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Elie Riachi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 582
Registered: 4-9-2004
Location: Kansas
Member Is Offline
Mood: Gebran Tueni Lives For Ever, 12-12-05.
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Hi Jameel,
I watched all three shows you mentioned. I like the two ends of the spectrum but the middle one, I never caught on. When I likened you to Norm, I
meant in terms of your preference to using power tools and building jigs to achieve exact cuts and tightly fitting pieces which would increase
repeatability. Norm's work is as clean, exact, detailed and uniform as yours while preserving the historical correctness of the work. I have seen
Norm use hand tools from time to time. I think using modern techniques and tools in building the oud is innovative and may just push the instrument
to its fullest potential.
Just look at these Syrian tourist ouds, a close inspection reveals how sloppy the work is and they probably used improperly set up power tools. We
all have experienced hand fitted tuning pegs which will not stay in tune, why not use a peg shaver and achieve perfect results in shorter time?
As for the price of the oud assuming that one likes the sound and the way it handles and action and given the inlay work, it should be compatible with
the prices other reputable makers are asking. This wouldn't be bad moonlighting activity. Maybe you could start making guitars also!
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LeeVaris
Oud Junkie
Posts: 379
Registered: 12-16-2003
Location: Los Angeles
Member Is Offline
Mood: oud lover
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Price for Quality
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jameel
A few conditions first. Say this oud turns out sounding nice. Not exceptional, but a good, professional-sounding arabic oud that any good player,
professional or otherwise would be happy to own and play. And given that you've seen 95% of the complete instrument (fingerboard is all that's left,
and it will be inlayed), and pretend for a moment that I'm an established oud maker, what do you think, or rather, what would you be willing to pay
for it? I want your unvarnished opinion, be honest, realistic. Since I don't make ouds professionally, and don't have a reputation, I won't be
insulted or offended. Heck, I might even be surprised. 
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Well... it seems that, realistically, the best price one could get for a high-quality instrument today is in the neighborhood of $2,000-$2500 in the
US - you really should be able to get more like $4000-$5000 but the demand just isn't there for those rates. Well known builders in the middle east
routinely sell quality instruments for $600-$800 and even with shipping and a hard case you can get instruments for under $1500. First rate
instruments from Turkey are a bit more expensive but still under the upper limit mentioned before. Still, it seems that most (barring the exceptional
deal) ouds that are of the very highest quality sound wise and utilize high quality materials like bone nuts, ebony fingerboards, ebony pegs and aged
spruce faces are going to end up costing at least $2000.
I would gladly pay that kind of money for your ouds - unfortunately I can'y really afford to pay much more than that (secretly saving up for one of
the Doctors ridiculously underpriced ouds)!
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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Mood: No Mood
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Jameel--you do not have to be competitive. You have one oud here. You have poured your heart and soul into it, and have created what will be a very
nice instrument. You have said that it will be a long time before you start another oud, and, once you start, how long will it take for the next oud
to be made? Another year? So, we are looking at 2007 before we are going to see another of your ouds.
You have taken your time with building this oud, so I hope you don't rush the next step--the sale.
I love this interview with Kyvelos:
http://www.nea.gov/honors/heritage/Heritage01/Kyvelos2.html
He talks about how most of the ouds he made sold for less than $1000, and that with those ouds he made about 65 cents per hour. At the time of the
interview, though, he stated that he had raised his price to $4000. Were they selling? No. But screw it, he made a good product, he knew it, and
that was the price. Good for him.
So figure out how much you spent on this oud. For the materials. Then, be realistic and figure out how many hours you put into it. 200? More? I
am sure that the figure is high.
Then, come up with the price. But the kid at McDonald's can't make a masterpiece, and so your compensation should not be the same as his.
And what is the worst that can happen if you put a price on it that others perceive as being too high? It doesn't sell right away. So what? You
live with your beautiful oud, and admire the work that you have done.
There will always be a place for $200 ouds. The world needs assembly line ouds. Not all ouds are underpriced. Some ouds are worth exactly what they
sell for.
But the true craftsmen should not be obligated to compete with them. It is silly. And yes, we are blessed with some brilliant makers of the oud.
Some of them are members of this site. You are not competing with them, either. You are making your oud, and they are making theirs. If you want a
Renoir, you pay the price for the Renoir. The price of a Matisse is the price of a Matisse. One is not necessarily better than the other. It is
just how it is.
All you want is one customer. The one customer who appreciates your oud, and the work you have done, and is willing to pay the price. You don't want
somebody else to have your oud, anyway.
And by the way, that shamsiya is absolutely brilliant.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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You've all written some very insightful comments that have caused some serious inner reflection. I deeply appreciate your time and effort in
expressing your sincere thoughts. To clarify, I'm not considering selling this oud just yet. I was simply curious about the price. In fact, the more
this oud comes together, the more I enjoy it, regardless of it's sound (obvioulsy). I'm reminded why I built it. To date, the only oud I personally
have bought was a broken Sukar for $175 which I repaired and now play. I have no other oud. Ideally, I'd like to own an old Nahat that's in excellent
shape, and is very tastefully decorated, and of course sounds great. I realized a while ago that this was pretty remote. So, I decided I would try my
best to make an oud that captured the Nahat spirit, and hopefully a semblance of the sound. So far, this project has achieved that for me. The members
of this forum, specifically the ones who have taken the time to reply to this thread have played a huge part in the construction of this instrument,
and I thank you again for it. You've given me more motivation than I would normally have, and your feedback has been very rewarding. I hope that what
I have posted here has been as enjoyable for you as building this oud has been for me. 
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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Edge Tiles
Finished up the edge tiles. The tool I used to cut the edge I purchased from Lee Valley. It sure beats that little plastic thing I used before. And
it's pretty inexpensive too. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=50440&cat=1,4...
I reground one of the blades so it's shaped like a V, so it cuts both directions, and flat on one side, so it cuts square on the edge of the
soundboard.
I also had to add a little inlay at the base of the face. After I glued the top on, the center joint opened up about 2cm from the bottom. So this
inlay not only covers this, but it also reinforces it.
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palestine48
Oud Junkie
Posts: 448
Registered: 6-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Free Palestine
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Jameel can you do a short video on how you are doing the inlays. Im amazed and somewhat perplexed by the work. I get the idea but it feels so
surreal. I wish my hands were as delicate.
Thanks,
Rami
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
Registered: 6-5-2003
Location: NJ/NYC
Member Is Offline
Mood: big band envy
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Jameel,
This oud is really spectacular!!! I'm so blown away everytime I see your work and how passionate you are about your techniques...it's true art
Jameel, if you do decide to sell this oud, I think you have two things to consider. The first, and most important I think, is will this oud be played
with the love you've put into building it? Second, is the price fair in your mind (regardless of what prices others sell their instruments at)?
I almost bought a lavta from my friend Dimitris this summer, which he said was probably the best he'd ever made (and he makes really great lavtas).
But I hesitated b/c it's a totally different instrument, and when he saw my hesitation, he didn't think twice about telling me not to take it, to
order an oud instead. Why should his beautiful work go to waste? Neither should yours. I say either keep this oud for yourself, or sell it to a
player who will love it and play the heck out of it. 
Thanks again for sharing all your great work and imagination!
mav
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2924
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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Jameel, I just wanted to add my voice to the chorus of admirers; your work is really beautiful. I can't imagine how impatient you must be to finish
it; I think we're all impatient to see and hear the final product.
About selling it; I think Jonathan and Mav have the right idea. This is a unique instrument and as such is worth whatever you feel is appropriate.
$4000 doesn't seem unreasonable.
I also like the idea that you should sell it to someone who will play it and really appreciate it.
However, it seems to me that generally the people who can spend the most money on instruments are the collectors. The people who will really play and
appreciate the instruments are most likely the ones who can't pay as much, so i think there's a potential contradiction there. Of course there are
exceptions; some players, like Simon, can both afford and appreciate great instruments (although when you have several great Nahats, you might not be
as interested in contemporary builders).
Another aspect of buying instruments that I have become more aware of recently is whether they will appreciate or not. If I spent money on an old
Nahat, I can be pretty sure that it will always be worth at least that much and probably go up in value. For a contemporary luthier's work, it's more
of a gamble, unless they're really established.
That said, if you want to know realistically what I would consider paying, my limit would probably be about $2000, assuming I absolutely loved the
sound.
really though, I think you should probably keep this oud for yourself, as you originally planned. As much work and care as you put into it, no one
deserves to play it as much as you do . . .
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Again, thanks Brian and Mav. Your thoughts are meaningful. And I agree. I don't think I could get what I want for this oud anyway, i.e. what it's
worth to me. But who knows, I'm not shutting any doors. One request from you all, keep your fingers crossed that is sounds nice!
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by palestine48
Jameel can you do a short video on how you are doing the inlays. Im amazed and somewhat perplexed by the work. I get the idea but it feels so
surreal. I wish my hands were as delicate.
Thanks,
Rami |
See pages 1-4 , there are videos there showing the process.
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Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
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This reminds me of those "priceless" commercials on tv.  I dunno...but I think
this is a keeper Jameelo. Even the little inlay on the bottom is beautiful.
Now back to the Norm debate. I like Norm, and I enjoy watching his show. The guy that I don't care for is Bob Vila, the home improvement guy. Now that
guy bugs. Anytime you are wearing shorts, shoes with no socks, and a polo shirt and you're showing how to demo a bathroom...that doesn't fly with me.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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I love those ads, Mike. But this oud may end being the punchline if it turns out sounding like a cigar-box banjo. I can see it now:
Price of tools and materials to build one oud: $300+.
Time spent making it: way too long
Remembering you can't play worth a damn anyway: priceless.
But I'd have to say that one of my all-time favorites are the series of Geico ads featuring the cavemen. Love it!
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palestine48
Oud Junkie
Posts: 448
Registered: 6-9-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Free Palestine
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I love those bud light radio ads where there is a narator and a band who repeats the praises of some goof ball, like mr jean shorts invenetr. we
reallly love your jooorts.
or mr spf 40 sun block wearerrrrr. those are hilarious.
You are from from a goof ball jameel, but bud light is proud to present mr. unusual round instrument maker.
We really love your oudddddddddddd.
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Elias
Oud Junkie
Posts: 126
Registered: 6-3-2004
Location: italy
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oudy
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WOW! Jameel...this oud is simply fantastic!!!But what timne didi it takes?!?
The decoration are great and so precise....In looking it's really similar to a real Nahat....i look forward to hear it sound!
I hope you don't stop your oud production...
You left me without words...
Mabrouk!!
elias
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Mood: No Mood
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Fingerboard and beard inlay....
On to the next step, the fingerboard abd beard. For a while I've been debating on how to design the fingerboard. First I thought I would do a nice
inlay pattern, then a couple months ago, in a moment of impatience and anticipation, I though I'd make it solid bone, very traditional and very
"Nahat", and very quick. Or why not plain ebony or rosewood, I thought? I even toyed with the idea of using Corian. Well, as usual I ended up back
where I started. I really like the Nahat design that uses a series of 4 birds (storks, or swans) amidst an acanthus-style vine. The design itself is a
common Nahat theme, and has been excecuted using wood, bone or a comination of both. I decided to use a dark brown wood, in this case, Pau Ferro, also
called Morado, with bone used for the design. I've seen this pattern excecuted with thick lines for the vine, and very very fine lines, as in the case
of Tony Klein's Roufan Nahat. Of course, I would have to try the one that used a more refined line. Inlay of this sort can be done in a number of
ways. The most common way is to cut the design out, temp glue it to the fingerboard material, scribe the outline, rout the waste area and glue in the
inlay. This method demands that the scribing and routing be as close to perfect as possible to reduce the amount of filler where the scribing/routing
departed from the inlay. I used this method on all the inlay on this oud so far, but because the inlays have been geometric shapes, the scribing and
routing have been relatively easy because of the lack of curved lines. Another method is to tack the inlay material and fingerboard material togtherm
and cut both out simultaneously. The inlay will fit perfectly in the cavity, but it will also have a gap around it the same size as the thckness of
the blade used to cut it out. On larger inlays this does not pose much of a problem if a thin jeweler's blade is used for the cutting. A third method,
and the one that I plan to use involves cutting the inlay and fingerboard simultaneously, with the blade a precise angle, such that when the piece is
cut, the inlay fits very precisely into the fingerboard with no gaps at all. The only areas that need to be filled are the entry holes that are
drilled in each interior area. The accuracy of the inlay is a given. The only mistake to be made is wandering from the line, and in such a case the
inlay will fit no worse, it will simply be slightly (or not, depending on how bad it wandered) different than the original design. This is an old
marquetry technique, and I'm convinced, based on some close study of Nahat inlays, that it is a method they used.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
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Test cuts using the technique...
The angle is determined by a mathematical formula based on the width of the blade, and the thickness of the materials. Or, by trial and error. That's
the method I used since I'm no mathematician
The inlay material is on top, the fingerboard material on bottom. The pattern would be glued to the bone during the actual cutting.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
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Since we are cutting away the waste from the inlay, we discard the waste piece of bone, and the push the fingerboard material flush with face of the
bone. Because of the angle, the piece is wedge shaped, and stops precisely flush with the inlay.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
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Here you can see how precise the fit is. There is no gap because the pieces were cut at the same time.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
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Here is another test cut. The angle was too steep, so the materials didn't fit together flush. The fit is still perfect, it's just not fitting in as
far as it could.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
Registered: 6-4-2004
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Thats Great Jameel!!
You could actualy make 2 fingerboards in that way!!
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Actually, no, you can't. But it would be sweet if it did!  It works because
the larger piece from the fingerboard is fitting into the smaller cavity of the inlay. So the waste bone pieces are much too small
to fit in their corresponding areas on the fingerboard. Getting two fingerboards only works if the cut is 90 degress.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
Posts: 3405
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Oh I tought it was 90 degrees...Well goes to show how much I know
Keep it up Iam really enjoying this.
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Doing the actual inlay
Here are some pics of the beard inlay, using the aforementioned technique. For some reason, the bone ended up blotchy and translucent, probably
because it is only about 1mm thin. I'll try to come up with a solution so it's nice and white. I'll probably make this piece over. This just doesn't
look that great as is. But the inlay sure came out nice. No gaps AT ALL. And the only areas to fill are the decorative kerfs and entry holes. This
technique rocks!
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1582
Registered: 7-27-2004
Location: Los Angeles
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More amazing work, Jameel. I love the scrolling vine-- a really classic look.
I sent you a u2u
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Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
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Fingerboard
The beard ended up looking quite nice by the next morning. I think the bone was saturated with some mineral spirits I had wiped on, thus the
blotchiness. I had a few people comment to me that this design looked too much like ducks. I agreed, but then I decided to use it anyway. Besides,
there are a row of birds that make up each of the small rosettes, and they look ducky too. I wanted to keep the Nahat theme, and this has been used by the Nahats extensively. I was given the idea of using some gazelles as a
design element, and I really like the idea. Maybe I'll try it on the next oud.
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