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Adel Salameh
Oud Junkie
Posts: 235
Registered: 4-18-2008
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Oud , Banjo Question
Dear Friends,
for a very long time I have wanted to post this on the forums...a question about the Arab Oud... many of you know that we have produced great makers
in many countries including Syria , Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine...
many of my friends and the people who know me , they know that I like the traditional Arab Oud, and I still believe that the Arab Oud is something
unique and special ..
If we look at the Turkish , Armenian and Greek oud we see that the instrument is preserved and quite protected , which means their Oud has not changed
and they carry on producing the same Model without any changes...
The Oud in the Arab world has changed, in fact it has been replaced by another instrument which has nothing to do with the Oud , neither in sound nor
in the look ...
we have an instrument that produces banjo: Mandolin sound, with floating bridge with F string ...
Its may be good to have another instrument , as long as we give it a name and say this instrument is part of the oud family and say that this player
plays this instrument ...
I believe that we should protect the Arab oud and encourage makers to carry on producing this instrument and their is no harm in having another extra
instrument if it does not delete the authentic Arab oud.
best wishes,
Adel
http://www.adelsalameh.com
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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Dear Adel,
I agree with you about floating bridge oud not being at all the same as the fixed bridge Arabic oud. My preference is very much for the fixed bridge
oud. That is the oud I dream about, the oud that captures my imagination, the oud with magic and charm, and this is for both sound and appearance.
As a player of mandolin and banjo since the age of 12 (many years ago) I don't agree that the floating bridge oud has a sound resembling any kind of
banjo or mandolin.
best wishes
Jody
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Adel Salameh
Oud Junkie
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Dear Jody,
I like your answer ( Banjo and mandolin sound better)
for me its NOT an Oud, I do say this to makers , players and to my students...
will you consider this instrument as part of the Mandolin family ? if you look at the soundboard and the way it bends behind the bridge, the floating
bridge.. the way the strings are fixed to the bowl???
I ask this as you are a mandolin player? and may be you know about the structure and the making of Mandolin.
Best wishes,
Adel
http://www.adelsalameh.com/oudcamp.php
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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Quote: Originally posted by Adel Salameh  | Dear Jody,
I like your answer ( Banjo and mandolin sound better)
for me its NOT an Oud, I do say this to makers , players and to my students...
will you consider this instrument as part of the Mandolin family ? if you look at the soundboard and the way it bends behind the bridge, the floating
bridge.. the way the strings are fixed to the bowl???
I ask this as you are a mandolin player? and may be you know about the structure and the making of Mandolin.
Best wishes,
Adel
http://www.adelsalameh.com/oudcamp.php
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I edited my post, removing the part about mandolin and banjo sounding better so that I would not offend sincere people who love their floating bridge
ouds. They are entitled to their opinions, but since you obviously saw my original post and have responded to it I suddenly realized I also may have
an opinion and yes it is true that I do find that mandolins and banjos that are well set up and well played sound better to me than floating bridge
ouds.
I am away from home at the moment and don't have access to a book I have about early mandolin but if I remember right, the earliest mandolins had a
flat soundboard and floating bridge and it was soon discovered that having 2 planes to the soundboard was a better idea. However since those days the
mandolin has taken many forms. Some of the best sounding mandolins do not have 2 planes but have a curve instead. Since the 1920s bowl back mandolins
are less common than mandolins with flat backs, and especially than mandolins whose backs do have a small curve or arch, but this is carved rather
than being made of ribs. The original almond shape, which gave rise to the name "mandol" and "mandola" and "mandolin", is no longer universal. Now
there are many shapes, each with a characteristic sound. All of these are considered to be real mandolins and not another instrument. The tuning of G
D A E, low to high, has been standard for a long time on all mandolins. Mandola is larger and tuned lower and is considered to be part of the mandolin
family but it is not a type of mandolin.
Some of the bowl back players feel that the other forms of mandolin are not really mandolins. The majority feel that all forms of mandolin are real
mandolins but that each is suited for certain kinds of music. It's the same with guitar and banjo. It's understood that using the best tool for the
job will produce the best result but there is very little objection to all varieties being called by the same name (mandolin or banjo or guitar).
I am only a player, not a historian, but my impression, unverified by experts, but also not disputed, is that while the European lute is descended
from the Arabic oud/aoud , the mandolin may be descended from the Arabic kwitra via a now obsolete European instrument called quintern. kwitra and
kwintern may also be cognate words. The kwitra, now common in North Africa, especially Algeria, appears to have evolved in Arabic Spain a long time
ago.
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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OK, I'll bite....I would enjoy listening to Munir Bashir more if he had played a standard Arabic oud. 
roypatterson.com
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Adel Salameh
Oud Junkie
Posts: 235
Registered: 4-18-2008
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Thank you Jody for the great information regarding the Mandolin...
I must say that I have no intention of upsetting anybody , nor making anybody feel bad regarding my comments...
having said that , things must be clear , I love Munir Bashir as a player, a master in what he was doing , the way he interpreted traditional
music...
the fact that he developed this instrument with the Iraqi Usta Mohammad Fadl Awad in the early 1950's and brought it to life.... this instrument
suited Munir Bashir style of playing and was accepted and spread all over the Arab world does not mean that this instrument is the Arab Oud... players
followed the master in trying to play like him and to produce the same sound ...
we all know what is the Arab oud, and this is instrument is not an oud, then it should be given a name, we have many string instruments like Buzuq,
Mandolin, Mandola, Quithra... etc and this instrument will be added to the list of string instruments which we all ready have...
I wish you all the best,
Adel
http://www.adelsalameh.com/oudcamp.php
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
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This is the strangest post I have ever seen on Mikeouds.
Seriously, do floating bridge ouds look like mandolins to you? Both kinds have the same tuning, string length, fingering, string material, picking and
number of strings. just because the bridge is changed or a pair of strings is added doesnt mean its a mandolin.
Take guitar family for example, there are classical guitars, Flamenco guitars, acoustic guitars, electric guitars, arctop guitars and a lot more. 6
strings, 7 strings, 12 strings. but they are all guitars.
I myself prefer my 11 strings fixed bridge oud to all other kinds (its the most famous kind here in Iran) but floating bridge oud as a mandolin?
NOWAY!
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Quote: Originally posted by spyblaster | This is the strangest post I have ever seen on Mikeouds.
Seriously, do floating bridge ouds look like mandolins to you? Both kinds have the same tuning, string length, fingering, string material, picking and
number of strings. just because the bridge is changed or a pair of strings is added doesnt mean its a mandolin.
Take guitar family for example, there are classical guitars, Flamenco guitars, acoustic guitars, electric guitars, arctop guitars and a lot more. 6
strings, 7 strings, 12 strings. but they are all guitars.
I myself prefer my 11 strings fixed bridge oud to all other kinds (its the most famous kind here in Iran) but floating bridge oud as a mandolin?
NOWAY! |
If I am not mistaken, Adel was simply referring to the sound of the floating bridge oud as being closer to the mandolin or banjo; you know, the
"twangyness" of it. Maybe the sound of the cumbus as a comparison would have been closer to home. I do agree that the FB oud is part of the oud
family; the guitar analogy is a good one. The floating bridge archtop guitar sounds very different than a flat top with steel strings or a nylon
string classical guitar. Then there is the 12 string guitar; they are all guitars. However, Adel's point that there should be a distinction made
between the standard fixed bridge Arabic oud and the Iraqi FB oud is valid in my opinion. Is it different enough to be named as a different
instrument? Probably a difficult argument to make.
However, here is something that might add to the discussion on some level. Back in the 1940s or 50s (not sure of the date) Brazil was looking for
national symbols. The government chose the violão, which is a nylon string guitar or classical guitar. The Brazilians refer to this instrument as a
violão, not as a guitar. They have a 10 string (double metal courses) and they call it a viola caipira. There is also a 7 string guitar called a
violão sete cordas and referred to as such. If you refer to an instrument as a guitar in Brazil (viola) they will assume that you are referring to a
steel string flattop, an archtop or electric guitar. They refer to the nylon string or classical guitar as a violão. I used to work with a Brazilian
singer and she always referred to my nylon string guitar as a violão and my electric as a guitar. So, there is a precedent there for Adel's point
that perhaps there should be more of a distinction made between the Arabic oud and its cousin, the floating bridge twangy thing originating in
Iraq.
roypatterson.com
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spyblaster
Oud Junkie
Posts: 285
Registered: 2-17-2010
Location: Iran - Karaj
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I'm no expert in these stuff but I think this is the structure which categorizes the instrument types, not the sound. Take Iranian, Turkish and
Egyptian ouds for example, do they sound similar to u? But they all have almost the same structures. Even changing the string material (Nylon, PVF,
Nylgut, etc) can completely change the sound.
The Oud is my life, n my life is the Oud
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 734
Registered: 9-17-2005
Location: Louisville, KY
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Mood: Loving my oud
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If you want to make a distinction between the two go for it, no one is stopping you. As others have pointed out an Iraqi oud is simply a different
type of the same instrument. Same thing as a gypsy guitar, classical guitar, steel string guitar, etc. They're all guitars but serve different
purposes, produce different sounds, and are used for different genres (with a fair bit of overlap just like with ouds).
It starts to get goofy when you begin to insinuate one or another type is the "real" instrument and the others are mere imitations of the real thing.
Nothing could be further from the truth. All in all I say spend more time practicing and less time worrying about such things.
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Quote: Originally posted by Jason | If you want to make a distinction between the two go for it, no one is stopping you. As others have pointed out an Iraqi oud is simply a different
type of the same instrument. Same thing as a gypsy guitar, classical guitar, steel string guitar, etc. They're all guitars but serve different
purposes, produce different sounds, and are used for different genres (with a fair bit of overlap just like with ouds).
It starts to get goofy when you begin to insinuate one or another type is the "real" instrument and the others are mere imitations of the real thing.
Nothing could be further from the truth. All in all I say spend more time practicing and less time worrying about such things.
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From this I understand that you feel that there should not be a distinction made between types of oud as far as what they are called. My point was
that in at least one culture, Brazilian, the different types of guitar are given different names which has established a precedent. Therefore I feel
that the question of naming the traditional Arabic oud and the floating bridge oud differently is a legitimate one, worthy of discussion. We don't
need to come to a conclusion. I will add that Adel's level of virtuosity and his artistic contributions to music give him the right to pose the
question. Lets please try to remain respectful. Perhaps the question could have been presented with a little less piss and vinegar,  nevertheless, it could be an interesting topic if we don't simply dismiss it as
unworthy.
roypatterson.com
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Adel Salameh
Oud Junkie
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Registered: 4-18-2008
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Roy I must say that you understand me very well...this instrument deserves to have a name , we have Quithra,buzuq , mandolin , mandola , oud ..etc
They are recognized instrument in the Arab world ...this one should be on the list as an independent instrument and not as an oud .... I remember
seeing a Neapolitan mandolin in the past , their was a bend on the soundboard behind the bridge , this is the reason I have asked if Mohammad Fadl was
influenced by the mandolin when he made this model ... Best wishes , Adel
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
Posts: 492
Registered: 12-28-2003
Location: Toronto, Ontario
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One other example to support the idea that the FB oud could be named differently is the modern Iranian oud called a barbat. It is easy to simply call
it "small oud" but it does have a different name.
roypatterson.com
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majnuunNavid
Oud Junkie
Posts: 622
Registered: 7-22-2013
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Mood: Dude, where's my Oud?
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Interesting post. I agree, with all comments to some degree.
I am a fan of both types, floating bridge and fixed bridge. They serve different purposes.
What really is an Oud, 5 strings? 6 six strings? Bass C string? no bass string, or an extra high string? The Oud like all instruments is evolving in
time, some try to preserve, others innovate. If some did not innovate, we would not have the amazing CLASSIC Syrian Oud we have now.
But yes, in some respects the floating bridge oud is a different instrument.
But even when you compare fixed bridge Ouds, not all are the same. They all have their unique character, and this is what is amazing about the Oud
that it's never the same.
What I've discovered for my own taste is that floating bridge high ff Oud should be more widely used for Persian music. The range and concept is more
akin to the other Persian instruments. It is different.
That being said, long live the Arab Oud, that is the Oud I fell in love with and that is the sound that moves me forward.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Excuse me gentlemen, but I have to weary you a bit with some history:
The first oud is believed to be invented in Iraq 4.5 millenniums ago, back in the Acadian era (2350-2170 BC). Some supposed that the oud was Persian
or Arabic or even Turkish, but the ancient Sumerian fretted oud of the third millennium BC has been seen in the early archaeological findings. This
was very long before the Persians or the Arabs were first reported to step the stage of history.
The oud moved from old Iraq to the neighboring countries. It reached Egypt and was used for the first time in the era of the New Kingdom (1580-1090
BC), while in Persia it has been proven that its first appearance followed the fall of Babylon in 1530 BC. Later on, the oud moved to Turkey
(1675-1650 BC) and to Syria (15th century BC), to Palestine, Arab Peninsula and Greece (fourth century BC).
During the first centuries of the oud history, the shape of the sound box varied from rounded small to rectangular with semi-curved corners, while its
neck ranged from long to short and had three pegs. Ancient engraved findings showed an instrument which looked more like a bouzouki than to the well
known oud. It preserved this small pear-like shape for millenniums to come, until it started to look like what we all now know as "the oud".
The name of the oud had also known some changes throughout the Arabian history. It was first called "oud" in the 6th century A.D when Al Nadr Ibn
Al Hareth first brought the oud to Mecca. Later, it was called barbat after the Persian naming, then after a fish called shabbout (by Mansour
Zalzal ** - 791), then mazhar and more.
In short, oud is actually the name of the oud family, just as the violin family, while each specific instrument has its own name, without prejudice of
the family name. The name given to an instrument is not the issue raised by Adel. It's the idea behind trying to make the floating bridge modern Iraqi
oud prevail and subside the well known Syrian/Egyptian oud we all know, the oud of Sunbati, Qasabji, Abdol Wahhab, Farid, Wadee'a Alsafi and
many others.
Bashir's oud, first devised in 1950's, was the result and not the cause behind this innovation. Bashir brothers wanted a high tuned oud so
they asked their luthier Mohammad Fadel to make a strong oud which's capable of maintaining the high tuning without endangering the
soundboard. This oud was spread worldwide since the early 1970's by Monir Bashir and become the most desired pattern of the oud family. It is
an Iraqi oud-family member indeed, but it sure is not the same Syrian/Egyptian cousin oud family member we all cherish.
This should not mean by any means it's not as good as The Oud, but it should have been called Owide for instance, in order to differentiate it from
the oud, just like quitra was minimized from qithara or guitar, and just like violin name was minimized from viola. Was the violin still called viola,
or vise versa, it would have caused confusion just like the case here.
The oud would say: They are all my sons
Last, to whom who has advised Adel to practice: Excuse me gentleman, but this should not have been written to a well accomplished oud player called
Adel Salameh.
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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abc123xyz
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Not to weigh in on whether the instrument with the floating bridge should have its own name or not, because I don't care, but originally the word
oud seems to have been used in Arabic generically to apply to any short-necked lute.
An excerpt from the New Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments:
1. The term ‘ŪD.
Literally, ‘ūd means ‘twig’, ‘flexible rod’ or ‘aromatic stick’, and by inference ‘piece of wood’. In Ibn
Khaldūn (14th century), ‘ūd denoted the plectrum of the lute called barbaṭ. The etymology of the word has
occasioned numerous commentaries, among them Farmer’s thesis that the Arabs adopted the term to differentiate the instrument, with its wooden
soundtable, from the similar Persian barbaṭ, whose belly is covered with skin. But this can no longer be defended. The choice of the
term ‘ūd depends on a discursive form of Arab thought which required some other word to define the barbaṭ before the
‘ūd (the same applies to all the instruments of the emergent Islamic world): in this system of ideas, one term refers back to another
or is glossed by yet another, leading to a multiplicity of terms. As the ṣanj is described as a wanj, the būq
as a qarn, the duff as a ṭār, the ‘ūd becomes a synonym of the barbaṭ. The
skin–wood difference was not taken into account. This play of reference is clearly stated by the 10th-century Andalusian writer, Ibn ‘Abd
al-Rabbīhi: ‘the ‘ūd is the barbaṭ’. Other writers, such as Ibn Sīnā and Ibn Khaldūn, included
the ‘ūd under the heading of ‘barbaṭ’ when speaking of its characteristics. In the 10th century commentaries on pre-Islamic
poetry by al-Anbārī (d 916) give the ‘ūd two semantic meanings: barbat and MIZHAR (Lyall: The
Mufaḍḍaliyāt, Oxford, 1921, p.812); mizhar was to become a poetic substitute for the ‘ūd. Earlier, it
could equally denote the lyre, suggesting a process of transference from lyre to lute, the lute gradually acquiring the attributes of previous string
instruments and becoming a sublimation of them. This transference is noticeable in the earliest Arabic versions of the Bible, where kinnor
(lyre) is translated as ‘ūd (lute).
– end quote –
David
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
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You make some very astute points Jamil.
[1] "The first oud is believed to be invented in Iraq 4.5 millenniums ago, back in the Acadian era (2350-2170 BC)."
It is very difficult to say for sure that the oud originated that far back. There were many instruments that evolved from these early plucked
instruments, not only the oud. Not to be contrary, just saying that it is a possibility, not a certainty. I believe that you illustrate this point
here:
"Ancient engraved findings showed an instrument which looked more like a bouzouki than to the well known oud."
[2] ""The name given to an instrument is not the issue raised by Adel. It's the idea behind trying to make the floating bridge modern Iraqi oud
prevail and subside the well known Syrian/Egyptian oud we all know, the oud of Sunbati, Qasabji, Abdol Wahhab, Farid, Wadee'a Alsafi and many
others."
I believe that you are right. Would you agree Adel?
[3] "This should not mean by any means it's not as good as The Oud, but it should have been called Owide for instance, in order to differentiate it
from the oud, just like quitra was minimized from qithara or guitar, and just like violin name was minimized from viola. Was the violin still called
viola, or vise versa, it would have caused confusion just like the case here."
Violin, cello, viola....all came from the viola (Italian) family. Actually the guitar was also once part of the viola family or vihuela family in
Spain where the modern guitar evolved: viola da mana (plucked with the fingers) viola de arco (played with a bow) viola de penola (a metal stringed
instrument played with a plectrum) viola da gamba ( fretted but played with a bow)
[4] "Last, to whom who has advised Adel to practice: Excuse me gentleman, but this should not have been written to a well accomplished oud player
called Adel Salameh."
I agree 100%.
roypatterson.com
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
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The meeting is called to order. On the point of naming the floating bridge oud differently than the traditional Arabic oud, it being the case that we
are all in agreement () I propose that from henceforth the floating bridge oud
shall be named the, "Bashir Oud." For those individuals holding an unfavorable opinion of this instrument, they may if they so choose refer to said
instrument as the, Basher Oud." All in favor say yea. Enforcement of the new naming policy can be in the form of a fine with an increasing scale based
on 1st, 2nd and 3rd offenses, paid to mikeouds.com. 4th and subsequent offenses will result in offender being strapped to a chair and forced to listen
to Munir Bashir recordings at loud volumes. All in favor say yea.
roypatterson.com
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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That made me laugh.
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jdowning
Oud Junkie
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Apparently the original 'Bashir' floating bridge oud had a conventional flat sound board that was later modified (because of tuning stability
problems?) to a bent configuration that provided additional downward force on the bridge as well as allowing use of higher string tensions. The
inspiration for this modification seems to have come from the wire strung 19th C Neapolitan style mandolin that has a similar sound board
configuration. The same arrangement was used in Southern Italy for the wire strung strummed guitar 'chitarra battente' - flat soundboard baroque
guitars sometimes being modified (vandalised) for the purpose.
As far as I know this bent sound board design was an invention of the Southern Italian luthiers? Is there any evidence that this type of sound board
is found on other kinds of traditional Middle Eastern (or even European) instruments?
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Jason
Oud Junkie
Posts: 734
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Location: Louisville, KY
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| Quote: Originally posted by journeyman |
From this I understand that you feel that there should not be a distinction made between types of oud as far as what they are called.
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But we already do make a distinction between types of ouds. "Floating bridge oud" and "Bashir oud" are pretty well accepted terms most
people understand exactly what they mean. I just thought it was a little silly if people were going to start posturing around that one type of oud is
"the real deal" and everything else is a silly imitation that should be dismissed.
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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The situation seems to be that there is a growing worldwide opinion that the floating bridge oud with its high tuning is the Real Oud and that the
fixed bridge oud is an anomaly. That is the context for the question about whether it might be better to have 2 different names.
| Quote: Originally posted by Jason | | Quote: Originally posted by journeyman |
From this I understand that you feel that there should not be a distinction made between types of oud as far as what they are called.
|
But we already do make a distinction between types of ouds. "Floating bridge oud" and "Bashir oud" are pretty well accepted terms most
people understand exactly what they mean. I just thought it was a little silly if people were going to start posturing around that one type of oud is
"the real deal" and everything else is a silly imitation that should be dismissed.
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majnuunNavid
Oud Junkie
Posts: 622
Registered: 7-22-2013
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Mood: Dude, where's my Oud?
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Can we get a tally of which well-known Oud teachers are teaching with the high ff string? I would really like to know which "schools of Oud" are
teaching it. I am to believe that Naseer Shamma is spreading this all over Egypt right now correct? Said Chraibi and Charbel Rouhana use it. Who else?
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journeyman
Oud Junkie
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Location: Toronto, Ontario
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| Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid | | Can we get a tally of which well-known Oud teachers are teaching with the high ff string? I would really like to know which "schools of Oud" are
teaching it. I am to believe that Naseer Shamma is spreading this all over Egypt right now correct? Said Chraibi and Charbel Rouhana use it. Who else?
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My teacher uses a series of books from a formal academy in Damascus that use the F-f tuning. I don't think the issue is so much the tuning; Anouar
Brahem for example uses F-f and still gets that beautiful dark sound. The issue is more about the tonal qualities of the instrument.
roypatterson.com
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Jody Stecher
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1373
Registered: 11-5-2011
Location: California
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| Quote: Originally posted by majnuunNavid | | Can we get a tally of which well-known Oud teachers are teaching with the high ff string? I would really like to know which "schools of Oud" are
teaching it. I am to believe that Naseer Shamma is spreading this all over Egypt right now correct? Said Chraibi and Charbel Rouhana use it. Who else?
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Khalid Mohammed Ali plays a floating bridge oud.
Not all high strung ouds are floating bridge models.
Naseer Shamma is teaching oud in Cairo. People from outside of Egypt are coming there to learn so in that sense those of his students who play a
floating bridge model and return home do spread it "all over" but it's hard for me to imagine any kind of oud being played all over Egypt. Few in the
countryside could afford an oud, even if they wanted one. Where would one get strings in the interior?
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