davide
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Oud for beginner
Hello everyone, I'm new to this forum and to the oud and write on this forum for advice on the purchase of the instrument. I am looking for a suitable
instrument for a beginner, but he did sound good and look good. My maximum budget is 500 € including
any shipping costs. I'm in Italy. What do you recommend?
thanks for the advice?
P.S.
sorry for my English...
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Aymara
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Hi Davide,
welcome to the forums!
Your question has been asked hundreds of times, just search the forums for "beginner". And also have a look for "Sukar" ouds.
BTW ... maybe you should talk to Igor.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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davide
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Thanks.
I apologize for the redundancy of my post.
Investigate the question I realized that for my needs would be better a turkish oud.
I spotted this on ebay, http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170521110434&... but I'm in doubt... the shipment would be in a soft case for a time by almost a month and then on the costs of customs ... might be a good buy?
thanks again.
davide
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Aymara
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No problem. But don't wonder, that nobody is willing to answer the same question every two weeks 
| Quote: | | ... I realized that for my needs would be better a turkish oud. |
Are you shure?
I think, you should first make some homework
Turkish ouds are different ... higher tuning. Search Youtube for "oud" and listen to as many oud videos as possible to get a feeling for the
differences between turkish and arabic ouds and playing. You'll also notice, that there are differences between arabic ouds.
The goal is to find the sound you like most.
Ok, you could also tune a turkish oud down to an arabic tuning, but it's not the same ... arabic ouds have more bass.
And be careful with ouds on ebay ... there are many not worth the money.
Learn, learn, learn ... which oud design you like most and which luthiers are good.
Don't hurry, learn your lessons first ... the forums are of great help.
For basic info visit the Oud Cafe, the website of one of the forum members.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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davide
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You're right ... I have much to learn yet ... but I read on this forum that the turkish oud has a sweeter sound , I do not know what kind of oud is,
but the sound I'm looking for is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDPYgYbC5uI
davide
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Aymara
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... and you'll also find out, that THIS is a matter of individual taste. You'll also notice, that most people in the forums prefer the DEEP bass of
arabic ouds, you'll never get with turkish ouds, which are not only tuned higher, but also have a smaller body.
Visit Elias Nardi's MySpace profile and you'll notice, that he plays arabic, not turkish music. Also his oud, though it looks similar to many turkish
ouds, is MUCH bigger
It seems, you have a similar taste as most people here, who also prefer arabic ouds.
First lesson learned 
PS: A further reason to get in contact with Igor ... his oud is very similar to what you are looking for.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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davide
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Quote: Originally posted by Aymara  | that most people in the forums prefer the DEEP bass of arabic ouds, you'll never get with turkish ouds, which are not only tuned higher, but also
have a smaller body.
It seems, you have a similar taste as most people here, who also prefer arabic ouds.
First lesson learned
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I think you're right, watching several videos on youtube it seems I prefer the sound
Arabic oud, deeper and Medios ... is there any other distinction in Arabic ouds? body shape and sound holes
... In short, what should be the
main features of the oud to approach the reference sound of that Elias Nardi's video?
thanks
p.s. I'll try to contact Igor ... :-)
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by davide | | In short, what should be the main features of the oud to approach the reference sound of that Elias Nardi's video? |
That's hard to tell, because there are many influencing factors regarding the sound: the body size and shape, the soundholes, the string choice and
not to forget the wood. I myself for example like the warm bass of rosewood bowls, but I also saw and heard walnut bodies having a very deep bass.
One general rule regarding your question is to stay away from floating bridge ouds ... arabic ouds with a fixed bridge seem to be the way to go. And
Elias' oud body is very big, which is often the case on Egyptian ouds.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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fernandraynaud
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Davide, there are some general categories, but with so many variables, and luthiers and musicians experimenting with woods, finishes, strings, bracing
and structure, many ouds now straddle categories. There are long sustain instruments with deep bass, and there are big very Egyptian-sounding ones
that have little. You have to take the time to form your own opinions and get to know what you like. Youtube is a blessing.
In the end what you get as your first oud is not so critical, as long as it's an encouraging instrument, as it would be very unusual for you not to
end up with several ouds and really "get into it".
As Chris says, a Sukar is an exceptionally good choice for a first instrument, no matter what, as they sound good, play well, have an adjustable
action, and are moderately priced. I happen to like them a lot, so it's only logical that I recommend a Sukar. Some people reject them because of the
hidden non-traditional neck adjustment wing-nut, and a few do not like the sound. But most oud players consider them "excellent for the money".
Sonically Sukars are intermediate, they are now made with a 600 mm scale, and can be pulled into different directions by choice of strings, action
setting, and tuning, including Turkish tuning if desired. I have one that I tune Arabic, and that sounds rather massively Egyptian, and another that
sounds great tuned Turkish and could also very well be strung and tuned to high ff. The least expensive Model 1 is within your budget, and it's a
great first oud, especially if you put a little loving care into optimizing it. In many ways it's like the legendary 1954 Chevrolet that Americans of
the BabyBoom generation learned to fix cars on: solid, ample, everything accessible and simple, reliable, great performer, easy to work on and
customize.
Welcome and enjoy this magical instrument.
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davide
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | Davide, there are some general categories, but with so many variables, and luthiers and musicians experimenting with woods, finishes, strings, bracing
and structure, many ouds now straddle categories. There are long sustain instruments with deep bass, and there are big very Egyptian-sounding ones
that have little. You have to take the time to form your own opinions and get to know what you like. Youtube is a blessing.
In the end what you get as your first oud is not so critical, as long as it's an encouraging instrument, as it would be very unusual for you not to
end up with several ouds and really "get into it".
As Chris says, a Sukar is an exceptionally good choice for a first instrument, no matter what, as they sound good, play well, have an adjustable
action, and are moderately priced. I happen to like them a lot, so it's only logical that I recommend a Sukar. Some people reject them because of the
hidden non-traditional neck adjustment wing-nut, and a few do not like the sound. But most oud players consider them "excellent for the money".
Sonically Sukars are intermediate, they are now made with a 600 mm scale, and can be pulled into different directions by choice of strings, action
setting, and tuning, including Turkish tuning if desired. I have one that I tune Arabic, and that sounds rather massively Egyptian, and another that
sounds great tuned Turkish and could also very well be strung and tuned to high ff. The least expensive Model 1 is within your budget, and it's a
great first oud, especially if you put a little loving care into optimizing it. In many ways it's like the legendary 1954 Chevrolet that people of the
BabyBoom generation learned to fix cars on: solid, ample, everything accessible and simple, reliable, great performer, easy to work on and customize.
Welcome and enjoy this magical instrument.
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Thanks for the helpful and encouraging words!
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davide
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What kind of oud is this?
In the photo is Jodel Grasset
Thanks
Davide
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fernandraynaud
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Design is Turkish, and people in photo seem "petite", and provide a "scale", so I'd say Turkish.
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Aymara
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... but the tuning seems to be arabic ... you'll find him on Youtube and MySpace.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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aytayfun
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It is absolutely Turkish type and according to design I thinks it was made by Mustafa Biçicioğlu From İzmir.
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
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fernandraynaud
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It would also be very unusual for an Arabic oud to be built with 11 pegs: usually 12, sometimes 10, but it's a Turkish idea to have 11 peg-holes.
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davide
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it is this aspect that led to my request to the forum ...
is really what I'm looking for ... an oud to be a little like a turkish but that sounds like an arabic ...
Davide
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Aymara
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| Quote: Originally posted by davide | | is really what I'm looking for ... an oud to be a little like a turkish but that sounds like an arabic ... |
Many luthiers nowadays build arabic ouds with a short scale of 58,5 cm and a bit smaller body. You'll also notice, that many oud designs are a mix of
several influences. Mine for example has a soundboard, that looks Iraqi (oval soundholes), has a Turkish like short scale, but a deep Moroccan body.
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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davide
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Another question ... What is the effect of down-tuning a turkish oud to arabic tuning
Someone has done it? Which results in sound?
THANKS AGAIN
Davide
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fernandraynaud
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Of course people have downtuned.
If you put a generic string set (like a D'Addario J95 or a Daniel Mari) on an Arabic 610-625 mm scale oud you can tune it Arabic, but not Turkish as
the tension is getting too high.
But on a shorter 580-600 mm scale the same strings are under less tension for a given tuning, so you can tune it down to Arabic or up to Turkish.
A typical 585 mm scale Turkish oud if tuned Arabic works fine but still sounds rather Turkish. Tom Chandler had one he had unsuccessfully tried
talking into being Arabic, so he finally sold it. There are a lot of details that make an oud sound one way or another.
It can be argued that without a pretty good-sized bowl you can't get the deep Arabic sound. But there are some small ouds that sound rather Arabic.
Sukars are (always now?) made with a compromise 600 mm scale but a large bowl, and these can be tuned either way and made to sound either (rather)
Arabic or (rather) Turkish.
The pure Riyadh Al Sunbati type "Egyptian" sound is best achieved on a big bowl large scale oud that just naturally sounds that way. Something in the
design makes the sustain sort of cancel itself out, so you get that more percussive sound with the "echo". There are some inexpensive Egyptian ouds
with all sorts of (minor) problems, like not very good pegs etc, that sound divine. But you can't tell ahead of time, you have to try it, as other
just sound like a cigar box.
It seems that it is also hard to get "that" sound unless the action is rather high, like over 4 mm, which is not as nice to play. This is an
observation that is not based on a huge sample, so treat it as tentative, but in my experience, a very professional oud with a very low action and an
ebony fingerboard tends not to sound like that, as it will have a buzzier timbre and a long sustain, it will not sound Turkish necessarily, but also
not very Egyptian.
You can't have everything in one instrument, and there's no point in trying. You should decide what is most important for your first oud, and I would
think that playability ranks high -- a low action.
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Aymara
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... or a drawer
Greetings from Germany
Chris
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davide
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LOL
Davide
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nasrudinjeh
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I'm fairly sure that the oud in question is made by the Sandi oudmakers in Akara. Rosettes, bridge, and pickguard are almost identical to my Sandi
VMIU 150, although the one in the photo has the short raher than long fingerboard. It might be worth your while to ask Mr., Sandi himself; check out
his Cankaya music catalogue at http://www.cankayamuzikevi.com/katalog2.htm . In my experiecne this ais an excelentmaker to deal with, and I've been that I looked into Sandi
oudsa few years agio with the kind encouragement of journeyman. Good luck in your research, davide.
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fernandraynaud
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You know, Davide, most of us here are into Arabic ouds. There's a detail, in that, that may help you make up your mind I think.
The important detail is that Turkey is gravitating towards the EU, and wages & prices in Turkey are higher than in e.g Syria, Jordan or Egypt,
much higher, and rising. A good Turkish oud tends to cost a lot more.
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davide
Oud Lover
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| Quote: Originally posted by fernandraynaud | You know, Davide, most of us here are into Arabic ouds. There's a detail, in that, that may help you make up your mind I think.
The important detail is that Turkey is gravitating towards the EU, and wages & prices in Turkey are higher than in e.g Syria, Jordan or Egypt,
much higher, and rising. A good Turkish oud tends to cost a lot more.
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... I am learning it by asking estimates and looking at shops and auctions on the web. Discourse still
true for instruments made or sold in Greece!
But to import here in Italy goods from areas outside the EU also means paying at the customs 25% on the total price of merchandise + shipping! The
saving is therefore not so obvious ... must be evaluated case by case 
Davide
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