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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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Location: Iran - Karaj
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Question about woods
i was wondering if anyone has ever played an oud with hard maple fingerboard. i've seen guitars with maple fingerboards but guitar is fretted anyway.
can maple be as good as ebony? wouldn't it get scratched or damaged soon? if you have any experience, please share it.
one other question. years age, i talked to Moaana Jehad (oud player from Baghdad) he said many ouds made there have "El Sism" fingerboard and bowl. he
said it's a kind of wood which is brought from India. in arabic they write it like "السیسم". does anyone know what
is this wood called in english? i guess it's Indian rosewood...
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Alfaraby
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Indeed, "Sisam" is Indian rosewood.
Even ebony & "sisam" fingerboards become worn out as a result of intensive playing and need to be treated/flattened. As hard as maple might be,
it's not as hard as rosewood or ebony, so it's not supposed to bear massive pressure.
Therefore, I wouldn't recommend maple for FB.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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spyblaster
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so it's sisam not sism. thanks a lot. modern arabic you know, no fatha 
there is hard maple fingerboard here. i love it's snowy color. i with it was hard enough 
http://www.madinter.com/b2c/index.php?page=pp_producto.php&md=0...
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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jdowning
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Not sure about wood supplies in the Middle East regions but the 'Indian Rosewood' most generally used for guitar construction - including fingerboards
is 'East India Rosewood' (Dalbergia Latifolia). Sisoo (or Sisam) is another true rosewood from India and Iran (Dalbergia Sisoo).
The wear properties of wood are related to its hardness (measured as the force required to press a steel ball of standard size to half its depth into
the wood side grain). Wood is a variable material so hardness can vary within the same species. However some general published data gives hardness
values as, for example 'soft' maple - 950 (pounds force), 'hard' maple - 1450, Sisoo Rosewood - 1500 to1780, East India Rosewood - 3170, Boxwood -
2800.
So 'hard' maple (sugar maple or rock maple) is relatively a bit on the soft side for a fingerboard but not much softer than Sisoo - although the
surface hardness may be considerably increased by application of a thin penetrating 'superglue'.
Light coloured fingerboards have the disadvantage of showing dirt from the fingers and strings. A fingerboard will wear over time regardless of
whether or not metal frets are fitted.
If a light coloured fingerboard is preferred Boxwood is one alternative - hard and close grained it takes a high polish and is nearly twice the
hardness of maple. I have successfully used boxwood for fingerboards.
One attraction of maple is that it is readily available with high grain figuring (flame) which might be considered visually attractive for a
fingerboard.
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mavrothis
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This is very interesting, as I've just received some photographs of my latest oud in progress by Dimitris Rapakousios. Needless to say, I am
incredibly excited.
The finger board is a gorgeous maple which will be protected by several coats of finish to keep it clean and wear-free.
The body is very old mulberry with maple spacers/accents, the face is cedar, and the bridge, pickguard and fingerboard will all be curly maple. The
pegs will also be light-colored wood, either boxwood or maple.
I'll post more pictures when it is completed. I really can't believe how beautiful it is looking already...many thanks to Dimitris for such great
attention to detail and for his creativity.
Thanks,
Mavrothi
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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Thanx a lot for all your useful info friends 
it's a bit strange for me coz i have never seen any oud made of sissoo in Iran. i haven't ever heard it's name (maybe it has a different name here).
Iranian ouds' bowls usually are made of maple, walnut and a wood we call "foofel" (فوفل . google translated this name to "Betel nut". i've also seen fingerboards and pegs made of this Betel nut (foofel,
whatever). it's dark brown anyway.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Jody Stecher
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"Sisam" is generally pronounced "shee-shahm" in India and when rendered in the Roman alphabet (as this message is) is usually spelled *shisham*. As
jdowning has pointed out, the word represents the wood of two different trees. One of them (dalbergia latifolia) is generally called "rosewood" in
(most parts of) India, – no matter what language is being spoken – and the other (dalbergia sissoo) is called "shisham". Confusion occurs
because in some regions and languages of western India (Gujarati and Marathi for instance) "shisham" is the word for rosewood (dalbergia
latifolia).
Shisham (dalbergia sisoo) is used to make tabla or dayan, the right hand drum of a the tabla pair.
Shisham and "Indian Rosewood" do not look alike.
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
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very sexy oud Mavrothis, congratulations
do you know what is the top made of?
Mulberry bowl looks very good. here in Iran they use mulberry for Tar generally. i don't know why they don't use it for Oud.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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mavrothis
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| Quote: |
do you know what is the top made of?
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The sound board is cedar.
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jdowning
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Apparently Dalbergia Sisoo in Iran is called جگ Jag according to Wikipedia (where it is said to grow in southern Persia). Perhaps the tree
is now extinct in Iran?
The scope for a fingerboard of dramatic appearance is a possibility with hard maple - 'bird's eye' maple might be a good choice as the figuring is
relatively uniform. The highly figured maples may also be more absorbant and allow deeper penetration if any hardening chemicals are used? There are a
number of wood hardeners on the market - designed to harden rotted softwoods (so that they can be repaired rather than replaced). I have some wood
hardener to hand as well as some figured maple so will run some tests to see if chemical hardening will work.
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spyblaster
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you're an alive book! thanx a lot
i will ask from my resources about Jag. maybe someone needs to try this on ouds...
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Peyman
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From what Naser Shirazi told me, "foofel" is Boxwood. It's dense and durable and in Iran they use it to make parts for setars, such as fingerboards.
It has a nice creamy brown color.
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Matthias
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Hello,
in spite as it is written in german, but may be you can use google for translating or know a german speaking person, I can recommend you the following
information page:
http://www.holzhandel.de/term/holz_abc/
You get there a lot of technical informations and find the differend kinds with their latin names and the area of growing.
The fingerboards of guitars made from maple which I know are varnished, I suppose with 2 component varnish. The most famous one is the
stratocaster.
I once used boxwood on lutes which worked well. The only problem is the getting dirty by time.
I personal prefer brazilian rosewood ( dalberga nigra ) for fingerboards instead of ebony. My impression is, that this makes less problems as it will
not have so quick "holes". Are there others who had the same experience?
Matthias
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jdowning
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No doubt Brazilian rosewood would make a good fingerboard material as it is darker and less open grained than East India Rosewood. My experience with
the Brazilian variety is that it is an 'oily wood' - so turns beautifully for making pegs but which presents gluing problems - glued joint surfaces
need to be carefully degreased with solvent.
The wood is now a protected endangered species so is costly and difficult to obtain. I purchased mine from a timber importer in the UK in the early
1970's before the CITES restrictions came into force. It was sold (like gold and silver) by weight - I wish that I had bought more at the time!
At the same time I purchased two logs of 'Persian Boxwood' - again sold by weight. Boxwood is yellowish in colour, has no visible grain and is very
hard and so takes a fine polish. Consequently, it takes a long time to season and become stable.
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Matthias
Oud Junkie
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Hello JD,
yes I know that well with the brazilian rosewood. After the rstrictions started, I had to register all my rosewood I had on stock, as otherwise I
would never could use it. I suppose you did the same. And every time I use some of this material, I have to say how much took and a special paper is
made for the instrument which has to stay with it. Without you'll have the risk, that it can be confiscated.
What are your experiences about the different of ebony and braz. rosewood using it for oud fingerboards?
Matthias
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jdowning
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Of the true rosewoods I have not used Brazilian Rosewood for finger boards only East India Rosewood. The ebony that I use for fingerboards is
plantation grown African Ebony that I purchased some years ago from a small importer for reasonable cost. The ebony was only partially seasoned in
sawn billets when received so it was immediately cut into fingerboard blanks and smaller sections for banding etc to more quickly fully air dry -
which, nevertheless, has taken a few years. Unfortunately the importer has long since gone out of business - so there is no more where that came from.
I prefer this species of ebony to East India Rosewood as it is finer grained and uniformly black in colour.
As I understand it, most of the Brazilian Rosewood coming onto the market these days is being recovered from old tree stumps - so perhaps not the same
uniform quality as it once was?
One disadvantage in working rosewoods is that the oils in the wood can cause skin and respiratory allergies - so care in handling and dust extraction
facilities should be used when sawing the material.
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fernandraynaud
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For what it's worth, guitar maple necks are fairly common, but maple fingerboards are tricky. Without varnish, they would immediately get ugly grey
spots. With varnish, the fact that the strings contact the frets more than the wood, and that the frets are rather close together, helps, but even so,
the varnish wears, and the maple takes on a dirty look.
[file]25263[/file]
Fretless bass players discovered epoxy and cyanoacrylate coating for fingerboards to prevent rapid wear, and those work well, especially epoxy. But
the softer coatings, like Tung or Tru-Oil, rest on the hardness of the fingerboard, and need to be touched up say once a year, even on rosewood. I
think it will take some effort to prevent string wear and finger oils from turning a maple fingerboard unattractive.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Here is an interesting paper by the US Forestry Service on the subject of chemically treatment of woods to improve their properties. The procedure for
hardening guitar fingerboards using Methyl Methacrylate seems quite complicated requiring special equipment (heated vacuum chambers) to ensure deep
penetration of the chemical rather than just a thin surface coating. Thin coatings likely will have little immediate or long term effect on hardness.
The report mentions epoxy (again a complex procedure involving lamination of veneers to ensure adequate depth of penetration) but not cyanoacrylate
(superglue). As the latter hardens very quickly (within seconds) I suspect that penetration of the chemical might be shallow - although oud
fingerboards need not be more than a few millimeters in thickness.
[file]25265[/file]
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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For some reason this page keeps losing the post when it refreshes, but here's a summary. People coat fretless bass fingerboards so wound strings
don't destroy them, same issue as on the oud.
Epoxy is usually brushed on then sanded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgzqTBd1JPQ&feature=youtube_gdat...
A pro job is usually buffed to a glassy smooth. The coating is thick.
There's an epoxy called Envirotex light that can be poured onto a (perfectly horizontal) fingerboard with taped edges, and produces a glossy finish
with no buffing.
Cyanoacrylate Superglue is usually applied as a gel, and spread with e.g. a credit card, then sanded and buffed. Again, the coating is thick, though
it's not as hard as epoxy.
I have not tried this, but a different approach would be to use the "water-thin" superglue. It wicks into sanded wood like a sponge. If enough of it
is used, it stands to reason that it would turn the top layers of the maple into a much harder acrylic-wood blend. Using that approach instead of a
coating wouldn't even require all that finishing. This is worth trying on a test piece of that maple.
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reminore
Oud Junkie
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for what its worth, فوفل (fufal) is translated as betel in my 19th. c steingass persian dictionary...but i never heard of it
used for anything else than making paan (betel nut chaw - a mild stimulant which is found all across the sub continent).
i just had a new oud made by tasos theodorakis, but with a traditional ebony fingerboard...i just couldn't see infusing wood with solution that
includes a cyanide product - call me old fashioned...
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fernandraynaud
Oud Junkie
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It's not cyanide ;-) The way superglue works is by having reactive C-N tails on an acrylic polymer that bond easily to other materials. These are
called "cyano" bonds, but have nothing to do with cyanide. Even ebony wears, and will require re-leveling if no coating is used. Since that's tricky
to do right, some prefer a bit of prevention.
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jdowning
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Curious that there have been zero downloads of the previously posted informative paper by the experts in the US Forestry Service on chemical treatment
of woods - including a specific reference to guitar fingerboards
So here it is again for those interested and wishing to learn something.
[file]25276[/file]
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reminore
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that's actually not quite correct. the jury seems to be out on the 'complete' safety of cyanoacrylates...cyanide is present in all compounds of the
cyano group...as to how dangerous it is...depends on who one speaks with, industry or environmentalists...again, personal choice!
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Brian Prunka
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Reminore,
I think you are being unduly concerned. The jury is not "out" regarding the cyanide component, unless you disregard scientists in favor of quacks. It
is basic questions of organic chemistry, not something that is subject to a lot of differing viewpoints. I am not an expert, but it is quite clear
that this is not a matter of debate in scientific circles. There is a lot of misinformation and fear-mongering by non-experts who do not understand
the chemistry involved and apparently won't listen to those who do.
The EPA, hardly a spokesperson for "industry" has declared beyond any doubt that there are no risks from CA (other than relatively obvious minor ones
of accidental gluing, inhaling fumes, and the strange reaction it has to cotton).
"Cyanide" refers to a carbon atom triple-bonded to a nitrogen atom. This structure occurs in many different compounds, and in most cases is harmless
because it is not accessible to our body.
For more information read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitriles
If you really believe that CA is dangerous, you should also avoid brussels sprouts, almonds, cabbage, cauliflower, cassava and many other foods
(including anything fortified with iron, like many breakfast cereals), also regular table salt usually has it. Cyanide is also present in many
prescription medications, so check your medicine cabinet. It's present in the pits, leaves and wood of many fruit trees and their fruit (apple,
cherry, peach, etc).
Remember that dose makes the poison, so even if miniscule traces of cyanide somehow were being absorbed, our body has the natural ability to fight
small amounts of organic toxins without ill effect. Cyanide in particular is pretty easily cleared from our bodies by being converted into harmless
compounds, it doesn't build up over time.
My point is that if these cyanide compounds were dangerous, we'd all be dead already, because they are all over the place including much of the food
we eat. But we're not, so I bet the scientists are right.
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reminore
Oud Junkie
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ok brian and fernandreynaud, i'll take both your words on it regarding the ca compound - i know that many toxic substances exist even in a 'natural'
form...
that said - the EPA does not have the backs of the american people - just look at bisphenol A in plastics that is still in use (the EU outlawed its
use years ago). things are not quite as black and white as you believe brian, which is evidenced by the speed with which products and medicines are
approved and then removed from the market...(most american houses built in the 70's used ureaformaldehyde insulation -now known to be a carcinogen-it
was also EPA approved).
anyway, before i start sounding like a kook, i'll stop here. and the irony is, i'm not even a fanatic green, but more fatalist in my outlook...
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