joseph
Oud Maniac
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Gear tuning pegs on a Oud?
Hello,
I have a older oud which is almost unplayable because of slipping pegs. Long time ago I took it to a violin luthier but it hasn't improved. I
now have a newer oud where I don't experience much tuning problems. The newer oud has friction pegs as well but it is constructed better.
I'm thinking whether I should fit guitar style metal pegs to the older oud, so at least I can play it every now and then. Has anyone done this?
How difficult is it to do, and is the extra weight a problem? If this is not a good option, then what are the alternatives?
Many thanks
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Jonathan
Oud Junkie
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Machine heads tend to be so heavy that they throw the balance of the oud off, making it more difficult to keep the oud steady. Then, too, there is
the ugliness factor.
Still, there are oud makers out there that do provide machine (gear) heads on their ouds. Why not send it to another luthier and have it
re-pegged/re-fitted? Where are you located?
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eliot
Oud Junkie
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A much better choice (than guitar gears) is putting better fitting and better quality pegs on your existing pegbox. You may need to reshape the holes
slightly. I've had this done/ done this myself on a couple of ouds with great success. No more slipping pegs.
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Jonathan
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Me, too, and it made all the difference in the world. It was well worth having done. And on the oud that I had it done on, the original pegs were
not ebony--they were some soft wood. Make sure you get ebony, or some sort of hard wood if you do change the pegs.
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eliot
Oud Junkie
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On a related note - particularly regarding ebony tuning pegs, which I have on all my ouds now - I had heard on a couple occasions that for oud pegs to
work optimally that the relation of hardness of the peg box woods to the tuning pegs woods had to be just-so. Thus, if the peg box was too soft, one
might be better off with a slightly softer wood for the tuning pegs. Can anyone confirm or deny this? If this is the case, what's the technical
reason for it?
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revaldo29
Oud Junkie
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hey eliot,
Although I don't know if what you say is true, it makes perfectly good sense. If the tuning pegs are too soft, then the pressure of the holes
of the pegbox might condense the wood causing it to slip. The same would seem to work in the other direction. If the pegs are very dense wood and the
pegbox is soft, then my guess is that the holes will end up expanding some and reduce the contact with the peg causing them to slip. I don't see
however, why having soft pegs and and peg box is any better.
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joseph
Oud Maniac
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Thanks for everyone for their replies.
Hi Jonathan. I'm in Perth, Western Australia. The nearest oud luthier is in Adelaide, south Australia few thousand Kilometers away (Perth is the
most isolated city in the world. A perfect place to learn the oud).
Hi Eliot. You said you reshaped the holes yourselves to fit the new pegs. What equipment did you use to do that?
It seems that fitting new friction pegs (Ebony or rosewood) would be the way to go.
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Zulkarnain
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Hi Joseph
Is there any Oud teacher in Perth?
Salam
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eliot
Oud Junkie
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There is a conical shaped rasp that is used by violin makers to shape holes. The taper is just perfect for tuning pegs, be they for ouds or for
violins or the like. I don't know the model # or dimensions of it, sorry - I borrowed it from a friend of mine who has been an instrument
maker.
However, you then have to have pegs with the same taper.
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joseph
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Thanks Eliot.
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spyrosc
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Pegs
Dear friend,
Please search these forums for "pegs". This is a common problem/subject and it has been addressed many times.
Also check the following Web site for "hands-on" info:
http://www.bearmeadow.com/build/methods/setup/html/installing-peg.h...
I know this sounds simple but did you try chaulk or "peg dope" on your pegs ?
Good luck
Spyros C.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by eliot
... for oud pegs to work optimally that the relation of hardness of the peg box woods to the tuning pegs woods had to be just-so. Thus, if the peg box
was too soft, one might be better off with a slightly softer wood for the tuning pegs. Can anyone confirm or deny this? If this is the case,
what's the technical reason for it? |
If the peg is softer then the peg box the peg willl be compressed when you push it into the hole. This will cause a ledge to form on the peg shank,
preventing you from pushing the peg into the hole to hold the position. When the peg is harder then the pogbox the peg will slightly expand the hole
as it is pushed in, clamping the peg securely in position and holding it against the string tension. Many Mid-East pegs are made from maple or olive
or some similar light wood and painted black. These can be okay as long as the pegbox is softer and the grain is perpendicular to the peg hole. If the
grain is parallel to the hole, the pegbox wall can split or develop cracks between the holes. If split, the hole will expand too much and the peg
will slip. These cracks cannot be sucessfully repaired and the pegbox must be rebuilt.
Viola pegs are good replacements, as they have shanks larger than most original pegs, cost $3-$4 USD and reamers are $25-$80. The pegs will need to be
shaped to fit as they are often out of round from the factory. That's why violin shops charge $25-$40 each to fit pegs.
Mahogany, walnut or medium density woods are fine for pegboxes with rosewood or ebony pegs. You can test the relative hardness by rubbing the peg and
the pegbox together and see which one is dented.
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eliot
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Thanks Dr Oud - I was hoping for such an explanation, and you provided it!
-eliot
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joseph
Oud Maniac
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Thanks everyone,
Hi Zulkarnain
yes there are two oud teachers in Perth Australia that I know of. There are no oud repairers unfortunately.
Hi Syprosc
Thanks for the links. Yes I tried peg dope. The problem does not go away.
Thanks Dr Oud for the post. I realize now that I might have a more serious problem, because I remembered when I first got this oud years ago (It was
bought to me by family members from Lebanon), I took it to a guitar repairer to repair various cracks that appeared on it soon afterwards, one of
these cracks was to the face, and the other was to the peg box. You cannot tell now that the peg box had once a crack in it, but the underlying
problem is probably still there. I am wondering now whether any repairs on this Oud would be worth it. It is not a bad oud for sound, but I have
another good oud now which does not have problems. I had few bad ouds that were given to me by family members before, and that made learning
frustrating. The good oud is the only one that I bought myself and on my own, and I just enjoy playing it. Tuning it is fairly easy.
There is a lesson in all this especially to new players. Please buy a good instrument from a good Luthier, and don't just try to save money,
because a good instrument makes learning much easier and more enjoyable. The oud should not be an impossible instrument. Even what we think of as
expensive ouds are really reasonable in price compared to other instruments and for the value we get out of them. Sometimes, I feel like there should
be a law against ouds of bad quality because they are so widely available. Recently, I was listening to a professional player who plays Lute,
citerns and other old instruments demonstrate them, and when he got the oud to play, he said that he wouldn't even bother trying t o tuning it
because it is an impossible instrument to tune. Iasked later where he got if from, and he said a shop in London, and it seemed like a tourist style
oud. I told him that it doesn't have to be like this.
Anyone, I have digressed, but I wonder now whether I should just leave this old oud alone?
Thanks
Joseph
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Elie Riachi
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This oud might be of sentimental value to you, if so I think this fix will work:
Get some plugs or bushings made of hardwood such as walnut or some hardwood that matchs the color of the peg box. Make the plugs about 6 mm larger in
diameter than the diameter of the pegs you intend to use. Fit snugly a piece of scrap wood inside so the walls won’t collapse, and carefully and
securely clamp the peg box so it won’t move. Enlarge the existing holes so that the plugs will fit, make sure to use very sharp bits. Remove scrap
piece of wood. Apply glue all around each of the plugs and insert in the holes (may have to apply glue all around the inside of holes also, read
instructions on glue bottle.) Wait until glue dries, usually 24 hours. Now you can refit the new pegs according to the many instructions posted to
the forums. If you would like to match the plug color to peg box color, there are some wood dyes you can use on the plugs before gluing.
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Gabriel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by joseph
Hello,
I have a older oud which is almost unplayable because of slipping pegs. Long time ago I took it to a violin luthier but it hasn't improved. I now
have a newer oud where I don't experience much tuning problems. The newer oud has friction pegs as well but it is constructed better.
I'm thinking whether I should fit guitar style metal pegs to the older oud, so at least I can play it every now and then. Has anyone done this? How
difficult is it to do, and is the extra weight a problem? If this is not a good option, then what are the alternatives?
Many thanks |
Haluk makes ouds with guitar pegs,why dont you ask him
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Haluk
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Oud lovers will say this is unauthentic but as my thought oud needs reform because of slipping wooden pegs.
11 pcs. of plastic head guitar pegs makes 150 grams heaviness on the oud.
We are putting guitar pegs on ouds,when requested.
Regards all.
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guitarplayer006
Oud Lover
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I have the same problem as well, mine is not too bad though. I wonder if anyone has ever tried coating the tuning pegs with something to increase
friction. has anyone ever tried this?
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joseph
Oud Maniac
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Registered: 6-22-2004
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Hello,
Just an update on this topic.
I have now fitted new viola pegs to my Oud. A luthier did that for me. It was quite expensive but the results are impressive, much more than previous
peg repairs to the soft pegs. I recommend that people who have bought cheaper ouds with slipping pegs to do this kind of fundamental repair as it
making playing the instrument and learning it much more easier and enjoyable.
Even better, it would be better if everyone stops buying very cheap Ouds with badly fitted pegs. I think part of the problem that a lot of people who
want to learn the instrument do not want to pay lot of money at first (Quite understandable if you just want to try the instrument out, but
unrealistic once you're serioius about it).
I was interested to read Haluk's reply. As it happens, my other Turkish Oud which I love and never gives me trouble is by Haluk, so I know he can make
instruments of very high quality, but I agree with him that the Oud needs modernisation in terms of peg making.
I can see what is said about the weight problem of metal pegs, but then again, the mandolin and the guitar including the twelve string guitar have
metal pegs. It must be a little harder in the case of Oud because it has 12 pegs, and a bowl shape, but it must be possible with light weight
material. What I would like to see is that even cheaper Ouds do not have peg slipping problems, and the more expensive ones only improve in terms of
sound.
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