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Jameel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
It is Jameel. Is that bad? I figured that that really was just decorative--I don't think that there is much strain on there at all. Or, am I wrong?
If so, I can change it without too much difficulty (I think). |
I don't think it's bad. But that is not the best way to orient the grain. And I think for the pegbox one single piece of wood there is best. I've seen
lutes with this piece pretty-much carved away, so it may not be totally necessary, but I wouldn't want to try it without it. The pegbox gets the brunt
of handling stress when tuning, and over time an absent or weakened back might cause some premature wear. Just my theory.
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Jonathan
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I've got a problem that is driving me crazy, and I hope somebody can help me.
I have followed the good doctor's advice--the bowl was sanded down, the edges made with the dip, everything according to plan. I mounted the neck,
clamped it, and thought all was going well, until I realized that, contrary to what I wrote above, the neck is pitched up slightly. Must have
happened when I clamped it. Too much force, I don't know.
So, I used the sander, and tried to fix things on the neck so that the pitch is correct, but I really can't do too much there--the notch for the peg
box has been cut, and I really don't have a lot of room.
So, I guess my question is, when the oud is lying flat, should the neck lie in the same plane as the body of the oud? My guess is that it should and
that, once strings are in place, there will be some slight inward bowing of the neck.
Now what? I guess I could remove the neck. Yeesh. I will end up destroying everything. If I sawed it off, I guess I would have to build a new one.
Not that big of a deal in the long run, but is there a simpler way? I could make some adjustments with the ebony fingerboard, I suppose, making it
just a tiny bit higher as it nears the neck block.
I will try to post some pics so this is clear.
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Jonathan
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I don't know how clear this picture is, but, when the oud (with the neck) is lying flat, there is a 1/4 inch gap between the table and the oud at the
junction of the neck to the block.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | | Originally posted by Jonathan...when the oud is lying flat, should the neck lie in the same plane as the body of the oud? ....Now what?....
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The fingerboard surface of the neck should be set back 2mm from the plane of the body blocks. This means that if you put a straight edge across the
tail and neck blocks, the top end of the neck should have a 2mm gap. This will provide the optimum string action when the oud is first strung, and
allow for some adjustment of the string loops. It also allows for some adjust over time as the oud bends under the string tension. The current
condition of your oud will make the action too high to play.
You have 2 options:
1- Remove, and remount the neck.
2- Trim down the tail block to get the 2mm set back.
A tapered fingerboard on top of the face will require the bridge to be higher than normal and may be too much for the glue joint as the bridge's
moment arm is increased - not a preferable choice.
Next time use hide glue to mount then neck so you can dismantle it later with warm water, hot knifes and/or steam. Using hide glue will also obviate
the use of clamps. If the glue joint is well fitted the oud can be positioned so the neck is vertical and the glue will set without using clamps. Only
hide glue can be applied in this manner.
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Jameel
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Too bad, Jonathan. This is a critical step and it seems something bad happened. Not to worry. I had the same problem, only the opposite, on No. 002.
(The neck was set back too far, and I had to put a tapered fingerboard to raise the action. See pics of the oud and you can clearly see the edge tiles
are thicker toward the nut.) Follow Richard's advice. Specifically, trim down the tail block. You'll lose a bit of back depth, but it sure beats
re-doing the entire neck.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys.
I am going to try to remove the neck with some heat, hopefully not destroying all of the other joints at the neck block in the process. I tried with
just a hair dryer without success, but tomorrow I will get more aggressive.
I really appreciate the help. I think I got careless with those clamps when I was setting the neck.
I think I would have to trim too much off of the tail to make this right.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
A tapered fingerboard on top of the face will require the bridge to be higher than normal and may be too much for the glue joint as the bridge's
moment arm is increased - not a preferable choice.
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But if the glue joint can take it it'll make the oud louder, no?
By the way Doc, what do you recommend using for paper tape without all the unknown chemicals if one wants darker colors such as brown, tan or black?
Would brown mailing paper be as good as parchment paper or is the same as brown paper bags?
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Jonathan
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OK, it's off. I could not remove it intact. The tite-bond did hold it well, and that stringer method of yours really does give a nice tite joint
there, Doc. So, I sawed it off, and had to saw off the remnants of the stringer.
Fine with me. I wasn't that happy with the neck. Too heavy. Tomorrow, hopefully, I will be able to get some mahogany and more ebony. Or, if I can
find some decent older spruce, I will use Dincer's suggestion.
I really hate it when the action is high, and I know that if that was the case, I just would not play this oud.
Thanks again, guys. I am glad it's off.
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Jonathan
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So, Doc, just to clarify--
At this point, when I mount the neck, it will be set back 2mm, but still the neck will be completely flat.
Then, at the end, when I add the ebony fingerboard, that 2mm disappears, right?
Or, are you saying that, when the ebony is on, the top of the fingerboard still goes back 2 mm at the top?
Sorry, I know this must seem obvious, but I just have to make sure.
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SamirCanada
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It is a question I had about seting the neck when I did my oud fixing. I made you a little diagram to visualise why it has to be setback. I didnt
understand why it wasnt strait but its much clearer now. Because the brige is elevated you need the neck to be perpendicular with the strings not with
the face. Your nut should be around 1mm high and depending on the hight of the holes in your brige ( also depending on how you will tie your strings
high loops or low loops but I think the Doc is advising you to keep yourself some room to play with that to fine tune the action) It will determine
exactly how much setback will be needed. But you should aim for that 2mm.
Iam extremely impressed by your work and your determination Jonathan. Hopefully this was of any help even tho there are far more knowlegable people
here. And above all Iam enjoying this thread a lot. Keep it tight Jonathan and good luck.
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Jonathan
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That makes it very clear. Thank you.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi...But if the glue joint can take it it'll make the oud louder, no?
By the way Doc, what do you recommend using for paper tape without all the unknown chemicals if one wants darker colors such as brown, tan or black?
Would brown mailing paper be as good as parchment paper or is the same as brown paper bags? |
A higher bridge would provide more torque on the face and probably produce more volume, but I don't know what the result would sound like. The only
experience I have with very high bridges is a delaminated glue joint, or if the glue holds, a big hole in the face - not worth the risk in my
opinion.
Parchment is the only paper made with pure cellulose, everything else has some rag content (according to my art paper expert). The key characteristic
of parchment is it's ability to absorb hot hide glue into the fibers making a much stronger material of infused fiber. It does come in colors as I
found a pad of different colored sheets, but I got a pad of yellow for about $7. Larger sheets are available, but cost much more per sq inch, so I
decided to overlap the ends to make the span.
Samir has explained the setback most effectively - good job!
Spruce is used in a neck covered with veneer. The surface of spruce is too soft to resist the wear of your left hand. Spruce will bend as well anyway,
as it is the lamination of the veneers that adds stiffness. They act like an exoskeleton in the same way as the stringer adds stiffness as an
endosketal component. Mahogany and maple are woods used for necks on many instruments, and I don't believe there's a big difference in weight over a
spruce core neck so much that you would notice it (after you add the veneer and glue). Weight matters in the face construction, anywhere else it is an
affectation.
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Jonathan
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I am going to use mahogany for the neck this time, with a rosewood stringer.
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Jonathan
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Made another neck, and threw that one out, too.
The trouble is with the neck block--I made it a bit too big. I like a thin neck--easier for me to play.
So, I made a 1/4 inch band of lacewood, added it to the top of the neck block, and sanded it to shape so that it blended with the surrounding bowl.
Workied really well, and it looks good. Now, I can make a more traditional looking neck, rather than the sloping one I had above. My vacation is
over, though, so I know I will not get too much done on the oud for a while.
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Jonathan
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I hate traveling with an oud. Hate it.
I just returned from a one week vacation out of state--I took my oud project with me to get some work done. I had a nice hard case, though, and
wasn't too worried. I checked it in for my return flight this AM, and, of course, there was a problem.
Security obviously openned up the case, because half of the latches were undone. And my guess is that they picked up the oud and dropped it, because
the result is shown below.
And it was obviously taken out of its case, because the missing piece is nowhere to be found.
I really don't feel like taking that rib off. I may end up just sanding everything down 3/8 of an inch--that will likely take care of it. Not sure.
Gotta get away from it for a while.
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Jameel
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Nooooooooooo!!!!!!!! That really stinks. I feel for you. I would have raised absolute hell with the airline. You should, and you should demand some
compensation. Look on the bright side. It's not one of your old Varjabedians, or Karybians. It could be worse......still sucks though. Make sure there
aren't cracks anywhere else. The force required to take out that chunk could very well have damaged the bowl elsewhere. I'm pulling for you, Jonathan.
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Jonathan
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The only good thing is that the glue joints held. I feel good about that.
On second thought, I am not sure that the sanding down approach will work. I might have to tough it out, and replace that rib. Not looking forward
to it.
The other thing, though, is that it reinforces to me not to ever use lacewood again--I think the stuff is prone to cracking. I have seen it used on
two ouds in the past, though, and the results were great.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Man this really stinks. I would raise hell with the airline and demand a compensation from them at least for the time you spent making and assembling
the rib, the labor to remove it, the time for making and assembling a new one and the cost for the raw material used wood, glue etc. I know that I
will start putting a sticker on the case which reads "Delicate Musical Instrument - HANDLE WITH CARE"
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Jonathan
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I just don't see why it got manhandled. Just something they never saw before, I guess.
I wish there was a way to repair it without taking that rib off. I don't want to sand it down, because I will lose some depth and, perhaps,
volume.
If I could figure out a way to put something decorative there, and not have it look strange, I would.
In the end, though, I know I will end up replacing it.
In the meantime, I am working on the rest of the oud (I am now on neck number 3), and I will leave that part for a little while.
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oudmaker
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Patch it Jonathan. Just patch it!! Cut the damaged area to have beveled edges than insert a piece of same wood to fitted to the same bevel with a same
curvature and glue it. Clean it. You just perform a restoration job which is called wood surgery in our craft. Go ahead do it. Do you know it takes
more craftsmanship to restore an instrument then make it? Here is your chance!! Good luck
Dincer
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Dincer. That's all I needed.
I will patch it.
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Jonathan
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I am getting ahead of myself a bit, but do you guys recommend German spruce? I know it is used a lot. I don't want Sitka spruce, do I? Just going
through the lmii list.
Again, thanks!
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Jonathan
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I want to start working on the rosettes and the purfling that I am going to put around them. At first, I was going to go for that traditional Turkish
ebony (or at least black wood) bands surrounding the rosettes. But, as I noted earlier, the body of the instrument is a bit wider than I had planned
on, and I think I may go ahead and used the tiled edge purfling around the rosettes and around the face.
I looked at Jameels website, again and again, and then again, and still marvel at how meticulous he was, and how good the purfling came out. Just
brilliant. After cutting and trimming the small pieces of purfling, he then laid them into a chanel that he superficially cut on the face, and it
turned out incredible.
Is there another way to do this? I was wondering if it would be possible to somehow lay out the purfling, and glue it all together, perhaps using
some sort of circular guide/template, and then removing the template at the end and inserting the circle of purfling into the face. My fear, of
course, is that it would all collapse when transfering it to the face, but I think I could do it without breaking it.
I am also interested in anybody's thoughts on rosette material, keeping in mind that I really have no experience with cutting something like this. I
was thinking of using wood (maple?). I ruled out bone, because at this stage of the game I think it will be too difficult for me. Unlike some
people, I really have no problems with synthetic material/plastics. I have seen some old ouds with a primitive plastic (bakelite, maybe?) that just
looked great. I have also heard mircada (sp?) mentioned, but I confess that I have no idea what it is.
Thanks!
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
....I am also interested in anybody's thoughts on rosette material, keeping in mind that I really have no experience with cutting something like this.
.....
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Hi Jonathan,
Check out this thread http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=862#pid6023
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Jameel
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Richard has a method for doing a tile rosette (I call the ring around the sound hole the rosette, ala guitar, and the "shams" the rose) outside, then
gluing in the channel. He's shown me pics before, maybe he'll post them.
Micarta is a compressed paper-based material that you can get from knife suppliers. Najarian's roses look pretty nice and they are micarta. If you
ask him where he gets his, and what color/type he uses, I would be very interested. Try Jantz supply or Masecraft. Both have websites. You can also
get some nice bone slabs from these places.
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