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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
Registered: 5-25-2004
Location: Lebanon
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Abdo Nahat 1906: I willn't say original or not original you have to judge
Abdo Nahat 1906 in good quality. 105 years old.NOT AVAILABLE FOR SALE
-Bowl :Walnut&Oak 49.5cmX35.5cm
-Stringlength:61.5 cm
-Big rosette: original of wood&Bone
-small rosettes:original of Bone
-Pegs:Original
N.B: I say the nut is new only.
the sound file come soon.
B.Rds
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
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Dear Mr. Ghadban !
You said "you have to judge", so here some questions/remarks/wonderment :
1) How come Abdo makes ouds in 1906 under his label, while Nahat Bro., his partnership with Rofan, was still alive manufacturing ouds & other
oriental crafts ?
2) How for heavens could this rose be original ? It says Abdo Nahat & his sons ! Sons in 1906 ? Elias, the elder son of Abdo, was born in 1902,
while George the second was born in 1907, so how come they both star on the rosette as associates with their father when Elias was 4 & George
wasn't even planned by his parents ? Moreover, it has a major mistake lacking the letter "و" (and) before his sons !
Let alone that the label says Abdo alone. No sons, no associates !
3) Moreover, the small rosette is not Abdo's. See the attached photo of one, assembled on an old oud, 300 $ worth ! I think it's the same hand who
made &/or installed both.
4) The bottom is not sealed as Abdo used to do. This might mean the soundboard is not original, or that it has been detached. It also shows at least
two kind of woods, one or two in the edges & another in the middle under the bridge.
5) Abdo also used to glue a square bone on top of the peghouse, not a nub ! This looks more like Aleppo's custom, not Damascus's.
6) The pickguard does not look like Abdo's 105 years old, unless the oud has not been played for ages, Well, I don't know, I'm not sure about this or
anything anymore . It looks more like GHN's pickguard, eventhough GHN's is much more precise, doesn't it ? See the attached photo !
7) The heart/almond-like shape on the end of the fingerboard does not belong at all & does not mach the design of its "father". It's made vice
versa, bone on wood (or bright on dark), while the fingerboard is made of wood in bone, or whatever it is, (dark on bright).
These were my remarks after a quick glimpse on the photos.
I don't promise I wouldn't have some more to come afterwards.
Please be brave Ostaz Nazih & say HOW MUCH ?
Why this should always be a super confidential military secret ?
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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zou
Oud Junkie
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what a pitty ! just take your ouds and play !!!
you remind me hercule poirot
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Mehran
Oud Junkie
Posts: 210
Registered: 4-27-2006
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Poirot, there hasn't been a finer mustache since
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tchandler
Oud Maniac
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although you have to say Fawzi Sayeb had one killer mustache
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Welcome aboard Samer Basha !
من اول غزواته كسر عصاته
I haven't written my comments in order to insinuate or imply that Ostaz Nazih is cheating here. The man asked for our judgment, and I accepted the
challenge & picked up the glove. I have no hard feelings toward anybody, not here nor elsewhere, neither do I carry any bias . I don't know Mr.
Ghadban, never saw any oud of his, never bought anything from him & of course never been cheated, God forbid, by him. Therefore I thought I could
be as objective as possible.
It's not a multi national contest either between Lebanese &/or Egyptian &/or other luthiers. We don't pay any attention to this issue here, so
please keep it this way if you don't mind. It does not matter in this forum's eyes if the luthier is from Afghanistan or from USA or from in between,
with due respect to both mentioned. What matters here is the OUD itself, not the belonging of the luthier to this race &/or country.
I hoped to read some more serious posts that would relate to what I've raised earlier, not some not-at-all-funny remarks about mustaches &/or
about Egyptian rebel and "buy Egyptian" thing. Buy ya seedy whatever you like ...
What a pity !
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
Registered: 5-25-2004
Location: Lebanon
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Quote: Originally posted by samertalat  | ALFARABY . Hi to you and all members here , My name is Samer talat from Cairo , I have been reading the forums for a while and now decided that I will
register , You are 100% right about what you wrote about the Oud Nazih Ghadban is trying to sell . As a professional oud maker he should know, And he
knows he is just trying to make some money and stick this oud to someone, I have asked him before about this oud and others but when i went to Lebanon
I saw Ghadban ouds for sale at Shaheens music store in Beirut for $350-$400 and was amaized when I emailed him once he was asking $3500 for a oud I
likes Sada Elrouh that he made a few to some people and they paid him very high prices.
I bough a Oud from Maurice Shehata for less than $500 and it is one great oud the best oud maker here in Egypt will take any Ghadban ouds any time.
I hate to buy online and get sheeted thats why I made a trip to Lebanon had good time and saw how Ghadbans ouds are cheap and when he sells them on
his site never puts a price and when you email him he always askd from $2500+ shipping and hard case to $4000 . What the hell he thinks people are
steeling money .
I do not mean to attack him but what you wrote is right I almost bough this Nahat oud and got scrwed up . Thank God i did noyt and will never buy a
oud from him . After Elthawra we aoly buy MADE IN EGYPT our country that always needs support. Tahya MASR weyahya elshaeb Elmasri .
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Azizi Talal
"اللي ما يطال العنب حصرما
عنه يقول"
who can't reach the grapes, he says they are sour grapes
I respect your opinion but it isn’t true! as money is interesting but it isn’t everything in this life.
If you talk about 16 years ago(1995,1996,1997)my prices were about 500$ while you could find there an oud for 50$ for another maker.”Sda El Rouh”
was at 2005 for 3500$ that is right !.
My prices online is the same but you feel higher as they include the DHL cost shipping and different box or hard case.
As I have many Egyptian friends I take this opportunity to greet them and the Egyptian people wishing them a decent living in conditions of democracy,
freedom, justice and equality. and to you Samer happiness for ever .
Yours
Nazih
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
Registered: 5-25-2004
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
Registered: 5-25-2004
Location: Lebanon
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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dear Mr Alfaraby
Dear Mr Alfarabi
I wanted to say that I posted this oud in Buy/sell section by wrong I have tried to transfer it to the ouds,ouds,ouds /section but I didn’t reach
that. as I didn’t want to sell this oud .
Thank you for your appreciable feedbacks which export from an expert well-informed and knowledgeable .
I think the card inside the oud is the true and authentic (Abdo 1906) As I said earlier, there would be no surprise that this oud-making by Abdo Nahat
1906 and not Ikhwan Nahat.if the Ikhwan Nahat dismissed the partnership, as some say between 1900 and 1910 and some also say that Abdo was working in
his name in the last period before the separation of the partnership. I would like to say the story of Nahats is not entirely clear that where some
of the ambiguities and non-understandable that requires to go to Damascus to Orthodox Archdiocese to verify the dates of birth and marriage and
children of Abdo and other Nahat membres. .
The wood rosette section don’t beyond any doubt and clearly show its authenticity.As for the calligraphy of children,there are two possibilities
either the bone part is removed although I see something is broken of bone of the letter “ "وor Abdo was looking forward to the day when his
sons assisted them by typing their name on the rosette before they practically help him! It confirms my words the kind of old bone used. I think the
writing is correct as there is some unobserved modification from a rosette to another made by Abdo as they are hand made.
which confirms the authenticity of the soundboard is the thikness of the soundboard and the Mosaiq at its edge at the edge of the fingerboard and
around the rosettes, even the width of the two last ribs of the bowl as well as the small rosettes made of Camel bone, I have seen a lot alike in
Abdo’s ouds 1911 and 1914 and 1927 while in the image you show it appears to be drawn from the plastic. (see pics)
I compared the pickguard with other pickguard of Abdo it has the same accuracy. I would like to say that the health of any oud is by the hands which
campaign throughout these years, hence you find some aged ouds in poor condition while others are still in good condition.
For the heart I am like you I've seen rougher texture, but it is consistent with the fingerboard.For the end back of the bowl I have seen some Abdo
ouds alike. As for the top of the pegbox there is a bone square and a nub over it ,the same I have noticed in Abdo 1911 and 1917.
This oud is an original Nahat in its general shape in its measurement as well as in its great sound
Enjoy an mp3 file sound of Hijaz Kar Kord
* I named by wrong the file sound Ikhwan 1906.
the right it is Abdo Nahat 1906 Hijaz Kar Kord Makam
All the best to you all
Nazih Ghadban
Attachment: Ikhwan 1906 Hijaz kar kord.mp3 (739kB)
This file has been downloaded 312 times
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
Registered: 5-25-2004
Location: Lebanon
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Hijaz Kar Kord of Abdo Nahat 1906
I am sorry! I named the file sound Ikhwan Nahat 1906 by wrong.
the right : it is Abdo Nahat 1906 (Hijaz Kar Kord)
Attachment: Ikhwan 1906 Hijaz kar kord.mp3 (739kB)
This file has been downloaded 287 times
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Thank YOU Mr. Ghadban. I appreciate your complement & would remember this for days to come.
I agree the label looks authentic, notwithstanding the ambiguities as you've stated. One should trace the numbering they adopted. What does this 947
or so number mean ? I tend to believe Abdo adopted the numbering of Ikhwan Nahat as his, & Rofan did the same, as he kept the numbers going after
they've split . Otherwise, how should we explain these numbers when talking about couple of years only working under his own label.
Can't agree with Abdo made ouds while he was still a partner in Nahat Bro. ! Either they worked together or they separated. It can't be that they
worked jointly & separately. One can't compete with himself ! In Arabic we call it :
شريك مضارب
Even the authentic documentation of the church is not beyond any doubt, and even more so can't clarify the oud issues we're dealing with . It says
Abdo was born in 1865 while we know he launched his business with Rofan, his Elder brother back in 1880. How would one became a luthier when he's 15 ?
Can't accept the suggestion Abdo wrote "hopefully" & Sons before they actually worked with him, let alone George wasn't even born then as
aforesaid . First Abdo used to add "his son Elias" to the rosettes, then after George joined in, he started writing & Sons, though George never
appeared as a luthier ever after the family migrated to Brazil in 1938, while Elias made his come back after he retired in 1969, leaving us with 100
ouds within 15 years. You may get back to Livia Jacob's research "The Last of the Nahats" to learn more about Elias.
Therefore, Mr Ghadban, one should admit : This rose, even if original, does not belong to this oud. Period. Any other argument should be overruled.
"Plastic" ? Thank you Ostaz Nazih ! Do I sound like who might buy plastic roses ?
Now as to the SOUND : This morning I told a friend that Nazih might blow all what I've written, once he uploads a sound-file with some Abdo
ground-to-air explosives !
UNFORTUNATELY you didn't ! What I heard does not sound like Abdo I've seen, heard & played, though I have to admit I haven't seen many, but sure
heard a lot.
This is not the "fireworks" one may expect from The Master of all times. Listen to this & compare :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p78NIcSohYc
This argument would continue forever, but one thing is obvious : This oud is not all original, though some parts might be . We should not take out of
consideration also that some of the ouds we compare with, might not be original themselves, especially those with the nub !
Once you decide to sell this oud, pls. let me know & quote the price. I want to open it & see its interiors.
Cheers !
Yours indeed
Alfdaraby
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
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I know nothing of the arguements surounding this oud but just wanted to say I enjoyed the sound file a lot - very beautiful and passionate playing ...
the oud sound pretty good too !!!
Leon
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1025
Registered: 11-14-2005
Location: Portsmouth, UK
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... and that clip of Simon Shaheen is something else!!
Leon
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
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Location: Lebanon
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Thanks Ararat
really I like the sound of this abdo 1906 too much,powerful,intense,balancy,and lovely arabic sound.I am trying to post another Mp3 file sound of
Rast Maqam . I think you will find it different !As I use temporarily a bass C.
Azizi wa Sadiki Al Farabi
I didn’t intend at all to bother you when I said your small rosette appears like plastic
As I doubt from its milk cold color .
Again I am fascinated by your wide knowledge which let me happy by discussing objectively with you.
Generally an Mp3 file sound gives us an idea about the sound as demonstration, it doesn’t give us the complete idea !then the judgment willn’t be
right 100% I think we have to listen to the oud lively.
the sound of Abdo 1906 you have listened to is with 5 pairs of strings(without the single C which gives to the sound more bass background) and the
Makam was Hijaz Kar Kord which as I think leaves an impression of a sharpness of the sound , I will try to post a new RAST file sound
With Abdo 1906 to know if your impression will be the same or not ! with 5 pairs and one C single of Aquila Light String I added it
temporarily!(see pic)
I can’t listen to Simon Chahine YouTube as my internet connection is very slow.
I think we have to seat together longtimes to explain and discuss many things about Those Magic Nahats,I look forward to this day !the problem I am
still teaching the philosophy and my free time is in my workshop ohlalalalalala the time!!!!!
I am proud as I think I am the first oud maker who signs a certificate of my ouds noticing inside all characteristics of that oud(measurement, kind of
wood used, serial number,strings,varnish…etc) I admit to you that you have encouraged me to sign a certificate for every Nahat’s oud -at the
limits of my knowledge- and my remarks about it (its sound,originality,if there is some repairs and where! ,serial number …..etc).
I would like to show you the label of an Abdo Nahat oud 1900 without a serial number,
isn’t Abdo is still in partnership with Roufan in 1900 ? What do you think?
Then the pics of two Label Abdo ouds 1914,1917 without a serial number !!!did Abdo put a serial in some of his ouds and didn’t in other ouds?what
you think?
The latest newsworthy that Abdo married twice did you know ?
Salamat with peace &love
Nazih
*NB:As the file sound is more than 1MG I uploaded it at my website:http://www.oudnazihghadban.com/users/special.asp
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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Ostaz ! I'm flattered.
I know Abdo married twice. That why he didn't have kids untill he was 35, then had 9 one after the other. His first wife died, so he remarried.
Abdo used to make ouds by order, beside the serial ouds made in the workshop. These ouds weren't numbered since they're unique, kind of off the track
ouds if I may say so. These ouds are very rare and might not exceede 20 pieces, or even less. We know about some of these ouds and where they are. You
might know aswell : Hamza, Sherif Mohyeddine, Qunia ... etc.
I'd like to meet an intellectual like yourself, but this shall take place in third party country for we both can't cross the borders, though we are
100 km far from each other !
You may sign a certificate, but does this worth ? It's your personal assessment, but not acceptable world wide. See ? We disagreed about almost
everything regarding this oud, let alone other Nahats, where we might need the intervention of the UN !! You may sign your own ouds, but not other's.
I shall be grateful if we continue our argument privately, because I doubt if this may interest anybody but us.
My mail : alfarabymusic@gmail.com
Thanks Istaz
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
Registered: 5-25-2004
Location: Lebanon
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Habibi Alfarabi
before all I would like to know your opinion about the second file sound of abdo 1906 (the rast makam)!
as I told before about using a cheap china mic to record my soundfiles!
I think you feel another oud with the Rast Maqam and the single C ! isn't it ?
I shall be happy to continue our argument although the lot oud orders I have, but let us continue in arabic.
Ahla salamat wa atyab el tamaniyat
Nazih
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
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Mood: play my ouds
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chaldo
Oud Junkie
Posts: 295
Registered: 2-13-2005
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Mood: archaic mood
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Last time I checked the #of view for this post (10 hours ago) was at 720 now it's 807.
that means 87 every 10h, 8.7 views per hour... and these are night time hours in the east coast north america..
At this pace, if you keep the rate, even Lou Dobbs and Woufff Blitzer will be jalous..
الخلاصة..... we are learning a bunch from your contribution/analysis about the Nahat ouds.... a family of
master luthiers that marked the 20th century oud building, keep it going.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
Location: Holy Land
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| Quote: Originally posted by Nazih Ghadban | | I would like to know your opinion about the second file sound of abdo 1906 (the rast makam)! I think you feel another oud with the Rast Maqam and the
single C ! isn't it ? |
Well ! I listened to the Rast file in his Excellency's site. It is different quite a bit, but still not convincing as Abdo's great ouds I've heard.
The sound-file has been edited, and some effects have been added. One can't judge an oud from a sound-file, whether edited or not. I've heard some 200
$ ouds that sound like a million in recordings, while they're 100 $ live, & vice versa . I do believe the player should play the oud for hours
before deciding to own it or leave it. I wouldn't have bought anything without touching ,feeling trying it, not even a shirt, not even a built, all
the more so an OUD !
Regardless the effects, I think the basses sound very good, while the C,G strings fail to exploit the maximum from the instrument. Just "Pyramid
Lute" appropriate set would derive the best of it. Any other set would be just waisting money in vain !
Another point I thought of about Ikhwan Nahat label &/or rosette : It seems that Ikhwan was some kind of a brand, & by writing on a rosette
"Ikhwan Nahat" they wanted to say it's of the same qualifications set by the elder brothers . Hanna, Tawfiq, GHN wrote Ikhwan on their roses. Were
they trying to fake something ? Of course not ! They just wanted to say it's like the Ikhwan's oud, the same measurements, the same proportions, the
same looks & so forth. Every single oud of these was labeled by the luthier's name inside the oud, trying to tell us: This is Ikhwan Nahat brand ,
made by Hanna, Antoine, Tawfiq, GHN, etc.
This method has been adopted by Elias Abdo Nahat later in Brazil. He kept writing Abdo Nahat & Sons, 40 + years after his father passed away,
saying: this oud is made according to the qualifications & measurements determined by the late grand Master of all times. He used to write on his
label that the oud was built in Sao Paulo & indicated its birth date, meaning it was built under the know-how, experience & knowledge acquired
under the supervision of the great Master. It's legitimate & desirable, isn't that so ?
As to the labels: I can assure you one of those posted by Ostaz Nazih is forged. Some amateur added Abdo's name in Arabic, in a modern font that had
not been invented yet, back in 1914 ! This modern font is a contemporary one, so the label is a mere anachronism. I'd not trust any label, because
every photoshop amateur nowadays (well, not just an amateur, a bit higher level
) may make any label he'd like. You may find some old paper in an old book, tear it off and here you go, give the order to print, with or without a
preview. Take a look & find the changes, but remember : This label does not exist in reality !
Orders for such works can be ordered online through our site for 0.1 cent each
This post is dedicated to chaldo, yet I think all there is to say in this context has been already said .
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
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Location: Lebanon
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Dear Mr Alfarabi
Before all: the sound file is without any effect “wallahi”
You are always trying to provoke me, but I will not be shaken as long as what I'm saying is true and is not doubt at all those ouds of Abdo Nahat
1906,1911,1914,1927 are with me before the existence of the computer and the Adobe Photoshop.
Azizi Al Farabi you have said”
I do believe the player should play the oud for hours before deciding to own it or leave it. I wouldn't have bought anything without touching
,feeling trying it, not even a shirt, not even a built, all the more so an OUD !
I think there is a contradiction in your saying that you have to play the oud to make a true opinion on the other hand you express an opinion about
Abdo’s oud 1906 without touching it .I think it is a non-substantive (غير موضوعي (at all.
Regarding the sound of Abdo 1906,this is your own opinion which I respect,but what I feel the sound of Abdo 1906 is quite better and intense and more
beautiful than Abdo ‘s oud which you referred to me, I think:
-firstly the taste of the sound is a personal matter
- secondly the role of the musician(player) and his skill
- Third the place of the playing and whether direct or indirect by internet
-fourthly the recording media
I wouldn’t say again what I have said before “Mp3 file sound gives us an idea about the sound as demonstration, it doesn’t give us the complete
idea!then the judgment willn’t be right 100%...”
Regarding the labels,I would say and assure all The labels I have posted are 100% true.
And all the types of Arabic fonts(diwani,thoutouth,koufi,Naskh,….) exist before Abdo Nahat I think from the Islamic period before Nine and the
tenth century
Here is also a label of abdo Nahat 1911which it is true 100%.
love &Respect
Nazih
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
Posts: 796
Registered: 9-18-2009
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| Quote: Originally posted by Nazih Ghadban |
you have said : ” I do believe the player should play the oud for hours before deciding to own it or leave it. I wouldn't have
bought anything without touching ,feeling trying it, not even a shirt, not even a built, all the more so an OUD !
I think there is a contradiction in your saying that you have to play the oud to make a true opinion, on the other hand you express an opinion about
Abdo’s oud 1906 without touching it .I think it is a non-substantive غير موضوعي at all.
... all the types of Arabic fonts (diwani, thoutouth, koufi, Naskh,…) existed before Abdo Nahat. I think from the Islamic period before Nine and
tenth century |
Ostaz
Before writing, one should read, shouldn't he ? I said: before deciding to own, the oud, not in order to express an opinion about the
sound, as been asked !
Arabic calligraphy is my second profession, so I know exactly when & where Arabic fonts have been created . The font on the label is neither type
of which you've indicated. It's a contemporary one, created in the computer era & never existed back in 1914 ! This label is a fake . Period.
That shall be all !
yours indeed
Alfaraby
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
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Location: Lebanon
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This is very funny and nonsense
The Label of Abdo Nahat 1914 is original 100%
Salamat
Nazih
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jack
Oud Junkie
Posts: 116
Registered: 4-5-2010
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Pardon to my forum brothers and sisters for my writing an almost duplicate post here to one on a similar thread, but I feel compelled. And with no
disrespect to Maurice Shehata, whose ouds are wonderful indeed, and worthy of praise, and I would be glad to own and play one someday. I am simply
responding Samertalats venom.
I own two Nazih Ghadban ouds, and they are incredible works of luthiership, and Nazih is a wonderful and honest man to deal with. I highly recommend
him and his ouds.
Thank you Nazih for your dedication to the craft, which has brought such wonderful instruments to my life.
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Nazih Ghadban
Oud Junkie
Posts: 167
Registered: 5-25-2004
Location: Lebanon
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Thanks Adel, Thanks Jack
I appreciate too much your comments.
Salamat to All
Nazih
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2950
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Opinions are fine, but let's please try to keep the discussion civilized.
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