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Jono Oud N.Z
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Marcus on Hijaz / Hijazkar Family
I was reading Scott Marcus' 'Arab Music in the Modern Period' about the idea of the 'shrunken augmented second' found in Hijaz and other maqamat.
The information is on pages 213-228.
Very interesting reading!
Interesting that in the older theory the seconds or Hijaz and Nakriz are both neutral tones (D,Ed,F#,G and C,D Ed,F#,G)
This conforms to the tuning common in the 17th century that was used in Ottoman music. This also comes from Persian intonation (Homayun,
Chahargah).
There was also a maqam called 'Hijaz Gharib' that was found in Egypt that used a raised second and lowered third (Marcus, page 303).
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spartan
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It seems that in practice every tetrachord or pentachord that includes Hijaz intervals ( Hijaz, Huzzam, Shuri, Suznak, Nikriz ect.) has higher the
second and lower the third.
I dont know if there is an exception about the 2nd upper tetrachord on Shehnaz maqam. It seems that A-Bb-C#-D is tempered.
Practice came before the theory and more important is the voice, the singing. So all the theories are based on the voice (the instrument follow the
capacity of the human voice). Human voice naturally will sang an augmented second with higher the 2nd note and lower the 3rd and not tempered.
Tempered is not normal for the human voice it's just a convention.
Different vocal traditions and infuences led to different theories.
A good example is the note Sigah.
Greeks, Armenians and Turks sing (and play) the note Sigah slightly higher than Arabs, and Persians slightly lower !
But ofcourse theories are important to understand and communicate each other
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Yes I agree.
The voice naturally wants to sing the 'augmented second' interval less 'square' and it sounds more natural and beautiful that way.
I know what you mean about Shanaz, particularly on the oud.
The more I learn about this, the more it is like language, changing from place to place but all being related.
The original reason for my look into the intonation issue is that I don't want to be playing Hijaz all kinds of different ways, but stick to one
tuning.
So, I will play with the raised second and lowered third, but play equal tempered with Western instruments.
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DoggerelPundit
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For additional insight (or context—or both) I recommend this little tome:
http://www.amazon.com/Equal-Temperament-Ruined-Harmony-Should/dp/03...
It seems "we" used to have musical flavor too!
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Thanks.
This is very interesting.
I do like Bach, but after listening to 99% maqam based music for a few years, the piano can certainly sound compromised and kind of out of tune.
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Brian Prunka
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Here's an abbreviated list of western instruments that don't stick to equal temperament:
Voice
Violin
Viola
Cello
Bass
Trumpet
French Horn
Trombone
Tuba
Flute
Saxophone
The notion that ET "ruined" western music is foolish, since western music never fully adopted ET. It's just a convention that is necessary for
Keyboard and fretted instruments to be able to play reasonably in tune in more than three keys.
There is something lost as well as something gained in ET. Unless you dislike the harmonic structures of everything from late Beethoven onward,
including all jazz music and the American songbook, you are a fan of ET to some degree. It makes complex schemes of modulation possible, directly due
to its ambiguity with tuning.
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Very interesting again.
I have friends that play the trombone, tuba and saxophones that have expressed this too.
Also good point..
I also really like Classical Western music and a lot of Jazz too.
Also I play and listen to much Medieval Western music which is obviously predates equal temperament and is lot closer to Arabic music, especially
Spanish music like the Cantigas of Santa Maria.
The oud functions very well for this music too.
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David.B
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Here we're talking about the descriptive theory.
Nowadays, most of us learn with the prescriptive theory (conservatories, methods). But I'm sure the majority on this forum has shifted for the
descriptive theory by listening. And this would be very interesting to make a survey...
Quote: Originally posted by spartan  | | I dont know if there is an exception about the 2nd upper tetrachord on Shehnaz maqam. It seems that A-Bb-C#-D is tempered. |
I already had this kind of conversation about Shadd 'Araban v.s. Hijaz Kar. If we take the prescriptive theory we talk about a key change, if we take
the descriptive theory we have two different maqamat -> http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=9746#pid738...
Jono you started on "Arab Music Theory (...)" where I've, temporarily, stopped.
Please tell us if you notice strange stuffs written -> http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11201#pid76... 
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Very good point.
I read a lot of theory, although I find I learn a lot by listening to many archive recordings, when the sayr is more intact and before the 24 quarter
tone idea was largely put into action.
I had a read of the pages.
The Shadaraban / Hjazkar discussion was very interesting.
I agree that although the basic scales are the same, the sayr sets them apart.
It bugs me when people simplify all the maqamat into only a few basic ones, ignoring sayr and accepting equal temperament.
As I have mentioned before, I do enjoy hearing Spanish guitar effects on the oud, but find listening to the path through the maqam much more
interesting; very much like a journey.
I have been listening to just Hijazkar (Arabic and Turkish), for about a week.
You can really get to know the individual maqamat like a person with their own unique character.
You have also been down the same road with the temperament / intonation issue obviously.
I was not sure exactly what you meant, sorry, could you please explain?
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David.B
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About the second link you quoted : I read Lloyd's work twice without understanding a few things. I'm writing down my remarks for the third reading and
I would appreciate if you have some... I would feel less alone 
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Some of the ratios and cents I don't fully understand to be honest..
I will certainly comment when I can though.
Some maqamat like Sazkar and Shadaraban were invented in Turkey, so it makes sense to look towards Turkey for a clearer description of these.
When you look at Dr Marcus' thesis, the work by d'Erlanger and Mîkhâ'îl Mashshâqa these seem incomplete.
But you can 'fill in the gaps' with these books also; 'Music of the Ottoman Court' (W. Feldman), 'Makam, Modal Practice in Turkish Art Music'
(K.Signell) and the 'Dastgah Concept in Persian Music' (H. Farhat), and recently ''The Turkish Makam Guide' (M.Aydemir).
I have found that by reading from Arabic, Turkish and Persian sources, it becomes possible to view this music as one music, that eventually became
two, then three similar but also differing musics. As Julien Wiess from Al Kindi stated in the liner notes to the 'Parfums Ottomans' album, that
Turkish, Arabic and Persian musics all have 'blind spots'. These are due largely to ideals of nationalism I believe.
It seems to be like a big jigsaw puzzle...
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David.B
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jono Oud N.Z | | I have found that by reading from Arabic, Turkish and Persian sources, it becomes possible to view this music as one music, that eventually became
two, then three similar but also differing musics. |
That's a good point, I should read more about Turkish and Persian sources more than I do... I'll remind your sources above.
Also, Amine Beyhom wrote here -> http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=11282#pid78...
"Apart from the critical review of modern theories and their integration in the course of the general history of the evolution of theories of Arab
music, Volume 2 exhibit interval measurements from the current practice or recording early twentieth century to the present, and also includes
appendices on Turkish music, Byzantine, Persian, and a continuation of the review of ancient Greek theories: if we do not understand these theories,
we can not understand the modern theories of maqam, period."
and
"I remind you, however, that the understanding of modern theories depends, in my opinion, by the old theories: just as the modern practice, even when
it deviates from accepted theories (ancient or modern) can not be understood if it is confronted with these theories and we're trying to understand
why the divorce between the two."
Music of the East is a real travel through cultures and time ! OK, let's go and study... Oops ! later, I have to go out to buy bread... French
culture... 
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
Unfortunately I can't read French.
But, i can understand parts of it if i slowly read it.
I would like to be able to read all of d'Erlanger's work too.
When I read Turkish sources, I can pick out the words that are musical terms and make some sense of it.
Here is a really good Turkish site, that shows the seyir (sayr) also.
http://www.eksd.org.tr/turk_sanat_muzigi/makamlar.php
I have a couple of pieces by Egyptian composers during the Ottoman period, one may possibly date from the 15th century
(or even 14th)!
These are both Bashraf pieces.
Yes it a very very interesting journey.
I am researching this music, and am constantly discovering new things.
The wonderful world of the maqam!
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spartan
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I like this discussion!
About SeddAraban ...of course it's a unique different maqam, each maqam has it's own feeling and character, there is no transposed maqams, this is a
european influence.
But we can play for example Hijaz on A (I like it more than D, it's more bassy)
In turkish language Sedd Araban mean Araban transposed!
Araban is a lost maqam, I think it's also called Neva Hijaz.
Has the same scale like Bayati shuri (karcigar) but different seyir.
Does anyone know some classical pieces on this maqam?
There are some taqsims like Omar Naqshbandi, Udi Hrant...
Does anyone have more info about this maqam?
It seems that this maqam is older than Hijaz, and in fact it's Araban that people played many centuries ago instead of Hijaz.
Thats why every modulation from basic maqam (Rast, Bayati, Sigah) goes most of the times to Neva Hijaz.
Maybe it's true maybe it's only a theory.
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David.B
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I think the answer is in "A treatise on Arabic music chiefly from a word by Mikhâil Meshâkah of Damascus" :
p.183 ->
§ 6. On Transposition, or the performing of a tune on another than its natural scale.
Musicians are sometimes obliged to perform tunes on other than their proper key notes. For example, dûgâh and hejâz, whose proper key note is
dûgâh, are usually performed on nawa, in order, by a higher pitch, to give more pleasure to the hearer. This change is sometimes necessary. As, when
a double tune, which in more than one octave, is keyed on a high note. Shed-'arabân, for example, whose key note is dûgâh, requires the voice to
ascend to the response to huseiny, which is extremely difficult for most performers, and even if accomplished, produces an unpleasant effect upon the
hearer. Hence this tune is generally performed on yegâh or 'ösheirân."
p.185 ->
§1. Melodies keyed on Yegâh.
2. Shed-`arabân. This is in fact hejâz repeated in two octaves, to render the pitch easy for the singer. Its notes are 8, 8b, 8, 11, 10a, 8b, 8, 12,
12b, 12, 11, 10a, 8b, 8, 7, 5b, 5, 4, 3a, 2,1."
My own way :
Nawa (G), Hisâr (Ab), Nawa (G), Mâhûr (c), Nihuft (B), Hisâr (Ab), Nawa (G), Muhaiyar (d), Sumbuleh (eb), Muhaiyar (d), Mâhûr (c), Nihuft (B),
Hisâr (Ab), Nawa (G), Jehârgâh (F), Kurdy (Eb), Dûgâh (D), Rest (C), Kuwesht (BB), `Ösheirân (AA), Yegâh (GG).
If I understand well, this means that Shed-`arabân has four hejâz tetrachord in two octave. The original key note was dûgâh, for the prescriptive
theory at that time. This maqam was certainly named 'Araban, but in practice it seems it was systematically transposed... Q.E.D.
Here it is the descriptive theory !!!
By the way, thanks for the meaning of "Sedd", now it makes sense to me
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Jono Oud N.Z
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Hi.
It is good to have people to be able to talk about these things with.
Here is a quote from the liner notes to 'Tanburi Isak' by Bezmara Ensemble, written by Walter Feldman:
'The name Sed-i Araban means "transposition of [the terkib] 'Araban''... The makam, which began to gain currency
in the later eighteenth century, includes this movement and several others. 'Araban is a secondary mode (terkib) featuring an
augmented second species on the note d (neva).
It never had the status of an independent mode (makam), but appeared with increasing frequency as a modulation during the eighteenth century.
For a number of makams, such as Beyati-'Araban, Karcigar. 'Araban as part of the essential structure, as well as Beyati
itself'.
Also Feldman compares Ancient Huzzam (a terkib on the third note of Hicaz) to the new Huzzam; 'Hizar Aga termed it
"Huzzam-i Rumi," to distinguish it from his "Huzzam," a completely different makam (a compound of 'Araban and
Segah) which is known today by that name'.
And:
'...17th century collection of a variant of Uzzal on d (neva),...
Despite the ubiquitousness of this modal phenomenon in the modern repertoire (called 'Araban), it is almost unknown in the notated 17th
century corpus and is not described by Cantemir in his treatise.'.
Both from 'Music of the Ottoman Court', by Walter Feldman.
(An excellent book!)
I found one piece in 'Araban itself though.
Here it is.
It seems that Uzzal was the more common of the Hijaz modes in the 17th century, Hijaz existing as well though .
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David.B
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It seems both theories match !
I must read what you wrote more carefully... And the score is really interesting, is it a part of -> http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=12134 ?
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Jono Oud N.Z
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For sure.
Sorry, I didn't put that one in the book.
I will transpose it and attach soon though.
It would be good to get another piece or two in that maqam too.
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David.B
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I'm interested by these old pieces for the same reasons as yours...
Right now I'm studying -> http://www.mikeouds.com/audio/real/george_abyad_rast.rm
To me it sounds more like a Suznak Samai... Do you have this piece ?
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David.B
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Here it is the Samai (Shadd 'Araban) I've worked with...
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Jono Oud N.Z
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I have the George Abyad album too.
I got some of his CD's in Damascus two years ago.
It is definitely Suznak, I always liked that piece.
I am not sure of the composer though, I will look into it.
It is obviously an excerpt from a Samai Suznak piece.
The Shadaraban piece looks interesting, good to see one that doesn't need transposing.
Do you know the composer? Is there a 6/8 part?
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Jono Oud N.Z
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I have been listening to a Mevlevi Ayin in Hijazkar.
The album is by Ahmet Calisir.
Here is the score.
It seems like the second Selam modulates (from Hijazkar) into Shadaraban, touching on Nahawand and to then Rast Panjgah in the third Selam.
Attachment: hicazkar_a_ahmet_calisir.pdf (391kB)
This file has been downloaded 144 times
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David.B
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About George Abyad, he uses to play excerpt... This is why I prefer to see the whole piece. When we play his track number 6 "Shat Arabân", it's like
the maqam does not duplicate at the octave... The whole score of the samai doesn't accredit this thesis. Here you "give water to my mill" with all
these scores
When I've finished with track number 1, I'm about 10 seconds from the end 
I'll make further investigation about the Suznak piece at the beginning.
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spartan
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In D' Erlanger book SeddAraban is analysed like 4 consecutive Hijaz tetrachords form Yegah to Gerdaniye , but with some more options and I think this
is the Arab approach.
One Hijaz tetrachord from Yegah
one Nawathar pentachord from Rast (instead of Hijaz on dugah)
one Hijaz tetrachord from Neva and
one Nawathar pentachord from Gerdanyie (instead of Hijaz on Muhayer)
ofcourse there are modulations like Rast or Nahawand instead of Nawathar.
d' Erlanger writes that the characteristic of Seddaraban is the Nawathar on Do (both Rast and Gerdanyie I assume)
Melodic movement : Hijaz on Neva, then back to Nawathar on Rast and then Nawathar on Gerdaniye . From the upper pentachord descending movement with
modulations like Rast and Nahawand on Do.
My french are not the best maybe David can correct me
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David.B
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spartan, what you wrote seems correct... I should be on my boring dissertation (nothing to do with music), but I couldn't resist with the Internet
connected -> http://joseph.dubreuil.free.fr/guitare/index.php/component/rokdownl...
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