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omazuz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 145
Registered: 5-20-2007
Location: Israel-Tel Aviv
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'Manol"1904 for sale
"Manol" 1904,l .The Oud was bought for 6000$ and I will sell it for 5000$.
The Oud is located in Israel,and I'm not interested in shipping the Oud abroad.
The price is not negotiable,however,if the purchaser comes from America,he will be reimbursed 2/3 of the flight ticket.
A purchaser from Europe will be reimbursed the entire amount of the ticket. For a purchaser from Israel the cost will be 4500$.
I'm having trouble compressing the sound file so i will sent it by request.
Attachment: manol.mp3 (951kB)
This file has been downloaded 397 times
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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Hello,
Would you please post a clear photo or two of the label inside?
Thank you,
Mavrothi
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omazuz
Oud Junkie
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I sent you utu
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Greg
Administrator
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Dear Omazuz,
Congratulations, this looks like a wonderful antique instrument.
Would you be prepared to submit high quality close-up photographs of several aspects of this oud for verification by an expert?
I had in mind Dr. Cengiz Sarikus, as he is very familair with Manols.
Regards,
Greg
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omazuz
Oud Junkie
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Dear Greg and other members of the forum,
Indeed such an oud deserves more professional pictures I will post some of them later on this evening.
Honorable Dr. Sarikus is certainly the ultimate expert for Manols and other antique ouds. In fact this oud was bought from him by my friend Michael
Avital so definitely he can and will assure the authenticity of this gem.
I am sure you all have noticed that the oud is strung and tuned for arabic tuning so it is obvious that the oud sounds wonderfull in turkish tuning as
well
Best regards
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aytayfun
Oud Junkie
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Absolutely Manol. But not sure about the bridge. We had to see the sr,tring holes of the bridge. If it has wo holes for yegah location than its
original. The shape of the bridge from the picture is not consistent wih Manol. we had to see more clear pictures.
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
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aytayfun
Oud Junkie
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I think that the master used walnut and plum.
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
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aytayfun
Oud Junkie
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The label is also a classic Manol. (without signature) )
Dr. Tayfun AYDIN
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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Hi,
I think this instrument is beautiful in both sound and appearance, and your playing omazuz is wonderful.
However, the label looks like another label I have seen from a known forgery. The tear is in the exact same position (b/c it is a photocopy) and in
this label they have even tried to cover the original photocopied date "1904" by writing "1905" over it.
I am not saying that I am 100% certain your oud is not by Emmanuel Venios (Manol), but it is very worrying that the label seems to be "familiar."
Since this oud was from Dr. Sarikus' shop, I hope he can clarify what's going on.
Thanks, and great playing again by omazuz.
Mavrothi
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
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omazuz
Oud Junkie
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Dear Dr. Sarikus
Please put some light on the subject.
This oud came from your shop and you are the person that can clarify the matter.
btw I wish I could play like this but the wonderfull playing is by Udi Nizar Rohana.....
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omazuz
Oud Junkie
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Dear Dr. Sarikus
I read my last post and it looks to me a little bit vague.
The question is very simple is Mavrothis right// is the oud fake//
Is this sad smily of Spyros in place//
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
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Hello Omazuz,
if something like that [I mean the oud not to be original],than that is very sad,and that will bring the question of how many fake ouds with labels of
Manol exist.....
My Face was a wonderind and sad face at the same time.
The price for these instruments sometimes is really high,and believe me I know from my own experience.
I hardly wait to see the end of this discution,because is very interesting and with a lot of suspence.
Warmest Regards
Spyros
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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Hi,
I have to say, through all of this discussion (here & over email) Ofer (omazuz) has continued to have such a great attitude. I really appreciate
it, and the positive and cordial discussion we've been having from the beginning. This is great to see, and I believe regardless all will work out
for the best. Ofer, you have a great spirit! And Udi Nizar, health to your hands!
Ofer has asked me to help post some more pictures of the oud, and here is the first batch. Those of you who are most knowledgeable on Manol ouds and
others made in the last 50-100 years are welcome to make your observations.
Thank you,
Mavrothi
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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The remaining pictures:
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veyselmaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 273
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Location: turkey
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please wait for response ...
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Luttgutt
Oud Junkie
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Omazuz!
I hope all works out to the best!
Keep the good spirit!
I think this is a nice oud anyway!
Best of luck
The wood might be dead, but the oud is alive.
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Ararat66
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Fingers crossed but what a beautiful looking and sounding oud whatever the outcome ... I suppose the only difference would be the final price because
the sound is the sound
Amazing playing from Nizar.
Leon
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spyrosc
Oud Junkie
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Dear Mavro,
I'm not sure I understand your argument. The label that omazuz is showing on his oud says 1904 and is not overwritten with 1905.
The label you are showing, which I don't know exactly where it comes from, is the one with the overwritting.
Why does that make omazuz's oud suspect ? Am I missing something? His oud label could have been copied by another party totally unbeknownst to him, or
even before he bought it, or even before the previous owner bought it.
Sorry if this is a stupid question.
Spyros C.
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Ararat66
Oud Junkie
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Just a thought, but could the 'fake' 1905 label have been copied from the 'original' label on Omazuz's 1904 oud ???
Tantalising thought.
Leon
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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Hi Spyrosc -
As I said previously, the tear in both labels is exactly the same (that was the 1st red flag). And since the known forgery clearly also originally
had the year 1904, this makes both labels exactly the same. Same tear. Same year.
The fact that the known forgery had a different year written over the photocopied year just made it 100% clear that it was fake. It's easy to just
focus on that b/c upon close inspection the hand written "1905" is so clearly a forgery.
*edit* - To clarify more - the known forged label was from an oud offered to me for sale a few years ago, which was located in Turkey. That
instrument, and two others also described to me to be authentic Manols, had other clear issues too. The sound boards looked very new for one thing.
As far as I know, those instruments had nothing to do with Dr. Sarikus or his workshop.
Could omazuz's label be the original that was used for the photocopies? Possibly, but I think it is reasonable to point out that they are identical.
Also, I think it is more likely that the authentic, ripped, 1904 label came from a damaged Manol bowl w/out soundboard, but that is just a theory.
Also, we should remember that a 'younger' oud can look as old as 100 years old. I am fortunate to own a 1963 Karibyan which looks 100 years old, even
though it is really around 50 years old. *end of edit*
Thanks,
Mavrothi
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veyselmaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 273
Registered: 12-4-2007
Location: turkey
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omazuz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 145
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Location: Israel-Tel Aviv
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What's up doc?
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veyselmaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 273
Registered: 12-4-2007
Location: turkey
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hi eveybody ,
i have read your whole comments and i became sad.
i have repered 551 manol ouds from 1966 till now.
Also i saw a lot of forgery untill now.
most of this ouds were terrible stuations and are not enough for playing. We complate some of thems bars , resettas , allso if there is some missing
inlays we repair them as good as we can.
so i can say that its impossible making exactly same copy of manol ouds.because he has very special forum.So i am the only one who knows manol ouds
and also i am writing a book about him and i have his first label which is pictured of manol.
Dear omuzaz
your oud is full original. also you sell it cheap . now you can not find this oud less then 10.000 usd.because it became very difficult to find manol
anymore.
if you want to be sure you can show some luthier who is good at of manol ouds.
when 1905 years oud came to me there was 4 broken pices over body.this broken pieces were changed.so the label was slited from two part.then pasted
again. we didnt do any thing . also i never play to labels.
i realised when i repairing that , this 1905 years oud has repaired three times before me.because i saw one time changed arround rosettas , one time
opened the soundboard and changed some broken part , one time opened saoundboard again and changed same parts second times. actually i realised that
somebody changed the date but i dont understand who did and why overwrite it.
for instance if its written 1894 instead of 1904 we can say that somebody wanted this oud more aged and gets higer price but only one year to future
(not to past) is not important.
i think the master saw the 1904 very waek and wanted to became more clearly but while he was writing he wrete - 5 , instead of - 4 . Also we must
consider these old masters knew Ottoman letters (old alphabeth) better then turkish. so this wrong is normal for them.
finally
both labels are different (look at the picture . there are two tears. not one like omazuz oud )
both oud is original and made of manol.
thanks everybody who comment
Dr. Cengiz Sarikus
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1674
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Location: NJ/NYC
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Hi Dr. Sarikus,
Thank you for replying, I appreciate it. When I first contacted omazuz, I was not aware that either of these ouds came through your shop, let alone
both. Also, when someone says something is a "forgery," some parts could be authentic, but maybe something is not - like the soundboard for example.
I don't see two tears/rips in the "1905" label, could you point out where the second tear is?
Also, isn't it strange that the tear in each label has the exact same shape and path through the letters?
I think to be sure for either label they have to be examined to see if the tears/rips are real or just a photocopied image. If you didn't touch the
labels, it is still possible someone else did something before you isn't it?
Thank you again.
Sincerely,
Mavrothi
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