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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Gentlemen, you guys are tops. I am taking a few days off to regroup. Now I am looking for large sheets of sanding paper--tough to find. I may be
getting too nitpicky with this, but I think it would make it a little more accurate, perhaps, if I had a larger sheet, rather than gluing several
smaller sheets next to each other. And, sadly, one time the tip of the rib I was sanding got caught on one of the sheets of sandpaper, broke off, and
had to be tossed. Grrr!
Thanks again!
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Jameel
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I never bothered with larger sheets. I use 3m Super 77 adhesive, spray both the paper and the board, butt the ends of the paper together accurately
and you won't have a problem. The Super 77 is expensive, but it sticks like crazy. If you really want a larger sheet, you might try a large sanding
belt made for wide belt sanders. Those will be fabric backed.
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Jonathan
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I'll give the small sheets another shot, I guess. I have had no luck finding larger sheets. I had a tiny corner of one pop up, catch on to the tip
of the rib, and the rib broke. When you figure how much time goes into each rib--cutting, sanding, bending, sanding again--for me, that's gotta be
almost a couple of hours (don't laugh).
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Peyman. I took off that one problem rib, and added two more ribs today (I pretty much have the week off). Everything went fine. I made a
new sanding block. I don't know what the problem was, but I am not going to worry about it now. Maybe the glue under the sandpaper was uneven. I
don't know.
I am thinking about changing the pattern of the bowl slightly. I am not trying to wimp out, but I am thinking of having a total of 5 ribs of
lacewood, and the rest maple, for several reasons. First, the wood is just too difficult for me to work with. You guys don't know until you have
tried to bend it. If it doesn't want to bend where you want it to bend, it just won't. It is like having two different woods, each bending at
different rates. The maple, comparatively, is no problem at all. Second, it is irritating on my skin, and my lungs, even with the mask and good
ventiliation, which really bothers me.
So, lacewood down the middle, then, alternating maple/lacewood for 5 more ribs on each side. Then. . .
Don't know. Maybe just maple. Maybe something super dark.
Your guys are probably rolling your eyes, but I think it could look very, very cool. And, it will make the lacewood really stand out and look
special. I'll let you know.
Thank you all for all of the input. I am learning a great deal. I have developed an even greater respect for those luthiers that can make the ribs
all end at a point at the base of the bowl. Incredibly tough. As it stands now, I am going to either have a relatively large inlay or, more likely,
a fairly large endcap. Not huge, but still bigger than I would have liked.
The whole process is incredibly frustrating, yet incredibly rewarding. At one point today, I was dissatisfied with the whole thing and was ready to
start over. Now, however, I can sit back and stare at my 8 ribs and marvel at how good it looks.
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Jonathan
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Getting there, slowly. I won't be able to work on it again for at least another week, unfortunately. Filthy dirty, but you get the idea. The maple
looks like nothing now, but I have the feeling that those flames are really going to pop out when the bowl is finished.
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Mike
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I'm digging it Jonathan. Looks beautiful my friend. Keep at it.
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Jameel
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Looking nice, Jonathan. I can see the curl through all that glue! Here's an idea. Continue with maple (no pufling, so it looks like a continuous maple
section), and end the back with one rib each side of lacewood (with purfling between the lacewood and maple section). You only have to fit the one
edge, so it shoulnd't be too bad. Oh yeah, and when you go to clean off the glue and flush up your joints, start with a sharp cabinet scraper. No
dust, and it does a very quick job, faster than sandpaper.
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paulO
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Hey man..that maple will look plenty good when it's cleaned up, heck -- I can see the "curl" peeking out through the dirt !! The lacewood is a great
complement, looking forward to your next installment.
Cordially..PaulO
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mavrothis
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Great work Jonathan! Perserverence/patience are always rewarded! 
Keep up the great work!
mav
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys. Jameel, your idea sounds like a winner. I am going to shoot for that, except I am going to keep the purfling going.
I have seen two ouds recently that used flame/curly maple, and they both knocked me out. One was by Kyvelos, and one was by Merjanian.
Unfortunately, seeing them made me realize that I should have taken a little more time and made sure that the flames/curls in all of the ribs were
running in the same direction. Mine pretty much are, but not quite. I initially cut the rib blanks 1.5 inches wide, and the ribs are about 1 1/4
inch at their greatest point, so there was not much room for changing the angle. But, when cutting to the final shape, I would sometimes angle one
way or another to avoid a certain area of wood that might look troublesome. You will notice above that the flames are not all running in the same
plane. Not a biggie, though.
Wish I had more time to work on it this coming week, but it is going to be slow going through Christmas, unfortunately.
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Jonathan
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
Hey Johnanthan, it looks like an oud to me, they're always filthy dirty until the final sanding step. then when you wipe on some spirits, ouila!
beauty! |
This is going to sound stupid, but spirits? What's that?
See, told you I wasn't a woodworker.
And, for what it is worth, I really do like the titebond glue I am using. It is pretty much set in 30 minutes. I know hide glue has advantages, and
I am going to use it for the face, but this titebond stuff is just incredibly easy, and strong (I know from when I had to take that one rib off).
Wish I could be working on it right now. Going to have family over for Christmas--my goal is to at least finish the bowl by that time.
Roughly how thick do you guys think the end cap should be? I am going to go with that approach rather than the inlay. This oud is Turkish-size, and
I think that is more of the Turkish approach. I actually want to have a bit of a double end cap, if that makes any sense--a cap of lacewood, and
then about another 1-2 cm of maple just past that. Not traditional, I know, but what the heck.
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Jonathan
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Getting ahead of myself, I know, but about the neck:
Is that stringer running through the middle of it pretty much a new thing? Do older ouds have that as well?
I was thinking of making my neck out of maple, with an ebony fingerboard? Durable enough? Will I still need that stringer?
I am not sure at this point if I am going to put the thin strips of maple/purfling/lacewood on the neck. I am using a block of matching flame maple
for the neck, and might just leave it like that.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Getting ahead of myself, I know, but about the neck:
Is that stringer running through the middle of it pretty much a new thing? Do older ouds have that as well?
I was thinking of making my neck out of maple, with an ebony fingerboard? Durable enough? Will I still need that stringer?
I am not sure at this point if I am going to put the thin strips of maple/purfling/lacewood on the neck. I am using a block of matching flame maple
for the neck, and might just leave it like that. |
The center reinforing stringer is an adaptation of mine from guitar guitar construction. I have not seen any other maker using it, now or before. The
main ciincern is the peg box notch no matter what wood is used for the neck. When the notch is cut the neck is weakened considerably and often bends
at the deepest end of the notch, making the fingerboard appear warped. This warp will make a depression in the fingerboard causing a buzz unless the
string action is very high. The stringer passes through the pegbox and reinforces the neck through the notch. At the neck, it's a convenient way to
reinforce the neck/body joint. It can be adjusted for alignment with shims and still retain it's strength, which is considerably more than the
traditional butt joint/dowel pin or tongue method. I am planning to make a bolted neck since this method is widely used on guitars and allows
adjustment or correction of the string action by mechanical means. The inserts and bolts would require a harder wood, however, but the advantage may
offset the added wight. A maple neck is ok, but heavy - especially if you cover it with a veneer of your rib woods ( not a simple operation - I'd
consider doing a plain neck). Mahogany is lighter and just as stiff, but if you're covering it, I'd use spruce or pine with a center stringer just for
good measure.
The end cap should not be very thick, a 1/32 inch veneer is fine, it only is a cover for the rib junction after all. If you make it thicker the face
will have a bigger bulge at the tail end to cover the end cap edge.
Spirits is paint thinner.
If you think titebond is strong, you should read this article.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Doc. The article was a bit disheartening for me, of course, but, live and learn. I am learning a lot.
If the mahogany is just as strong, I guess I will get a block of that and use it for the neck. I did not realize that it was a stiff wood. Thanks.
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Jameel
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Jonathan,
Don't be disheartened by Ford's experiment. There is nothing wrong with Titebond. Hide glue, when used properly, is superior, but titebond is a fine
glue. There are plenty of luthiers who use it. Cumpiano and Natelson use it and they authored THE guitar construction book. What did Ford's test
prove? That titebond can release under great stress at 200 degrees. His room temperature test broke wood fibers. That's as strong as you get. So don't
use titebond on parts that get the stress, i.e. the bridge. Use hide. I'm pretty sure there is a pic in Richard's book that show him using yellow or
white glue (can't tell its not in color) when gluinig the bridge on. It doesn't look like hide, since it's so opaque. I hope the Doc doesn't write me
up in his chart for that one!  I wouldn't worry about the titebond. I use it on
90% of the oud. I'm no expert, but plenty of guys use it. Just remember how hard it was to get that rib off, your oud will hold together as long as
you don't store it in your oven!
See also: http://mimf2.qwk.net/library/catalog_finish.htm#glues
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by Jameel... I'm pretty sure there is a pic in Richard's book that show him using yellow or white glue (can't tell its not
in color) when gluinig the bridge on. It doesn't look like hide, since it's so opaque. I hope the Doc doesn't write me up in his chart for that one!
I wouldn't worry about the titebond. I use it on 90% of the oud. I'm no
expert, but plenty of guys use it. Just remember how hard it was to get that rib off, your oud will hold together as long as you don't store it in
your oven!... |
I was wondering when you guys would find me out.... It took 3 years! Well, ok I confess I use aliphatic resin glue myself for almost every thing that
I don't expect to dismantle ever and used it exclusively in the early years, while I was laboring in obscurity and ignorance. Lately since I got the
hide routine down, I use it more and more because it's so much easier to use - no clamping required for instance. You can just push the parts together
and it seems to pull the joint together as it cures, where resin glue must be clamped or the joint seems to "float" apart. OK Jameel, I was gonna add
you to my list, but the glue link was so good I decided to forgive you this time. I've gotta try that hot rag in the microwave, but I have to wait
until the boss is gone, or she'll beat me to a pulp. I was gonna try Frank's frozen hide glue until I asked about putting glue in the freezer - I
DON'T THINK SO!
I believe Ford's glue test conclusion is relative strength except in the case of the car trunk on a hot day in Dallas in August, where the
temperature can reach the release point of yellow glue. I know he uses all kinds of glue - it's just knowing when to use what.
Then there's the issue of the cured crystalline condition - hide glue cures harder than resin glue and is thought to transmit vibration better as a
result. I believe that a good glue joint fit is more important than the glue used anyway (except for white polyvinyl glue - never use it). Yellow glue
can be softened with moderate heat anyway for dismantling. I just made a fixture to heat my pallette knives with an old iron and it works pretty good
- the highest temperature of the iron will soften resin glue without discoloring even soft spruce.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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On the subject of hide glue here is another informative link:
http://deller.com/newpage8.htm
It sounds like wonder glue.
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Andy
Oud Junkie
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Have only completed 6 ouds and near completion of #7 but I've used Titebond on all parts of my ouds, yes even the bridge. There hasn't been a problem
at all with any of my joints failing. I use Titebond for my delicate bracing too.
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Jonathan
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6 ouds? That's a lot! You should post pictures of them all.
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Andy
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#1 I don't own but in the family, #2 is in K.C. MO. with my son, 3&4 are with me. My best are #5&6. I will post some picts when I figure out
how to do it I think my age is starting catching up with me
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Jonathan
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I kind of like just having the 5 lacewoods in the middle, and all the rest maple (except for the two ribs that are adjacent to the face, which will be
lacewood). I did it because I was sick of that lacewood, but I think it is going to turn out OK. If anything, maybe it will make the lacewood really
stand out. 15 ribs set, 6 more to go. It looks a little lopsided in the pic, but it is not--it is just that I have completed a lot more on one side
of the oud than on the other.
Jameel, I just started to notice, now that I am almost to the end on one side, that I, too, am running just a bit wider than the mould (maybe 1
cm).
I think that perhaps this is because of the way that I am taping the ribs together when they set. I wrap some tape from the back of the rib to the
front, with just a very slight "pull". I think that maybe that pull is enough to distort the wood away from the mould. Perhaps I should alternate,
and occasionally pull the opposite direction.
Ideally, I suppose, I should not wrap the tape around the edge of the rib. but I just don't feel comfortable doing it any other way.
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Jonathan
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I am going to do some prep work on the neck and peg box, although I am not yet done with the bowl. I was planning on using maple for the walls of the
peg box, unless anybody knows a reason why that would not be a good choice. And, lacewood with a stringer for the neck (the lacewood was so tough to
bend I figured it would be a good choice).
I am really trying to stick just with these two woods for the entire oud.
I am going to go with Dincer's model for the peg box.
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Peyman
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That's looking more and more better  BTW, if you need a bone nut,
I have several I bought 20 from a wholesaler off ebay. I can mail you one (for free).
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Jonathan
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Thanks. Right now, I am planning on making one myself, just so I can kick back and say I did the whole thing. But, I appreciate the offer. I made a
bone nut once before--took me two hours!
16 ribs down, 5 to go. Hard to tell in this pic, but I still have to add the one lacewood final rib to this side. The other side is not as
complete.
Looks good at first, but on closer inspection you can see the problems--primarily that the ribs are not all the same width. Really obvious with these
contrasting ribs, at the neck block and tail block.
Not quite as bad as it first looks, because the ribs have to be trimmed back to the neck block still, and it won't be nearly as obvious. Not too
concerned about the tail block area, because when I cover it up with that end cap, it will not be obvious. Gonna do a cool little inlay in the end
cap, hopefully.
All in all, I am satisfied.
Filthy dirty.
Getting there.
That glue sure gives the maple a nice glow, huh? Cant wait to scrape it all off and, eventually, put a finish on it.
Really learning a lot this time around. Already got my wood picked out for the next one--all mahogany, no purfling. The purfling has been a
headache. I should have used Dincer's approach, but that was not possible because I am not using hide glue (of course, I could have changed that).
Applying the purfling like I am doing now always throws off the angle just slightly. Live and learn.
Next time, I am going to skip the purfling altogether, and just let the main wood do the talking.
Lacewood for the neck, maple for the pegbox. Any problems with those choices? Thanks again.
In the pic, it looks like one purfling is thicker, or that the joint is gapped. I think that is just because the purfling needs to be sanded down--it
looks ok in real life. No gaps. No light.
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Jameel
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Looking nice, Jonathan. Well, honestly it looks like someoned egged your oud project! I can't wait to see it scraped down. It's a very rewarding part of the build, to see the bowl cleaned up and ready for the rest of the
parts. Wait until you've sanded it down and wiped on some mineral spirits. It's an exciting moment. Boy, now I'm thinking about my next oud
project......
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