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nard
Oud Lover
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Tremolo method
Hi all,
I have been playing around with my oud for almost 2 years now but, for some reason, I can't quite get a smooth tremolo method down. It is easiest on
the first and second course strings (do and sol), but on the three upper courses (re la fa), the reesha has a tendency to "snag" especially on the
up-stroke. I have watched videos, have tried relaxing, holding the reesha at a 45 degree angle, etc., but I am still "snagging" quite a bit.
Any advice?
Thank you so much!
nard
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majnuunNavid
Oud Junkie
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I would recommend first trying to experiment with the grip of your risha. Try holding it slightly tighter, see if that helps, if not, try holding it
looser and see which gives you the best result. If none of that helps, experiment with how much risha is protruding from your index finger and thumb
grip. Try holding it closer to the tip, or a touch farther from the tip, and see what happens.
What material of Risha are you using?
The floppier your risha, the more snag you are going to get. It might be worth investing in a cow horn risha. I find the more rigid and crisp the
risha is, the less snag is created.
Finally, if none of these work, I might suggest you need to be a bit more rough with your tremolo, and really play the thing without being afraid of
the strings. Try playing a really loud tremolo and strum the whole Oud like playing a chord. Be aggressive for a while, and then pull back and control
your tremolo, see if that removes any snag.
I hope some of these suggestions help. I would really like to hear how it goes.
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markus
Oud Maniac
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hello Nard
I had the same problem and was advised to concentrate on a single string usually the lower on on doing the tremolo which has worked for me
best of luck
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Almelaifi
Oud Addict
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Try a different risha, different string set, and even a different oud. All of them have something to do with tremolo.
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franck leriche
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Tremolo is nothing but fast down up strokes.
Practice down up stroke very clean and very slow, then increase step by step.
Don't forget to rest very often.
After more than 30 years being a musician, i've founded i lot of similarity between sport practice and music practice. No one athlete would train
without pauses.....
Pausing for 30 seconds help me a lot lately.
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
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Quote: Originally posted by franck leriche  | Tremolo is nothing but fast down up strokes.
Practice down up stroke very clean and very slow, then increase step by step.
Don't forget to rest very often.
After more than 30 years being a musician, i've founded i lot of similarity between sport practice and music practice. No one athlete would train
without pauses.....
Pausing for 30 seconds help me a lot lately. |
I agree completely. Franck's description above is exactly how I teach the "rashi" (tremolo) to my students. If you are in Oakland, CA, there are a
number of experienced oud players in the area who could meet with you and give you some pointers.
Good luck!
Peace out,
"Udi" John
P.S. How about those Giants?!
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SamirCanada
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I always explain it by comparing to toddlers play that game with door stoppers by <b>rooster</b>ing it first and then releasing it
boingggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. I feel there is a bit of this going on. You need to load the arm with energy to give that initial inertia and release
it while stiffening it and try to maintain it and keep the movement going. The one mistake I see a lot is students who try to ease into the tremolo
without any attack all the while trying to speed up their strokes. it sounds like much and all over the place without that initiall attack.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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PaulS
Oud Junkie
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What a helpful discussion. I have some thoughts too--as someone who is just beginning to have a tremolo but not with consistency.
My analogy is to learning to ride a bike: when you are learning it is a very complex set of skills and getting them all to work at the same time seems
difficult. Once you get it, you wonder what was so difficult.
It seems to be definitely about a combination of attack (with energy) and a relaxation of the arm which allows for the flow of the tremolo to
happen.
But risha type also seems involved. My teacher suggested I leave the hard cow horn risha and go to a thinner type--basically pvc sanded down
carefully--that everyone uses here. That also seems to help.
It seems that some perfect combination of grip and flexibility are required.
I have also done a lot of slow up down trying to speed up and I think that that contributes.
What is most difficult is shifting into and out of a tremolo stroke in a passage....
Ah well...it is a worthwhile thing to work on...
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nard
Oud Lover
Posts: 21
Registered: 7-20-2013
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Wow, thank you!
Hi all,
Wow, thank you for this wonderful advice! I like hearing the different perspectives as well as thinking about the different variables (risha, position
of fingers, the "spring" tactic) and so on.
I was inspired to try it with 3 different reeshas I have - one plastic from amazon.com, one plastic from Oudstrings.com, and one cowhorn from
amazon.com. I recorded it and uploaded it to YouTube in case anyone has feedback on how to improve the technique - you can here the "snags" and gap in
the sound, and I'm not really sure what's going on when that happens.
You can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBumb15URco&feature=youtu.be
Looking forward to more wisdom... thank you!
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
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I cannot see your arm so I cannot be sure but it looks to me that you are trying to move too much bone and flesh. It looks like you are trying to do
tremolo with your entire arm and with a stiff wrist. The wrist is the hinge that allows the "sprooiiing" to take place. The wrist needs to be
released if it is locked. Also it looks as though your upstroke is using more muscle than is necessary. Let your hand "bounce" on the rebound to
position the risha for the next downstroke. By doing that (along with *some* muscle) the upstroke almost plays itself. It also looks like both down
and up strokes are covering more territory than necessary. A finer, smaller, movement will produce better results.
If I may say so, tuning the pairs in true unison (rather than "nearly the same") will produce a relaxing effect on your mind and that will relax your
hand and arm.
| Quote: Originally posted by nard | Hi all,
Wow, thank you for this wonderful advice! I like hearing the different perspectives as well as thinking about the different variables (risha, position
of fingers, the "spring" tactic) and so on.
I was inspired to try it with 3 different reeshas I have - one plastic from amazon.com, one plastic from Oudstrings.com, and one cowhorn from
amazon.com. I recorded it and uploaded it to YouTube in case anyone has feedback on how to improve the technique - you can here the "snags" and gap in
the sound, and I'm not really sure what's going on when that happens.
You can see here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBumb15URco&feature=youtu.be
Looking forward to more wisdom... thank you! |
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franck leriche
Oud Junkie
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Too bad we can't see your full arm, but it looks like you're moving the whole arm.
You wrist is super stiff. You definitely need to practice slowly and relax you wrist.
It would be nice if you could make a video practicing down and up strokes slowly to see if you have the same issue.
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Lysander
Oud Junkie
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I'm with franck on this one. I skimmed the video and it looks like you're trying to move your whole arm to achieve tremolo. Tremolo is an action most
successfully played from a loose, relaxed wrist. It is not achieved from the elbow. The more relaxed you are - your whole body - but mostly your right
wrist and arm, and your left hand, your shoulders etc, the more successfully you can play.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Frank and Jody's observations are in line with my own—your whole arm is moving up and down (possibly from the elbow, possibly from the shoulder, or
both).
Jody and I have had this discussion before, but I disagree with his characterization as the movement coming from the wrist—it is the rotation of the
forearm. We actually agree on the correct motion (I think), just not in how to describe it.
In addition, it looks like you are attempting to play with the risha's tip flat with respect to the strings—this won't work. You need the risha to
be at an angle to the strings.
Rather than working on unmeasured tremolo (as we normally play—the motion is not in tempo, just as fast as you can), you should work on measured
tremolo first. Play up/down with a metronome, starting very slow and gradually increasing the speed.
I find Samir's comment interesting—in my experience the more common problem is starting with too much of an initial attack, which causes the start
of tremolo to sound jumpy and uneven. But I can see the other way being a problem too.
Tremolo is mysterious—it seems impossible at first but if you just practice slow, relaxed up/down with correct technique it just comes out
eventually.
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nard
Oud Lover
Posts: 21
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Location: Oakland, CA
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This is all very amazing advice, especially the points about arm v. wrist v. forearm. I can see this requires returning back to some basics, as some
folks have suggested here. I will re-visit and return to the forum after experimenting a little, perhaps with a video with a wider viewing angle.
Thank you!
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Do you have a teacher? Or at least a more experienced oudist you could get together with? This is something that is difficult to learn strictly on
your own. Even just seeing someone up close doing it is helpful . . .
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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I think it likely that Brian and I are making the same motion. Here is why I describe it as I do: The wrist hand can move from the wrist in several
ways. If the arm and hand are held straight so that the back of the hand and the corresponding part of the arm are on a continuous plane, the only way
the wrist can move the hand is from side to side; call it "right/left" perhaps. The forearm is relatively still and unchanging during this motion.
Now if the hinge of the wrist is relaxed so that the hand bends in a similar way as the peghead of an oud forms an angle to the plane of the neck and
fingerboard, a new form of movement is introduced. Once a bit of angle has been introduced and the player makes the very same "right/left" motion that
was made with an unbent wrist, it will be seen that the forearm also moves. The move to the right creates a downstroke. As it moves, the underside of
the hand vanishes from sight and so does the underside of the forearm. When the player reverses and moves the hand-with-the-bent wrist to the left,
this creates an upstroke, and this upstroke as it proceeds reveals more and more of the underside of the forearm. The movement of the forearm feels
—to me, at least— to be a *consequence* of the wrist motion and not the *cause* of the motions that cause the down and up strokes of the risha.
| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka |
Jody and I have had this discussion before, but I disagree with his characterization as the movement coming from the wrist—it is the rotation of the
forearm. We actually agree on the correct motion (I think), just not in how to describe it.
/rquote] |
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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You describe it well, Jody, and I can see why you think of it as you do. However, do you not agree that it might be confusing to describe it as wrist
motion when in fact your hand is not moving at the wrist? I think that you are correct in your analysis of the motion, however, in the end it is the
forearm that rotates and the wrist itself remains essentially fixed (except to switch strings, as I noted in the previous thread). Even in your
description, you are talking about moving the hand/wrist as one unit, not the wrist joint itself. Still, you are right about what it "feels" like.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | | You describe it well, Jody, and I can see why you think of it as you do. However, do you not agree that it might be confusing to describe it as wrist
motion when in fact your hand is not moving at the wrist? I think that you are correct in your analysis of the motion, however, in the end it is the
forearm that rotates and the wrist itself remains essentially fixed (except to switch strings, as I noted in the previous thread). Even in your
description, you are talking about moving the hand/wrist as one unit, not the wrist joint itself. Still, you are right about what it "feels" like.
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You are right about what it looks like. I have just verified that. But to answer your question about what would be confusing I will have to
contemplate it for a day or two. In general I find it confusing to try to repeat an action according to what it looks like and easier to do it
according to what it feels like. But then I have never claimed to be "normal". In this specific instance, which is trying to repeat an action
according to a written description, I just now tested it and found that if I try to generate the oud playing motion from the forearm, that the entire
forearm moves and that is more motion than the job requires.
However, in apparent contradiction to what I have just written, I learned my right hand technique, many years ago from watching oud players up close
and imitating their motions and to me it looked as though the motion originated in the wrist.
Anyway, we have now verified that we each play oud with the same right hand technique.
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SamirCanada
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I made a simple video with an exercise I find works for me. Going up and down scales. http://youtu.be/T7B04gWo270
Also I noticed in the video you started some tremolos on the upstroke. I think this is a mistake. Maybe some advanced players can develop a way to
make it sound good but I don't think so.
I really like what Brian and Frank said and they are related. Use specific time measures basically hold the tremolo for 2 beats at first then extend
to 3 and then 4. This is I portant because it's rare you will hold tremolos in music for much longer and it gets you used to structure. I find
beginners also hold tremolos to slide between notes, this also rarely happens in the traditional music played on Oud.
I agree with Frank very much that it's like when training athletics if you don't take breaks or try to hold the tremolo to long you get tired and your
form will suffer.
@samiroud Instagram
samiroudmaker@gmail.com
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nard
Oud Lover
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New video
Hi all!
Thank you, Samir, for the video, and Jody, Brian, and everyone else for the great advice.
I recorded a new video trying some of these exercises with a wider viewing angle so that more of the arm is visible. Downside is now you can't really
see the risha but at least you can see the arm motions.
I am still not really sure I understand whether I'm correctly using my wrist/forearm as opposed to elbow. Hopefully this helps...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqdvWv5CFz0
Thanks everyone for being generous with your time and expertise.
Best wishes,
nard
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Jody Stecher
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On the plus side
a) it looks like you are using less arm than appeared to be the case in the previous video.
b) compared to the previous video, fewer pairs of strings are out of tune.
On the minus side
a) you are not doing the same timing as Samir.
b) you are beginning your tremolo with an upstroke. Practice as slowly as you need to go so that your mind can keep track of what is up and what is
down and so that you are sure you are starting with down.
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abc123xyz
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You know, the technique of tremolo on the oud deserves a whole book of its own, and is very similar, if not identical, to what the guitarists have
recently started referring to as "sarod picking", one of them having apparently observed the technique being used on the sarod and finding it superior
to whatever method guitarists normally use.
There are numerous videos by guitarists on Youtube trying to explain the technique, and some of them might be useful to anybody trying to master
tremolo on the oud, their being intended for guitar not withstanding.
Basically, and I say basically because I'm sure there's more to it than I realize or describe here, the forearm rapidly rotates clockwise then
counterclockwise again and again while staying more or less stationary horizontally. There's muscle tension in the arm, and in the hand to maintain a
hold on the plectrum, but the wrist joint itself is kept loose, acting as a sort of shock absorber.
Having muscle tension in the forearm and in the hand, but not in the wrist in between them, is somewhat unnatural for the human body, and is part of
the reason the technique is difficult to learn.
When the wrist is stiff, the plectrum tends to "trip" on or "snag" the string every third or forth pass across the string, I suppose due to
microscopic differences in the angle at which it hits the strings each time that are different from the last, where the string is in its oscillatory
cycle, etc. However if the wrist is loose and the hand is able to give very slightly with each strike, there is some accommodation between the
plectrum and string that eliminates catching.
The arm and hand actions involved are so minute and therefore rather difficult to see on video.
My own tremolo's far from perfect, but I discovered how to do it accidentally. I was trying to play several downstrokes quickly in succession, but my
fingernail (I don't use a plectrum) would strike the string again on the way back up, producing a perfect tremolo. As soon as I tried to
play a tremolo that way, however, I would trip and catch on the string again as usual, lol. For this reason I suspect that maybe the wrist stiffens
slightly on the downstroke part of the tremolo, or alternately more force is exerted by the forearm muscle at that point, I'm not sure which.
This is one of those things I think would profit from attaching electrodes to the arms of a few oud maestros and making x-rays videos of them while
they play, lol.
David
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by abc123xyz | You know, the technique of tremolo on the oud deserves a whole book of its own, and is very similar, if not identical, to what the guitarists have
recently started referring to as "sarod picking",
Which is particularly remarkable since it has nothing whatever to do with sarod right hand technique. Not only do they misidentify the technique,
they mispronounce sarod to rhyme with clod and plod instead of road and mode.
Basically, and I say basically because I'm sure there's more to it than I realize or describe here, the forearm rapidly rotates clockwise then
counterclockwise again
[iThat will result in up/down instead of down/up. Up/down works for finger tremolo but in my opinion is not the best way to learn plectrum tremolo.
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abc123xyz
Oud Junkie
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Yes, you're right. I didn't give any thought to which direction one should start with, I only thought to try to describe the back-and-forth movement.
David
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: Originally posted by abc123xyz |
Yes, you're right. I didn't give any thought to which direction one should start with, I only thought to try to describe the back-and-forth movement.
David
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Starting with up works well for finger tremolo because the stronger stroke is in/up and the weaker stroke is out/down. With a plectrum the up stroke
fights gravity but if preceded by a down stroke one gets the benefit of the sproing effect as the hand automatically springs up to begin a new down
stroke.
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