use what talent you possess - the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best."
Henry Van Dyke
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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The topic has intrinsic thorns, as jazz itself is one long history of "touchy appropriations". Miles' hubris could only be excused because of the
times he lived from.
Sazi, right on!
Having grown up all over, I saw Jazz and blue jeans popping up as a sort of liberation symbol in the most bizarre permutations, behind the Iron
Curtain, in Loussier's Bach adaptations, certainly far removed from its cotton fields roots. But one of the things that makes Jazz is that
finger-snappin syncopation, that is the essence of its ironic stance, its distance. As soon as you put a driving 4/4 or 3/4 or 7/8 rhythm on, it's no
longer jazz. That's why fusion is not jazz. Lazzaro manages something very curious and unique here.
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Edward Powell
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Nothing off topic has been said in my opinion... the topic is "Do you like Oriental Jazz?" ORIENTAL + JAZZ : what we are talking about here is a
meeting of two cultures, and whenever two cultures meet there are always going to be uncomfortable things to work out. I personally have appreciated
everyone's input so far, and have found value and validity in every single post. I hope nobody has felt personally attacked by anything I have said,
and I also do not feel personally attacked. I think we all have personal gripes that we build up inside of us, and it is a healthy thing to be able to
vent at bit and bounce our frustrations around a bit. I think we are all learning something.
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Lazzaro
Oud Junkie
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Thanks you very much my friends for yours words, I don't know what kind of music I play, it is absolutely work in progress. I love Arabic music and I
tray to learn it, is very difficult for me but give me a lot of good energy.
Massalama Ciao Ciao
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Greg
Administrator
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Bravo Maurizio. I really enjoyed your interpretation of this classic Monk tune. Whether it's jazz or not, I have no opinion. Nor do I think it's
important. The sooner we no longer feel the need to catagorize every form of music, the better (IMO).
Regards,
Greg
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Sazi
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Greg | Whether it's jazz or not, I have no opinion. Nor do I think it's important. The sooner we no longer feel the need to catagorize every form of music,
the better (IMO).
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Well said!
We either like it or we don't, and that's simply our own personal taste and opinion, which we have a right to. We have no right to impose our beliefs
on anyone else, no matter how well-founded we feel these beliefs to be. (That's my belief, you can believe whatever you want)
And as stated by Fernandraynaud, if we feel that it is needed, a little encouragement and guidance can make a world of difference, in a positive
way.
Thanks everyone for what is turning out to be a very interesting thread considering I don't like whatever it was that it started with...
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fhydan
Oud Maniac
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If you doubt that westerners can develop a highly refined "soul" for oriental music... Check out Julien Jalal Eddine. Originally french, he listened
to arabic music for the first time when he was 24 years old and he moved to the middle east and lived in Aleppo. This man's playing of the qanun is
pretty amazing. I'm arab and I wish I can play with as much soul.
http://www.4shared.com/file/174972115/6a8173f3/___.html
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Edward Powell
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1212
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| Quote: Originally posted by fhydan | If you doubt that westerners can develop a highly refined "soul" for oriental music... Check out Julien Jalal Eddine. Originally french, he listened
to arabic music for the first time when he was 24 years old and he moved to the middle east and lived in Aleppo. This man's playing of the qanun is
pretty amazing. I'm arab and I wish I can play with as much soul.
http://www.4shared.com/file/174972115/6a8173f3/___.html
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great playing, great man!
http://www.aljadid.net/music/0736asmar2.html
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