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fernandraynaud
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Best pickup type (and mic'ing) for baglama saz?
Well, sooner or later it had to happen. I found the Baglama Saz deal I was hoping for. A guy down at our local animation paradise (you wouldn't
BELIEVE the colorful toy world they work in) gave up on learning to play it and put it up on Craigslist, so I went down, handed him the modest sum he
wanted, and (after marveling at his personal work studio set-up and meeting his co-worker in the adjacent heaven-office with some lutes and a Turkish
oud) drove home one deeper in Middle Eastern instruments. Wow, how DO they manage to make that thin wooden neck so it stays so straight and doesn't
need a truss-rod?
The stringing is amazing: the top course with two steel 0.007" and a steel-core wound string, the middle course with two steel 0.011", and the lowest
with a 0.007" and a fatter steel-core wound string !? I thought this was a mistake, but a little Googling seems to confirm it as valid. On multiple
sources' recommendation, I tuned it (Ascending) Gg dd Aaa. A thin delrin risha seems to be fine as a plectrum, better than than little soft red
plastic gala thingie it came with.
The tie-on frets work well, and offer all the half-flats needed for most Maqamat, like B-halfFlat, E-halfFlat and a few more. The bridge is so low
it's nowhere as surgical an instrument as an oud (no Mike's for THEM guys), and the whole approach lends itself to straight-ahead carpet-strumming in
Neva. Wheee!
I was surprised that K&K lists every imaginable instrument, including a Saw, with a pickup recommendation -- but no Baglama, no
Saz. So can someone who's been there tell me what they've found works best, for studio work, and for live playing? A piezo under the
bridge? dual piezos on the soundboard? under the soundboard? I don't see any way to access the innards except possibly through the little
swiveling cat-door (do they come off?). How about mic'ing, what type of mics in what positions work best?
Thanks
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Greg
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That is certainly one of the (many) tunings.
I play a bağlama I purchased in Turkey and was told there that the 'normal' tuning is ascending Aa gg Ddd. That was the tuning on all of the
several instruments I tried in several stores.
This tuning is referred to as 'bağlama or aşık düzeni' and is re-entrant, so a little difficult at first for those accustomed to
normal low to high tuning.
The small soft plectrum is the type used by all the bağlama players I have seen.
Enjoy!
Greg
PS checkout http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=7370
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Sazi
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Baglama was once my main instrument, and for bang for buck you can't go past k&k twin spot classics, as long as you don't mind them being on there
all the time. I had great results on all my sazlar with a spot each side of the bridge... it was a far better sound than my friend's bridge piezo.
I may even be able to dig up a soundbite of the saz with the k&k's...
The AKG C411 is used a lot in Turkey I've noticed, easy to get on & off too, great sound, but you could get the k&k's for ALL your instruments
for that kind of $.
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Sazi
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I also use the tuning Greg mentions, although properly it should be LA SOL RE, as the actual pitch is often from B or C, (look up Arif Sag or Musa
Eroglu ) as the length of the short-necked saz's has generally gotten shorter over the last decade or so.
(Hey Greg, how'd you get those Turkish characters?)
The tuning you mention (the d's sound a 5th below the A's, with the G's one tone below the A's) is the common long necked (uzun sapli) saz tuning Kara
Duzeni, although it is used on short neck for folk/dance music.
There are a few other very good baglama players here that may offer more advice.
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fernandraynaud
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Contrary to the impression created by the perspective of the photo, this is a long neck 23 fret baglama. Yes the reentrant aspect takes some getting
used to. I guess they call Gg dd Aaa bozuk tuning?
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Sazi
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Correct, Bozuk or Kara, same thing. Nice find!
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Sasha
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I have used K&K Twin spots on most of my sazlar, from the curas all the way up to my meydan with excellent results.
It may take some fiddling to get the best high and low responses as far as placement on the soundboard.
Please use the correct pick, and PLEASEPLEASEPLEASE don't try to 'improve' the instrument - since I am pretty sure the luthier had a pretty good idea
of how it is supposed to sound...
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fernandraynaud
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Thanks, Sazi, it really is lovely, and the price was completely absurd. I felt almost bad enough to make him keep the change on the Benjamin,
but you can't argue too much when the change buys you a full tank of gas, a nice dinner out with the wife, or a fat carton of Marlboros. My
wife keeps looking at it and picking it up (I allow her) muttering something about "... for THIS beautiful thing?".
Sasha! What do you mean "improve"? I can't think of ANYTHING that I'd change on it other than drilling some holes in the bowl to give it some air,
enlarging the cat-door so my hamster can get in, taking off the unnecessary frets, putting some proper Schaller machine gear tuners and a scuba
divers' flag on the broom-stick, gluing some big Justin Bieber decals on the soundboard, and installing rock'n roll Super Slinky guitar strings to go
with the new humbucking pickups, after mounting a Gibson tune-O-magic bridge and a tailpiece tremolo bar on one of those e-bay after-market
gold-plated tailpieces (to match the glitter gold-flake Mexican pick-guard, and those vintage gold-clear plastic guitar knobs for the volume and tone
knobs, and the gold-plated 1/4" and Roland Midi-synth jacks). Other than these minor conveniences, and maybe someday adding a subtle iPod
cradle and a USB Jack, I wouldn't dream of "improving" it as I think a traditional instrument should be respectfully kept the way it was meant to be.
No, seriously, are you referring to the pick? The one little soft pick that the former owner gave me is so soft I think it might be an extreme case,
there is undoubtedly a range of thicknesses used, and THIS one is paper-thin, and soft; it's like trying to play with a thin slice of gummy bear. A
piece of the 0.030" black acetal (Delrin<R> ), or that softer black plastic, like we use for rishas, works better for me. Now i must confess
that after playing with oud rishas i love the long shape and use a long risha on bass and guitar too, as I never liked or used the traditional guitar
picks. Is that length improper or likely to ruin the Saz's timbre (like using a guitar pick on an oud)?
Or are you referring to wanting a pickup? Or considering mounting the pickup under the soundboard?
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Sasha
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"Sasha! What do you mean "improve"? I can't think of ANYTHING that I'd change on it other than drilling some holes in the bowl to give it some air,
enlarging the cat-door so my hamster can get in, taking off the unnecessary frets, putting some proper Schaller machine gear tuners and a scuba
divers' flag on the broom-stick, gluing some big Justin Bieber decals on the soundboard, and installing rock'n roll Super Slinky guitar strings to go
with the new humbucking pickups, after mounting a Gibson tune-O-magic bridge and a tailpiece tremolo bar on one of those e-bay after-market
gold-plated tailpieces (to match the glitter gold-flake Mexican pick-guard, and those vintage gold-clear plastic guitar knobs for the volume and tone
knobs, and the gold-plated 1/4" and Roland Midi-synth jacks). Other than these minor conveniences, and maybe someday adding a subtle iPod cradle and a
USB Jack, I wouldn't dream of "improving" it as I think a traditional instrument should be respectfully kept the way it was meant to be."
You ALMOST gave me a heart attack!
There is a range of pick thicknesses available, and I know that some thicknesses just sound better with some of my sazlar - some sound better with the
thin, stiff ones, and others with the thicker gummy ones.
I have yet to find a saz where ANY of my oud rishas sounded *right*
I'm a stick in the mud guy and feel that the right tool is the traditional one...
Congrats on the score, though - not that I NEED another one, but...
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Sazi
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Here's a snippet of my saz with the k&k's...
Attachment: Saz-01.mp3 (729kB)
This file has been downloaded 530 times
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fernandraynaud
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Sazi, it sounds like the pickups put some meat on the sound of the saz, as opposed to a very trebly sound through microphones. Are both tracks the
same instrument?
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Sazi
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Are there still 2 files? I didn't mean to put it twice, sorry, it should be just the one file, and it's just the one track over percussion.
One of the things I like about that style and tuning, is if you do it right on a good instrument it sounds like 2 or 3 instruments @ once.
Yes definitely much better sound than mic, sounds great through a cranked 50w Marshall! ... they just don't seem to move enough air for a mic in a live situation, but I have had good results with an sdc mic in the
studio.
It was a very good saz too... listening back, I think I might have used a vintage pre emulation on the input channel, (it was a few years ago), but it
did sound pretty meaty just with the K&K's. I just had a spot either end of the bridge, just about touching it, I didn't faff around with
placement, just stuck 'em on, was happy so didn't bother trying other positions.
One thing I never tried, was mix an internal mic with the pick-up, I didn't have an open vent like yours, but that might be worth a try?
Also I have seen them mic'd on the face and @ the soundhole at the back, (2 mic set-up) a nice warmth comes from the hole and could be blended in.
I'd be interested to hear what forum member Pir Sultan has had success with, he has been playing a lot longer than me...
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myeyes2020
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Have you had any experience using the KnK twin spot on oud?
Adel
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Sazi
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Hi Adel, yes, I used it on most of my Turkish and Syrian ouds, I only had one where it didn't sound good no matter where I put the spots, but that one
was amazing acoustically. Now if I have to use a pick-up I use a Fishman SBT with the ProEQII, but usually use a mic, at the moment a Rode NT3, but
I'm up for a bit of experimentation.
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fernandraynaud
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Sazi, no there's one file but it sounded like there were two (parallel) tracks. Is this just one instrument, one track?
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myeyes2020
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thaks sazi!
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Sazi
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One track, one instrument and one me, playing along to a daf loop, (programmed, as I didn't have a daf handy at the time).
Quote: Originally posted by Sazi  |
One of the things I like about that style and tuning, is if you do it right on a good instrument it sounds like 2 or 3 instruments @ once.
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Kısı saplı bağlama (19 frets) tuned bağlama duzeni.
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fernandraynaud
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Can someone explain from a practical, as opposed to a traditionalist, point of view  why the GDA vs. the AGD tunings?
With Gg dd Aaa the middle dd course is quite slack. With Aa gg Ddd the middle course is tighter, the bottom a little tighter, but the top course
really feels pulled close to the breaking point. The instrument is much louder. Anything else? Is the tension ok?
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Sazi
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They are both common tunings, but the Sol, Re, La is more commonly used on long neck (Uzun saplı, 23 fr) saz, & La, Sol, Re on short neck
(Kısı saplı 19 fr) bağlama. The actual tuning these days is more commonly from Bb, C, or C#, but same intervals, A was common in
the 80's, earlier it was often G. They are for different repertoire, and totally different playing styles, long neck uses mainly the triple course for
melodic lines with the other strings mainly drone/pedal, short neck are mainly played across all strings with the thumb playing the bass strings.
Be aware there are two commonly available sets of strings, one usually sold as Saz Strings, and will probably be listed as .20, these are for long
neck, the other set is usually sold as Bağlama Strings, .18, and are for short neck. But the .18's are also good on long neck, it really depends
on the actual neck length & tuning you want to use, while it's easy to play short neck with any tuning it's much harder to play long neck with
Kısı saplı bağlama tuning,- horses for courses and all that.
Saz just means instrument in Turkish, but the long necked instrument is generally called saz, or sometimes bozuk, while the short necked is called
bağlama (pronounced baa-la-ma, the ğ is silent and lengthens the vowel preceding it).
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fernandraynaud
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Sazi, thanks! I hope you can answer the many questions strewn below. On my instrument:
The scale is 803 mm or 31.625"
The total instrument length is 1.08 m or 42.5"
The width is 222 mm or 8.75"
The depth is about 241 mm or 9.5"
There are 23 frets.
I had no idea what string set I have on it.
But it seems to match a La Bella Baglama Teli BA1.
The La Bella BA1 baglama string set was developed with the help of Mr. Hacik of Istambul. La Bella provides a four-step,
lab tested, tarnish proof technology on these sets that provides vibrant, aesthetically pleasing stings.
Envelope 1 has 3 plain steel strings .007 gage and 58" long
Envelope 2 has 2 plain steel strings .0011 gage and 58" long
Envelope 3 has 1 wound steel string .018 gage and 58" long
Envelope 4 has 1 wound steel string .024 gage and 58" long
And not quite the Avarez, which is very close, but shorter, (and the tuning assignments here seem a bit off, but aiming for Gg dd Aaa, or do you ever
put the two wound strings together in a course?):
Avarez Baglama Saz 40-42" long
Envelope 1 is LA with 4 thin steel strings, .007 inch gage.
Envelope 2 is RE with two heavy steel strings, .012 inch gage.
Envelope 3 is SOL with 2 heavy silver wound steel strings,
one is .015 inch and one is .023 inch gage.
Which of these is the 018 and which is the 020? Or is there another? The 40-42" long Avarez seem too short for mine, no?
It came with decent strings in decent shape, except that I had to look for a missing thin string among my harpsichord iron strings, finding a 0.008".
So the strings are now, from low to high, and as I have retuned it:
0.024" wound (nickel on steel?) LA - A 110 Hz
0.007" steel LA - A 220 Hz
0.011" steel SOL - G 195 hz
0.011" steel SOL - G 195 hz
0.018" wound (nickel on steel?) RE - D 146 hz
0.008" iron (replacement) RE - D 293 hz
0.007" steel RE - D 293 hz
So anything more you can tell me, Sazi dear? You say: The actual tuning these days is more commonly from Bb, C, or C#, but
same intervals, A was common in the 80's, earlier it was often G.
so you mean what? that the lowest note would be C instead of A? On my saz it would probably snap the strings, it's already very tight the way it is,
so you are probably talking about a shorter scale saz. Do you mostly play short or long neck? Which was on the recording above?
What you seem to be saying is that the long instrument like mine is rather meant to be tuned Gg dd Aaa the way I had it before. I prefer how tight and
loud it is now, tuned AGD, but is it safe?
As to different playing techniques, where can I see some simple examples of the two tunings/styles in action? I think I'd better decide on one for
now, until I get oriented. Are they supposed to be mutually exclusive? The whole concept of a rentrant tuning is very new, but attractive in an
accompaniment context.
I found a gummy risha that sounds like the little pick that came with it, but at least gives me something to hold on to, and allows aiming at specific
courses instead of just strumming. I'll buy an assortment of baglama picks to see if I can get used to any of them.
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Sazi
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No worries, but bit busy, will get back to it, in the meantime you will find the answers to many of the questions you ask in my previous posts...
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fernandraynaud
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When you get a chance, Sazi, I'm still at that moment of confusion about the tunings. Like do I aim for linear playing or dig into the re-entrant
mode.
BTW, listened to your MP3 on good equipment and LOVE it.
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fernandraynaud
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Sazi, oh Sazi. Here is my quandary.
I sure like the tension & loudness of the instrument pulled up to AGD, but something feels not right in trying to play it. I think it somehow felt
more logical tuned GDA. Not that it's EVER anything like a normal instrument, it's sort of like playing a piano in a rear view mirror, on a keyboard
knotted in a moebius strip. But if my reaction seemed more at home in the long GDA tuning, though THAT was a bit too slack, do you have any
suggestions? I want to record with other instruments, like Arabic oud and piano, so I can't do any of that "tune to whatever" stuff!
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fernandraynaud
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Sazi, what seems to work well for me at the moment is Cc gg Ddd. Very high tension, but hasn't broken a string yet, even on that poor wound 0.024"
that feels like it's ready to essplode. It's seemingly a standard bozuk tuning as would be used on the shorter neck baglama, the same intervals as
GDA, which makes it nice and standard? and the high tension is good for finger-picking.
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Sazi
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Well, looks like you're discovering some of the things I mentioned for yourself...
The tuning you mention in the above post is right, "standard" long-neck tuning, with the .18 strings, (where the thinnest are .007) should be fine,
but maybe the tension might be better at a semitone or even a tone lower, definitely if you use the .20 saz set.
I don't know about Avarez strings, if they're anything like their oud strings they are terrible, and the selection of guages is rather odd. If I can't
get hold of Toroman Muzik Evi strings, which are by far the best, (as used by Arif Sağ ) then I usually use Pyramid, they come in a little cd
type case. You don't mention the labella saz strings, (not Bağlama) which are .20 and designed for long neck.
I've never really been into the longneck style so can't really point you at any good players/examples, I cut my neck to short size and used
bağlama tuning, which was just too hard on longneck. As I said in an earlier post, 2 of the best bağlama players I know of are Musa
Eroğllu & Arif Sağ, (who also used to play long neck).
There are also MANY more longneck tunings, almost as many as there are different regions, you would possibly change the tuning depending on what you
wanted to play, such as EEA, for Hudayda perhaps. I met a Kurd who tuned all strings to LA! Açem is a Persian type tuning, like setar or tar, CFC, or
CGC. There are also tunings such as Misket, another popular folk tuning, which has the bass double course tuned to an interval, (a 4th apart if I
remember rightly, which I wouldn't bet on).
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