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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
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Location: new jersey/ Israel
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hey jon
wow man you are working really hard anfd its looking really nice
thx sammy
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys.
Jameel, you are right--the rosettes ought to be that ring outside of the shams, like guitar terminology. Confusing.
Made the third neck, and this one turned out OK. Mahogany, with a 1/4 inch ebony stringer, and a couple of bands of wenge in there for looks.
Saved me a heck of a lot of weight over the maple that I had on there earlier. And, like I mentioned, I put a "cap" of lacewood/maple over the neck
block to effectively make the neck block smaller. This let me make a more traditional neck.
I like it, and this time the angle is much better. There really isn't a significant drop this time--I did not get that 2mm that I was aiming for.
Instead, it is pretty much flat. I am happy with that and, if necessary, I can alway sand it down a bit to achieve that 1 or 2 mm drop.
The problem is with the clamping--it is tough to get those clamps to run in the exact same plane as the neck, so you get a little "pull", I guess.
Going to order the face and braces tomorrow, I hope.
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Jonathan
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I guess I never put a picture up of the tail cover. Not exactly traditional, and it's kind of big, I know. But I'm a newbie at this and, like said
before, if it was significantly smaller, it would have been too obvious that the ribs were different sizes. You can see that I should have masked the
area around the cover, because there is still some glue there that I have to scrape off.
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Jameel
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Neat, Jonathan. I can't wait to add it to the IOD (Internet Oud Database). This is definitely going to be a unique oud. I bet you already have the
next one in the works. Be extra diligent with the face and bracing. I guarantee that if this oud ends up playing and sounding great, all the little
visual discrepancies will be the farthest thing from your mind.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Jameel. I just wanted to draw the eyes away from the ends of the ribs, so I put that little round thing in the center of the tail cover. I
think it does the job.
So far, there has only been one thing on this oud that turned out exactly as I had planned--the peg box cap!
I am going to spend a lot of time on the face and braces. I don't care how long it takes, I really want to get that as perfect as possible.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan--I did not get that 2mm that I was aiming for. Instead, it is pretty much flat. I am happy with that and, if
necessary, I can alway sand it down a bit to achieve that 1 or 2 mm drop.
The problem is with the clamping--it is tough to get those clamps to run in the exact same plane as the neck, so you get a little "pull", I guess.
... |
A flat alignment will work especially if you relieve the face for string clearance. The 2mm is for super low action and future adjustment. I'd be
cautious about sanding the neck down to get the action as it can weaken the peg box notch unless the stringer is continuous through the peg box.
Yea, neck clamping is tricky - you need to check the alignment as soon as you put the pressure on the clamp to be sure it isn't pulling the neck over
too much. If you use hide glue and make the neck/block joint fit really well you don't need to clamp it at all. Hide glue will pull the joint together
as it cures, so you just push it together and prop the oud upright so the neck doesn't fall off while the glue sets. Try it next time, and there will
be a next time, I'm sure. BTW - I think your peg box rear wall looks fine. I don't think there's much strength difference with a continuous piece and
many oud peg boxes I've seen use a piece of veneer with not much strength anyway. Yours is a clever use of those pieces of scrap we end up with that
are too expensive to throw away, but don't seem fit anywhere - I've got boxes full of them.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Doc. The one thing I think I have learned is never to throw out any scrap. This woodworking stuff is new to me, but the idea of salvaging
pieces of wood for new projects is pretty satisfying.
Yeah, there is a next time. I am working on a new mould now, and I cut up the wood for the bowl already.
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Jonathan
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A couple of questions about the shams
If I were to use plastic, does anybody have any suggestions? I know some of you might shudder, but I really have no problem using it, or some other
synthetic material. It is lightweight, and there are a lot of great ouds that have used them.
Also, if I were to use wood, any suggestions on what wood type I should use? I want to keep it light, of course. I thought mahogany might be a
decent choice, but I really do not know.
My braces and face tonewood are going to show up on the 16th--I can't wait. Hopefully, this weekend, I will start to be able to really draw out the
brace positions and think about brace patterns/rose positions.
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mavrothis
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Hi Jonathan,
Walnut is a nice light wood, and I've heard it's easy to stain/paint, so you can alter the color as you wish.
Great to see all your progress Jonathan, your creativity and dedication are very inspiring.
Take care,
mavrothis
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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You can try micarta, or any of the imitation ivory that knife-makers sell. The plastic roses I've seen have all been molded, and from a soft plastic
that would not lend itself to cutting. You need a somewhat brittle material so you can cut it crisply. I'm thinking maybe phenolic might be a good
choice too, but it's like micarta. Here's a link for Micarta. I would ask Najarian where he gets his. I'd be interested to know, if you do find
out.
http://www.texasknife.com/store/s-pages/TKS_7HandleMat-1.htm#micart...
If you go with wood, the aircraft plywood from the hobby shop is best to cut. No short grain areas. You could always stain it dark if you want a dark
rose. Or leave it natural. That's what I used on my 1st oud. I also have a big chunk of corian that's very white. I haven't cut it yet. You could get
some from a countertop manufacturer. They would probably give you scrap for free.
Good luck with the face. I'm rooting for you.
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Jonathan
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Thanks, Mav and Jameel. I am going to go ahead and order some of the ivory mircata today. A little pricey, but it may be worth it. I will give you
guys details when I get it. I appreciate the link.
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sydney
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Shamsaya
Hi Jonathan
Have you thought of laser cutting? It will work for both wood and plastics. so maybe you can think of using wood and spend some money on laser
cutting. You will get a very easy/fast/good/accurate look depends on your design of course.
I think you will need to stain the wood before cutting to make your life easy.
Good luck
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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It is easier to stain before cutting but I am not certain that it is the best sequence with laser cutting since the stain will probably char at the
cut edges, but this may also produce an interesting look. One just has to experiment. I posted a link on laser cutting and the cutter should be able
to give recommendation regarding staining before or after, they were very easy to work with them, fast and reasonable on cost.
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sydney
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Laser cutting
Hi Elie 
How are you mate?
If the wood is stained in matt not gloss then nothing will go wrong at all.
With laser cutting thin wood, gets cut with low power roughly 400 - 600 watts/high speed/high pressure air.
The only thing to say here is that the thickness will be dark brown after cutting. Maybe or maybe not this will be a problem for you Jonathan.
I have worked as a laser cutter for 6 years.
Other simillar option to used is Water Jet Cutting.
Nothing will ever happen to your material (stained or not) no matter what it is as long as you clamp it between two thin layers of plastic or even
Aluminium to protect weak spots.
Again .. a high speed is used for this and over 35 PSI of water presure.
Good luck
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys, for the advice. This time, I think I am going to cut it the traditional way, although I may consider that laser cutting in the
future.
I am waiting for the mircata--I have no idea if this stuff will work or not, but I thought I would give it a shot. There are different
formulations--I bought the paper-based one. I will give you more details when I get to that part.
Has anybody used a scroll saw for cutting the shams? Or is a jeweler's saw the way to go?
Now, on to the face, and braces.
Like I have mentioned before, the oud came out a bit wider than I wanted. Still, the length is the same, and the depth is the same.
Length is 19 inches, and maximum width is 15 1/2 inches. Actually, I should have deducted about 1/4 of an inch, to make up for the width of the
marker that I was using.
So, even though it is wider, I think I am going to still go with Karibyan's placements of the roses. The base of the small roses is approximately 7
inches from the base of the oud, and the base of the large one is approximately 9 3/4 inches from the base of the oud.
As far as the braces--I am going with 7 unless somebody tells me otherwise. If we start the numbering at the top, then it seems like braces 2, 3, 4,
and 5 have clear spaces where they are supposed to go. 2 is on top of the large sham, 3 is in the middle of it, 4 is at the bottom of it, and 5 is at
the base of the small eyuns.
Any tips on where to place 1, 6, and 7?
While we are at it, just what is the function of the braces? It's not just to support the face, is it? It also transmits vibrations to the bowl.
So, I assume that a nice junction between the braces and the bowl is of the utmost importance (I am definitely going to be using hide glue here). Is
that bottom brace supposed to be angled at all, or does it run paralell with the other braces?
Any thoughts are appreciated.
I got a little sloppy with the sketch, but you get the idea.
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Jonathan
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Looking at Dincer's website, it looks like he might put 2 small braces running between braces 6 and 7, and possibly between 1 and 2.
One last thing--does anybody know anything about Titebound hide glue? It is ready mixed, and seems like it would be easy to use.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Hello Emad,
I am fine thank you. That is great that you were a laser cutter bud and helpful to know that the heat doesn't smoke the stain. I used laser cutting
on the roses that I designed and cut them out of aircraft ply, unstained. Next time I am thinking of painting them some ivory color.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Hi Jonathan,
I read somewhere serious advice to avoid using the already mixed hide glue.
You ask a very good question regarding the braces. Here is how I understand the function of the braces: The traverse braces orientation strengthens
the soundboard against the tension force from the strings. This complements the strength provided by the grain of the sound board which runs
longitudinal. The lighter and stronger the soundboard the better, this means that the braces should be stout enough to provide the soundboard with
needed strength but not too stout to weigh it down.
The placement of the braces is also important. For example a brace should not be directly under the bridge. Also, the locations of the braces play a
big role in the voice of the Oud since each location will be where anti-nodes of certain frequencies will be and muting them while at the same time
permitting other frequencies which have nodes at these locations. Also each brace will have a fundamental frequency and will resonate at the
harmonics (integer multiples) of it, therefore enforcing these frequencies. I was told that some luthier perfected the top of a violin, where they
made one to resonate at most frequencies almost equally. People didn't like it and that is because it didn't sound like what they are used to a
violin should sound like (some frequencies weakened while others enforced.)
My guess is that it takes experimenting by the making of several ouds with different brace placement and size and listening to them to get the one
with the board which is pleasantly tuned, once that has been found then the luthier "sort of" has the recipe. So I think it would be easier to copy
some known-to-work pattern, it will not be perfect however (since it requires the fine tuning that the masters have discovered) but sure beats
starting from scratch.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
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I put a bit more space between the braces around the bridge. Check the photo. This is the Jubran oud. On Khalaf 002 I also shaved brace #3 (from the
bottom) down to about 1/4" high at the middle for about 6" wide. Unless you are copying exactly an existing bracing pattern, you are basically
experimenting. Nothing wrong with that, it's a great way to learn.
As for the rose, check around page 8 at my thread "My Latest Oud" and you'll see a video of my cutting the rose with my trusty scroll saw w/ jeweler's
blade.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jameel
I put a bit more space between the braces around the bridge. Check the photo. This is the Jubran oud. ... |
Hi Jameel,
Can you comment on what kind of an effect this has made?
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Jonathan
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Thanks, guys. It seems that there would be some sort of mathematical formula for ideal placement of the braces.
On ebay there are some mother of pearl laminate sheets--would mop be too brittle for the shams?
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Thanks, guys. It seems that there would be some sort of mathematical formula for ideal placement of the braces.
On ebay there are some mother of pearl laminate sheets--would mop be too brittle for the shams? |
Mathmatical formulas usually assume homogenous materials and finite shapes, neither of which are present in an oud's structure. The soundboard is made
of variable material and the body is an exponential shape. I have measured many oud's braces and have not found a consitant pattern. If your oud is
built to a known design, use the pattern that maker used. If your body is unique, you're own your own.
MOP is very brittle, so if you cut it in thin lines for a rose it would probably break unless it is laminated on a stable piece of wood. The Nahat
roses cut in bone are laminated on a piece of hardwood about 1/4 inch thick.
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Jonathan
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Seems like good advice. There just seems to be an awful lot of variability in brace patterns.
I notice that in the link that Mav just posted
http://www.eliotbates.com/blog/?p=5
there the bottom brace is slanted, too.
I got my spruce yesterday from lmii. Beautiful, beautiful. Still haven't joined it or done much of anything else on it.
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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
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Jonathan,
You are right about the variations, but like Doc said If you're not copying exactly, then you're on your own. You may have to experiment, if you have
the time, resources and money. The bottom brace in the link you posted is slanted to make the area around the bridge wider near the bass end of the
bridge, this seems logical and I wonder if this is really effective in enhancing the lower frequencies, which would make sense.
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Hank Levin
Oud Maniac
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Location: Medford, Oregon
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Bracing
Jonathan--
I suggest you use the bracing and spacing in this photo. You know what it is. It's probably the best bracing in the world. I don't have the exact
dimensions---you'll have to estimate the heights from the junk on the bench in the photo. The thickness of most is around 5.5 mm. Note the small size
of the brace just under the small soundholes.
Make sure the grain is perpendicular to the face.
BTW, these braces are MUCH smaller than those shown in the earlier posting.
Face should be about 1.7-2.0 mm. It's really hard to keep it to that tolerance, so I'd consider getting or making some kind of beam (deep-throat)
caliper.
Fondly,
Hank
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