Bodhi
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Radif study
I wondered if there is anybody who is learning or has learnt the radif on this forum?
I am learning currently from the Dariush Tala'i book with CD's, this book is for setar but I am playing Barbat. I would like to share ideas with
someone and perhaps have someone to ask some pressing questions.
thanks
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Khalid_Salé
Oud Maniac
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I've been intermittently trying to study it using the Tala'i book and the Alizadeh Tar recording as I can't find the CDs for the Tala'i set. I'm
afraid I won't be much help with the 'pressing questions' as my knowledge is still round about the zero mark, but I'd love to hear how you're
approaching it. For example, what note are you using for the Finalis of Shur? The Tar and Setar use G or A, but I wonder if on the oud it might be
allowed to use D to make it like the Arabic Bayati? Otherwise I seem to end up playing all the melody on the G string as though I'm playing a tar.
What do you do on the Barbat, and with which tuning?
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Bodhi
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Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé  | | I've been intermittently trying to study it using the Tala'i book and the Alizadeh Tar recording as I can't find the CDs for the Tala'i set.
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I can copy you the Tala'i Cds and post them to you if you like?
| Quote: Originally posted by Khalid_Salé | | I'm afraid I won't be much help with the 'pressing questions' as my knowledge is still round about the zero mark, but I'd love to hear how you're
approaching it. For example, what note are you using for the Finalis of Shur? The Tar and Setar use G or A, but I wonder if on the oud it might be
allowed to use D to make it like the Arabic Bayati? Otherwise I seem to end up playing all the melody on the G string as though I'm playing a tar.
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Thats exactly what I do!!! seems logical doesn't it. It gives you more options whilst playing. I haven't heard any Oud/Barbat recording of Dastgah-e
Shur but the pitches are changeable for every instrument to fit its range/capabilities. When you use D as finalis of Shur it makes more sense when
you play Dashti and Bayat-e Kord.
BTW you can find some nice examples of Naseer Shamma playing in the Dashti mode on Youtube.
I use standard Arab tuning. I tend to copy tar technique to play in an authentic Persian style.
Perhaps we can share our progress over e-mails? I have spent most of my time on Dastgah-e Nava. It just somehow appeals to me. Also I have learnt
Bayat-e Esfahan and the Daramads of Homayoun, Dashti, Chahargah and Mahur. I also spend alot of time finding examples of certain gushe-ha in
Turkish/Iraqi and Bosnian music which is quite interesting to hear the melodies played in different styles, it opens new perspectives.
here is my e-mail address bodhisundara@googlemail.com
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Masel
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it's nice to hear all this. i play oud and i've studied the whole persian radif. though i haven't memorised it as required i've been through it and
have an "understanding" of it. my teacher for it is a tar player who has studied the radif and azeri mugham (very similar but much harder, it is a
good idea to learn the persian radif first) in azerbaijan.
i am now learning azeri mugham (actually right now i am in baku azerbaijan).
i think it is hard to learn radif without a teacher as there are many small details you can miss, but i guess it is possible. it is good to learn from
tar/setar, the trills and ornaments in the radif are functional, they give the phrases their rhythm which comes from the rhythm of the singing. this
is a whole dimension of learning that does not exist in arabic/turkish traditions. you will discover many new trills and ornaments, but be careful it
doesn't ruin your risha, for me the best is still arabic oud..i do not like persian style oud playing (too "clean"), but just my opinion.
i think there is no problem in playing shur on re instead of sol, radif is only pedagogical material, it is not the "only" right way to play. it is
really the deepest method of learning eastern music that i know. my teacher always said that as bach's work is the key to understanding all western
harmony so the radif is key to understanding all eastern maqam.
good luck
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Khalid_Salé
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Yeah, I kinda worried that I wouldn't be able to get it without a teacher because those trills and ornaments do seem so standard in all the recordings
I've got, as though they're a very key part of it all, and it's hard to get them just right without a guide. But I'm happy just to blunder through to
learn a few nice phrases and understand a bit of the structure.
Azeri mugham... yeah man! There's a nice traditional music program in Morocco, and they brought a trio from Azerbaijan that just blew my mind. I got
the Sakine Ismailova INEDIT CD, which is amazing. The Uzebek style is also very nice, there's a singer called Monajat Yulchieva who is right up there
with Umm Kulthum and the rest in my eyes:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1d45w_monajat-yultchieva_music
Possibly the Uzbek vocal style is a little easier on Western ears than the Azeri, because the tahrir is turned down a notch.
Bodhi, I'd love to correspond on this. I got into it for a while (on nay as well, using the recordings of Jamshed Andalibi), but I sort of sidetracked
when Mevlevi music grabbed me by the ear. But I'd love to pick it up again. You're well ahead of me, but I'll try to catch up. I'd like to at least
learn the Daramad of each dastgah and get to the point where I can recognize and tell them from each other by ear. Luckily I managed to find the Talai
recordings last night after a lot of searching, but thanks for your generous offer to post them to me. I'll email you today inshallah.
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Masel
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yes monajat yulchieva is amazing, i really like her and uzbeki shashmaqam.
you can probably learn radif without a teacher if that's your situation. i don't know if you ever go to europe but there are many iranian musicians
living in europe, it's possible to take lessons, if you realy want to dig deep into it. but even if not i think like you said more or less every gushe
has it's secrets to unlock, and even just learning the phrases is good.
i would like to share your correspondance, if you like, write to me as well, yanivperot@gmail.com
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Bodhi
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| Quote: Originally posted by Masel | | i think it is hard to learn radif without a teacher as there are many small details you can miss, but i guess it is possible. |
I know its hard. I have been going at it with various books for about a year
and a half. The last few months I was so frustrated with it that I have pretty much ignored the radif (well tried to but like a worm it was there in
my mind). I was saying to my wife in exasperation that "I don't think this is possible without a Master" and in some respects it is true, but when you
find a music that finally brings you that feeling of being at home WHAT ELSE TO DO? Carry on pushing, THATS WHAT TO DO!!! )
| Quote: Originally posted by Masel |
it is good to learn from tar/setar, the trills and ornaments in the radif are functional, they give the phrases their rhythm which comes from the
rhythm of the singing. this is a whole dimension of learning that does not exist in arabic/turkish traditions. you will discover many new trills and
ornaments, but be careful it doesn't ruin your risha, for me the best is still arabic oud..i do not like persian style oud playing (too "clean"), but
just my opinion. |
Like I said I learn mostly by listening to Tar and Setar, infact I barely listen to Oud music. This may sound strange but I was never really
interested in Arab or Turkish music (not that I didnt listen to it or dislike it altogether) but the Oud is the only instrument I wish to play. I
personally like the Persian Oud style, which is quite modern players like Nariman definitely play like Arabs (I believe his family emigrated from
Iraq) and I dont enjoy him so much. Ostad Shahidi and M.R. Ebrahimi are good middle grounds, neither too sharp like an Arab and more heavy handed than
a modern persian style player.
| Quote: Originally posted by Masel | i think there is no problem in playing shur on re instead of sol, radif is only pedagogical material, it is not the "only" right way to play. it is
really the deepest method of learning eastern music that i know. my teacher always said that as bach's work is the key to understanding all western
harmony so the radif is key to understanding all eastern maqam.
good luck |
Thanks for clarifying that for us. I absolutely agree with what you say, the Persian Maqam being preserved in a relatively unchanged form for about
1000 years, due to the social restrictions on being a musician, has kept the heart of the Near Eastern music intact. It also explains its deeply
intimate sound, like you are playing to your beloved in a candle-lit room so the neighbours don't hear. So no playing the radif like its heavy
metal  and more playing it like you are in the temple .
Can I ask you some questions from time to time as and when they come up?
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Masel
Oud Junkie
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of course i would be happy to answer questions, if you two correspond include me, and anyway better to write me in email because i don't check these
forums everyday.
about radif i don't think it has remained unchanged for a 1000 years (even though it is more romantic to think it has). there is not even one radif,
there are a few (alizadeh and talai play the radif of mirza abdollah), and in fact each master can organise his own radif, though in essence they
don't really change so much.
i know that azeri mugham for example has changed a LOT in the past 60 years, and the azeri tar as we know it is no older than 100-150 years. and the
development of the instrument along with western influences has changed alot of the music. compare ramiz guliyev (modern style) with bahram mansurov
(old style). i think persian music might have changed less but still no one knows what it was like 1000 years ago.
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Bodhi
Oud Junkie
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I did say "Persian Maqam being preserved in a relatively unchanged form for about 1000 years" note I do not say radif as it did not exist untill the
Qajar period. Ofcourse some changes have occured but it seems general consensus that it is probably similar melody models to the ones played before
they began to cast music to the side and consider it degenerate in many periods. This is backed up by the same modes in Turkish music having the same
melody model (seyir I believe in Turkish) for instance Garduniyeh (persian) is identical to Gerdaniye (Turkish) you can find good examples in mevlevi
music, also Nahoft (persian) and Nuhuft (Turkish), Gavesht (Persian) and Gavest (Turkish) this is just off the top of my head. Anyhow its true that it
is nice in a romantic sense and I in no way meant that the style and instrumentation had not changed. To err on the side of caution lets cut it from
1000 years to 600-700 that things have probably been held relatively similar ending at the Qajar period. The same as you say for the Azeri Mugham can
be said for Persian music that the last 50-100 years has seen changes in such a massive way that the form has taken a new life.
Be sure we will include you in our correspondance, it is nice to have someone with direct experience and access to the tradition.
Khalid_sale, these are exactly my sentiments "I'd like to at least learn the Daramad of each dastgah and get to the point where I can recognize and
tell them from each other by ear". It seems we are pointing in the same direction who is ahead of who is not possible to say for example You may have
gained some understanding which I have not whilst I have just learnt more notes. We all gather in different ways which can be mutually beneficial.
Look forward to hearing from you.
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