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Lebanon
Oud Lover
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Jonathan what a great OUd that will be . Love it ,it looks great.The wood is real nice.the color conbination is great. Better than a Nahat....
Regards Samir California
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paulO
Oud Junkie
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Hi Jonathan,
Not like it hasn't been said before, but it looks better with every step !!  Best of luck with the face, and thanks for sharing the project with us.
Reagards...Paul
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Jonathan
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Thanks guys.
First off, for those of you celebrating Christmas today, Merry Christmas. You're a bit too early, but that's OK--Merry Christmas!
Wish I had the ability to post some pics, but, unfortunately, right now I do not.
Got the oud off of the mould. No small task, because I had carelessly let glue drip onto the mould in the beginning of the project. After several
ribs had been set up, I then covered the bulk heads with clear plastic. But, in the beginning, I screwed up, and glued the oud to the mould in a few
spots. Well, more than a few.
The good news, though, is that I got the oud off of the mould. I had to destroy the mould to do it, but I got the oud off, and it held up very
nicely. Strong, and light. I really am happy with it.
It is wider than I planned--about 3 cm altogether. Yeah, that is a big difference, I know, but I know what caused the problem, and it will not happen
with the next one.
So, now a question--
Just what does papering the inside of the oud do? I can't believe that it makes the joints stronger. I suppose applying glue along every joint does
make it stronger, but why the paper? What good does the paper itself do? Is it mostly cosmetic?
Actually, to me, it seems like it would make sense to have some supporting band (a thin piece of veneer?) running perpendicular to the length of the
ribs. When I have seen bowls fail, they tend to split open along the vertical axis, and I would think that some support/band running in the
horizontal direction would be helpful. Even, perhaps, some of that super light fiberglass mesh, covered with a thin layer of glue. Any thoughts? I
know what I am suggesting is heresy--pretty nontraditional. Just thoughts running through my head.
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Elie Riachi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
So, now a question--
Just what does papering the inside of the oud do? I can't believe that it makes the joints stronger. I suppose applying glue along every joint does
make it stronger, but why the paper? What good does the paper itself do? Is it mostly cosmetic?
......Just thoughts running through my head. |
I pondered the same Jonathan and I almost decided not to use paper at all. The more I thought about it though it seem that the paper tape provides
enforcement and here is how in my opinion: If you were to take the ribs and flatten them and lay them next to each other, you will see that they will
touch at the widest part only and gap between them will get large as you get closer to the ends. Let us say that the glued ribs naturally tend to
flatten or relax a little, in this case the glued paper tape will provide the resistive force by preventing these gaps from forming which is the same
as helping hold the ribs together in the formed shape and keeping the bowl from falling apart.
Elie
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oudmaker
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Jonathan
The paper inside the oud along the sims has following functions:
1- It gives strength to the joint. Pick a rectengular piece of paper and try to break it by pulling both along the length and along the width of it.
(Not ripping it)If you compare with any wood veneer you will see paper is much more stronger. So is the reinforcing function.
2- It gets rid of the corner of the joint. I dont know how to put it but it makes inside of the bowl much cleaner and rounder. Sound does not like
sharp corners. Some old not too good ouds has just additional glue been put that joints with some saw dust in order to echive that round shape.
3- Again veneer verses paper: It is almost imposible to have a veneer strip at the jiont because it is very hard to glue it. Paper just lays down
neatly over the joint. It is one of the few locations I use modern white glue. I use not just any paper but the paper ordinarry shopping paperbags
made from. They are much stronger, thicker and their color is much better than white paper.
Regards
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Thanks, gentleman. I papered the bowl today.
I did one more thing, and hopefully it won't cause a lot of upset.
It seems to me that when the bowl fails, the split is along the glue joint of the rib. I understand that the papering helps.
In addition (don't get angry), I used some fiberglass mesh tape. This is incredibly lightweight, and I ran 6 strips horizontally accross the back of
the bowl, tacked it down lightly with glue, and then papered in the usual fashion. It seems like it would make the back stronger, but I could be
wrong. If it does nothing, there is no harm done (I hope). It weighs almost nothing, and just required a tiny bit more glue. I will try to get a
picture of it up later.
Worked on the pegbox today. I don't have a peg reamer yet, but I have drilled some small holes where the peg holes are going. Turned out OK, I
think.
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Jameel
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Glad to hear your progress, Jonathan. Looking forward to some pics.
I haven't experienced what Elie is referring to. Once the ribs are bent, and the wood cools, the wood fibers do not "remember" their original shape.
I've bent ribs hanging around the shop (some going on 4 years) that are the same shape now as the day I bent them, not to mention some older
steam-bent furniture that hasn't returned to it's original flatness. Have you found that ribs you've bent have returned to flat, Elie? What species of
wood?
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Elie Riachi
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Jameel,
Now isn't most bent furniture made of laminates that are glued together in the bent shape (which is not how the bowl is made)? I am saying that just
in case they decide to go flat. Well actually I was giving an example which would make the point of how these paper tapes would enforce and
strengthen the bowl (but again, I guess I gave an extreme example.) So as the player straddles the oud, there could be a slight flattening force.
The strips also serve in two other situations:
- Imagine forces applied to bowl at the top edge and outwards, in this case the paper type will experience a tensile force and react to it, without
the tape, the glue joints between the ribs will experience a tensile force and react to it. With the tape the tensile strength of the joint doesn't
have to be as strong as without since the tape is contributing some enforcement here and like Mr. Dincer mentioned the tensile strength of these paper
tapes is considerable. The strain here is the largest at the ends of the ribs.
- Another situation would be the opposite of the above where the forces are trying to pull the ribs apart but inward, again paper tape comes to the
rescue with its tensile strength. In this case the strain is the largest at the widest points of the ribs.
I am with Mr. Dincer the brown paper bag looks better than the white paper tape, also when compared to using veneer, I think paper has the advantage
that the fibers are going in all directions while one would have to pay attention to the grain in the veneer; paper is most likely lighter for the
strength and much easier to work with (you'll have to bend the veneer and match the curvature of the bowl or the bowl would be stressed.) So next
time at the supermarket when asked paper or plastic? my answer will be: paper please.
Elie
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Jameel
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It does make sense for bent lamination, where the glue holds the laminates together in their shape. And with yellow glues capability of creeping, it
might be an issue. But on true steam-bent furniture, it's not the case. (oud ribs are bent using the same principle). There is plenty of steam-bent
furniture made nowadays.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi....the brown paper bag looks better than the white paper tape, ... So next time at the supermarket when
asked paper or plastic? my answer will be: paper please.
Elie |
Shopping bag paper is made from random fibers, mostly from discarded rags and contains undetermined chemicals left over from the original source of
the fiber as well as acids from the processing of the paper itself. I have found old ouds with common paper strips completely delaminated and falling
off.
Parchment is the only paper made from pure cellulose (the same as wood) and is capable of absorbing glue into the fiber - unlike rag based papers. It
is also free of any chemicals including the acids used to process common paper.
White glue is polyvinyl (plastic) and does not infuse into the material (wood or paper) but relies on surface adhesion. In addition it never cures to
a chrystalline condition (like hide glue) and is always remains flexible, and so it absorbs vibration. The use of parchment paper to reinforce wood
joints has been proven effective by guitar and lute repairs for more than a hundred years.
The use of materials like glass fiber may be good for building a boat, but is not used by any instrument making or repair process I know of. The
different coefficient of expansion/contraction of dissimilar materials should be carefully considered due to the fragile structure of the oud. A
material too dissimilar could damage the oud simply by expanding or contracting faster or more than the wood.
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Wish I could post some pics, but I am having some software problems. My Photoshop is not working somehow, and I don't have any other way to shrink
the photos for the forum. One way or another, I will have pics up in about a week.
Bowl papered. Neck mounted. Peg box done but not reamed, and not yet mounted to neck. Made the bridge. I have the week off, so I am getting a lot
done.
The bowl really did take on some weight when I papered it. I didn't think I was using that much glue, but I guess I must have.
Anyhow, it is what it is.
The thing is, the oud really fits the category of an Arabic oud rather than a Turkish oud, because, like I said, it ended up a bit bigger than I had
planned. Any idea how much an Arabic oud is supposed to weigh? I really don't know. I do know that they are significantly heavier than the typical
Turkish oud.
Any thought on the utility of carving some wood out of the neck block? Is there any advantage to this other than cutting out some weight? I don't
mind doing it if it gets rid of a few ounces, unless you guys tell me it is going to cause problems. I would also hate to inadvertently crack the
neck block.
Hopefully, pictures in a week or so.
Again, guys, thanks a lot!
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Jameel
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Glad to hear things are going well. But your killing us with no photos! 
Get that software going my man. There is a bit of crossover I think between ouds Turkish vs. Arabic. Especially with Syrian ouds, they tend to be
smaller than say, Egyptian ouds, but that's not a rule. Some of Gameel George's ouds are rather smallish for Egyptian, others large. Same with Nahats.
It's really the scale length and tuning difference that make it Turkish, at least to me. When I showed oud No. 002 to Simon Shaheen he immediately
lofted it slightly into the air (like you do with something you're testing the weight of) and said "khafeef!, nice". This oud is as light as any
Turkish oud I've handled, and way lighter than typical arabic ouds. My Sukar feels like a tank. You know how light no. 001 is. But you've got me
thinking, I'm going to weigh this oud and get back to you about it. Maybe Dincer can chime in on carving out the neck block. I don't think it's a
typical Nahat feature (not really sure), but I've noticed it on Turkish ouds for sure. I'm really excited to see the finished oud. I have a feeling it
is going to sound great.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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Oud Weights
Khalaf Oud No. 002
1 lb. 15oz. / .88 Kilos
Ibrahim Sukar
2 lb. 13 oz. / 1.28 Kilos
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Jameel. I think I just need to go over the bowl one more time and sand it down a bit more. The ribs are still about 2.4 mm--just too thick.
I will go back to the 60 grit in the morning, and try to get a bit more off, and work my way back up to 220. That will take some of the weight off.
I don't think I will be too far off--and I really would like to trim a bit of that neck block off, if nobody raises any objections.
I used maple for the neck. I know it is a bit heavy. But, strong. And, I used an ebony stringer down the middle, with an eighth of an inch strip of
lacewood on each side of the ebony. I know I could have gone with a lighter wood, but I wanted the colors on the bowl (maple, lacewood, and black
purfling) to follow through on the neck. Looks good, but it cost me some ounces.
Found an old, crude, handmade bookcase, covered with some cruddy contact paper. Has to be at least 30 years old, maybe more. I swear, though, it
looks like spruce under that contact paper. Again, I will have to post some pics. Might try to use it for the face or, at the very least, the
braces. That's the part that is scaring me a bit, and is going to take me a long, long time--I just want that to be perfect. Of course, absolutely
nothing has been perfect so far, but I swear I am going to try to do a good job on that.
Oh, the bridge, I guess. So far, that's the only thing that really turned out like I wanted. Pictures Monday, I hope.
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oudmaker
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Most of ouds that I saw by known Turkish oudmakers have the neck blok carved to some degree. Manol and Onnik included.
I carve the block not becouse of the weight reduction but regardless how small it will be, to add some volume to the air inside the bowl. I do not
touch below the neck dove-tail area. Never had a problem.
Jonattan:
To use maple for neck which is relatively hard wood is not a good choice. Hard woods are intend to deform more than softh woods. The reason is most of
the hard wood do not have straight grain which I think couses the to deform under bending forces. Make a experiment Have a strip of soft wood say
spruce with straight grain perpendicular to the bending plane and try to bend it even by heat and compare any hard or semihard wood of same size and
shape. You will see spruce has much more resistans against bending.
I use spruce for the neck. Also it is lighter.
Regards and a very Happy New Year to all.
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Dincer. I saw the photographs of the neck block on your website, and I will try to take out a similar amount.
I appreciate the information on the neck. Unfortunately, it is mounted, and at this point, I think I will leave it there.
I have learned so much building this oud. Sadly, I have learned it through mistakes.
I am at a point now where I can't wait to start my next oud, simply because I know I can do it much better.
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Jonathan
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.
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Jonathan
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Ah, I think I figured out how to shrink photos using Picassa. Cool. Now I can add some pics. Above, the bridge. Mahogany, with tiny sliver of
maple between 2 slivers of ebony. I like how it turned out. Still have to drill the holes in it, and shine it up a bit. But, I really like it.
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Jonathan
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Peg box.
The scrolling top is lacewood and maple sandwiched together. Kind of a copy of a picture of one of Dincer's scrolls that I saw (maybe Lee's?). Of
course, not done nearly as well. But, I really like the look, and the scrolling top of the peg box typical of Turkish ouds. Holes not reamed yet.
The back of the peg box just has layers of maple and pearwood (I think) next to each other. Should have stuck with lacewood and maple--I don't know
why I switched. Still, I think it has a nice, graceful line to it.
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Jonathan
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The neck. I know, the papering is a bit sloppy. I will have to clean it up. I used Doc's stringer method. Next to the ebony are two fine strips of
lacewood. Can't see it too much here, and of course this will end up getting covered up by the ebony fingerboard. But, it looks nice on the back
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Jameel
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Nice pics, Jonathan. I think though that your comment about sadly learning through mistakes is wrong. Making mistakes is the best way to learn (short
of studying under a master, which also involves mistakes), without a doubt. If you know what can go wrong, you can make sure you do it right.
Which direction is the grain on those pieces you used for the back of the pegbox? It looks perpendicular to the length of the pegbox.
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Jonathan
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It is Jameel. Is that bad? I figured that that really was just decorative--I don't think that there is much strain on there at all. Or, am I wrong?
If so, I can change it without too much difficulty (I think).
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Jonathan
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Peg box is not yet on, but I thought I would get a rough idea of what it will look like on the oud.
You can see I should have made a template when I put the tail cover on, to avoid getting glue on the area that I already sanded. That's going to be
tough to get off now, but I will get it done. Also, a small area of glue on the side that I have to remove.
For some reason, this photo makes it look as though the neck is pitched up, but it is not.
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oudmaker
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I like the RUG!!
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Jonathan
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Thanks. Me, too. Hereke.
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