librahi
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Oud Value?
I'm obviously new to the forum. I am moving and have an oud that was my father's that has been in my basement. It had a cracked neck and would need
to be repaired to be played. However, I know it's quite old and may still have some value. Can anyone help me out? I have attached a few pictures
as well. Thanks so much for any input you can give! I have a few buyers interested but have no idea what to sell for. I have no idea where to find a
serial number as well. I looked everywhere...
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Lysander
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What you want to do it take a photo of the inside label. This is behind the front rosette. If you look in good light you should be able to see it.
Taking a photo of it is hard but possible.
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librahi
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Quote: Originally posted by Lysander  | What you want to do it take a photo of the inside label. This is behind the front rosette. If you look in good light you should be able to see it.
Taking a photo of it is hard but possible.
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I did! Thanks. Here it is.
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Lysander
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Les fils de Gamil Georges - Egyptian, probably from the 70s/80s. I'm sure someone else can confirm.
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librahi
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Thanks. How on earth do I get a value on it? Is it worth $10? $100? $1000?
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Brian Prunka
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Georges was a good maker. The oud is potentially worth some decent money, but it has to be evaluated by an expert. It's often the case with old ouds
that they need many expensive repairs in order to be usable.
This appears to have been repaired at one point. An evaluation of the previous repairs would help determine the value also. It looks like it was
repaired by "Berberian" in NY, though the pic is a little hard to read. The pickguard appears to be replaced, and possibly the bridge. If the
soundboard or braces are not original, it may be worth less. If it sounds great, it might be worth more.
If I was to guess, the whole face seems to have been replaced, which would normally lower the value substantially unless it was really great.
Where are you located? Perhaps a forum member can help you.
A broken neck can be a substantial repair job costing hundreds of dollars . . . some better photos of the oud and the damage would also help.
Best,
Brian
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librahi
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | Georges was a good maker. The oud is potentially worth some decent money, but it has to be evaluated by an expert. It's often the case with old ouds
that they need many expensive repairs in order to be usable.
This appears to have been repaired at one point. An evaluation of the previous repairs would help determine the value also. It looks like it was
repaired by "Berberian" in NY, though the pic is a little hard to read. The pickguard appears to be replaced, and possibly the bridge. If the
soundboard or braces are not original, it may be worth less. If it sounds great, it might be worth more.
If I was to guess, the whole face seems to have been replaced, which would normally lower the value substantially unless it was really great.
Where are you located? Perhaps a forum member can help you.
A broken neck can be a substantial repair job costing hundreds of dollars . . . some better photos of the oud and the damage would also help.
Best,
Brian
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Thanks! I'm in Denver. And I will attached some pictures. Hard to attach high quality pics with the 500kb limit.
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librahi
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And I am looking to sell. If I will have to pay $500 to repair it and only get $700 for it, it's not worth it. If I can get $1000 or more, then it
is! 
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Brian Prunka
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No one ever listens, but I am going to tell you the same thing that I've told other people in your situation.
If you don't want to keep it and play it, it's probably not the best choice for you to have it repaired.
Just sell it as-is to someone who wants to restore it. Anyone who is serious about a vintage instrument will want to have it restored by someone they
trust, and the cost to you to repair it will most likely not be recouped vs. the as-is value.
This advice might be different if you lived near one of the few people who really know old Arabic ouds, or if you lived somewhere with lots of oud
players who could try it out. But ouds tend to be challenging to sell over a distance, and without a clear pedigree from the maker and repairs it
becomes very difficult to get enough for the oud to make it worthwhile for you to repair it.
This oud, restored to good working order, would probably be worth $1000 to $2000, entirely depending on how it sounds and feels. If you are selling
over the internet, that means it will be the low end of that estimate; since the buyer cannot evaluate it in person, they will have to assume the
worst. But most people don't even want to part with $1000 for an oud that might be a stinker, so expect to take a long time to sell it. Since it
appears to have already been substantially modified, it doesn't even have much 'collector' value, whatever that might have been.
To clarify, an undesirable restoration will actually lower the value vs. leaving it alone, since the buyer must now undo the previous 'repairs' (if
even possible).
I'd expect this oud to sell for about $550 in this condition. Maybe someone would pay a bit more, maybe not, but it has some vintage value and
appears to overall be in decent condition, aside from the broken pegbox. With the better picture, I'd say about 90% sure that the soundboard was
replaced, along with the bridge and pickguard. That means it's really not a "Gamil Georges" anymore, but at least 50% whoever replaced the soundboard
(which creates most of the sound). Since the repairman isn't a well-known luthier, it's hard for anyone to predict what it will sound like. It also
looks like the pegs and nut should probably be replaced.
Once you get to work on fixing the neck, pegs, and nut, you may find even more issues to repair. It's not uncommon to find loose braces inside, or to
find that the neck needs to be reset entirely due to high action.
Considering the difficulty of finding someone qualified to do the repairs, your own inexperience with the instrument, and the difficulty of finding a
buyer, I really doubt it will be worth it to try to get more money by having it repaired.
In cases where I've seen someone try to sell an oud they've had repaired, they always have a good deal of difficulty selling it.
There's someone who's been trying for over a year to sell an old Najarian oud they spent $1100+ restoring.
That's just my opinion, having seen this exact scenario play out numerous times. It might work out differently for you—there are so many variables
it's impossible to know. Of course, this is guesswork since I can't evaluate it in person, but since Denver is somewhat isolated, that same guesswork
is going to be involved for your interested buyers as well.
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librahi
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| Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka | No one ever listens, but I am going to tell you the same thing that I've told other people in your situation.
If you don't want to keep it and play it, it's probably not the best choice for you to have it repaired.
Just sell it as-is to someone who wants to restore it. Anyone who is serious about a vintage instrument will want to have it restored by someone they
trust, and the cost to you to repair it will most likely not be recouped vs. the as-is value.
This advice might be different if you lived near one of the few people who really know old Arabic ouds, or if you lived somewhere with lots of oud
players who could try it out. But ouds tend to be challenging to sell over a distance, and without a clear pedigree from the maker and repairs it
becomes very difficult to get enough for the oud to make it worthwhile for you to repair it.
This oud, restored to good working order, would probably be worth $1000 to $2000, entirely depending on how it sounds and feels. If you are selling
over the internet, that means it will be the low end of that estimate; since the buyer cannot evaluate it in person, they will have to assume the
worst. But most people don't even want to part with $1000 for an oud that might be a stinker, so expect to take a long time to sell it. Since it
appears to have already been substantially modified, it doesn't even have much 'collector' value, whatever that might have been.
To clarify, an undesirable restoration will actually lower the value vs. leaving it alone, since the buyer must now undo the previous 'repairs' (if
even possible).
I'd expect this oud to sell for about $550 in this condition. Maybe someone would pay a bit more, maybe not, but it has some vintage value and
appears to overall be in decent condition, aside from the broken pegbox. With the better picture, I'd say about 90% sure that the soundboard was
replaced, along with the bridge and pickguard. That means it's really not a "Gamil Georges" anymore, but at least 50% whoever replaced the soundboard
(which creates most of the sound). Since the repairman isn't a well-known luthier, it's hard for anyone to predict what it will sound like. It also
looks like the pegs and nut should probably be replaced.
Once you get to work on fixing the neck, pegs, and nut, you may find even more issues to repair. It's not uncommon to find loose braces inside, or to
find that the neck needs to be reset entirely due to high action.
Considering the difficulty of finding someone qualified to do the repairs, your own inexperience with the instrument, and the difficulty of finding a
buyer, I really doubt it will be worth it to try to get more money by having it repaired.
In cases where I've seen someone try to sell an oud they've had repaired, they always have a good deal of difficulty selling it.
There's someone who's been trying for over a year to sell an old Najarian oud they spent $1100+ restoring.
That's just my opinion, having seen this exact scenario play out numerous times. It might work out differently for you—there are so many variables
it's impossible to know. Of course, this is guesswork since I can't evaluate it in person, but since Denver is somewhat isolated, that same guesswork
is going to be involved for your interested buyers as well.
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This is WONDERFUL information. Thank you so much. I certainly appreciate it all and I am going to listen and try to sell as is! Maybe I'll list it
in here. Would love to find a good home for it! Thank you again.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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This repair is simple and cheap. The crack is very common as it is the weakest joint on the whole oud and fails easily if the oud is dropped on the
peg box. You only need to spread the crack slightly and apply some wood glue into the open joint, spreading it around the crack with a small brush or
a strip of paper. Then close the joint with a small clamp or even by holding it closed for minute or two until it sticks, and leave it fr a day or
two to cure. I would charge $25 to do it, but the shipping cost would cost about twice that much. The value of the oud would increase substantially
for this simple repair, I'd advise you to do it, even if you don't keep it. If you are not comfortable doing it, take it to any music instrument
repair shop, they should repair it for no more than $50, it really take 2 minutes of work.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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Richard, I find it hard to believe that you can so confidently say this is a $25-50 fix with only these photos as a guide. If the interior block also
detached, it is a much more involved repair, as I'm sure you know.
Even so, I don't really know of any luthiers that will do even the simplest repair for much less than $100—perhaps it depends where you live.
I also think that "any repair shop" is not good advice—In my experience, a substantial portion of repair shops really would have no idea how to
correctly fix an oud. Some of them would tell you this up front, but others would go ahead and try, and then you end up with a bad repair that needs
to be reversed aside from the underlying issue.
I guess it could be worth a try. My initial comments were based on his original description of "a cracked neck" with no photos. If the damage is not
severe it's possible that it could be repaired more easily.
My general opinion is based on my experience that an old oud, stored in a basement for years, with some obvious damage, is almost certain to have a
number of significant issues, and the best approach is to leave the restoration in the hands of the person who will play the oud. I'd be very
surprised if a small crack was the only problem with this oud.
A closer inspection of the label reveals that it's the sons of Gamil Georges, not Georges himself.
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1370
Registered: 12-18-2002
Location: Sacramento, CA, USA
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I based my estimate on the picture of the peg box/neck delamination. This failure requires some glue and a clamp to bring the parts together.
Altogether it is a 5 minute job. Of course if there is other damage it needs to be examined, but I see no damage to the back or tail or face, so it is
possible that the broken peg box is all that's needed to get the oud back on track. Any wood glue and a simple clamp or even a held by hand with some
quick setting glue like cyanoacrilate formulated for wood (crazy glue) would work fine. My minimum charge is $25, I think $100 is a rip off for 5
minutes work.
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Alfaraby
Oud Junkie
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Gamil George (first G is pronounced like "go, get, graet" etc.; while George is pronounced like any other George) worked in Cairo until 1965 when he
passed away. His sons took over, but couldn't maintain the great reputation of their late father. They seem to have thought that they can continue
running the workshop hiring the same master's apprentices, but soon discovered how wrong they were. The business crashed down very rapidly, so they
sold it, alongwith with their father's trade mark name. Since then, the workshop continued to make ouds under the name of Jamil George, but the name
was the only common thing with the late master's ouds.
I have visited this poor workshop several times in the past, and each time I ran away very quickly, mourning the loss of the legend. The old guys
there continued making the same 100 pounds ouds they made 30-40 years earlier. What a pitty !
I came across some of the sons' ouds when they were still running the workshop. They had farely good bowls, but the soundboards were total wrecks with
zero sound. Contrary to the popular belief that replacing the soundboard may degrade an oud, replacing this particular soundboard may have upgraded it
!
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
alfarabymusic@gmail.com
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2938
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by Alfaraby | Gamil George (first G is pronounced like "go, get, graet" etc.; while George is pronounced like any other George) worked in Cairo until 1965 when he
passed away. His sons took over, but couldn't maintain the great reputation of their late father. They seem to have thought that they can continue
running the workshop hiring the same master's apprentices, but soon discovered how wrong they were. The business crashed down very rapidly, so they
sold it, alongwith with their father's trade mark name. Since then, the workshop continued to make ouds under the name of Jamil George, but the name
was the only common thing with the late master's ouds.
I have visited this poor workshop several times in the past, and each time I ran away very quickly, mourning the loss of the legend. The old guys
there continued making the same 100 pounds ouds they made 30-40 years earlier. What a pitty !
I came across some of the sons' ouds when they were still running the workshop. They had farely good bowls, but the soundboards were total wrecks with
zero sound. Contrary to the popular belief that replacing the soundboard may degrade an oud, replacing this particular soundboard may have upgraded it
!
Yours indeed
Alfaraby
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I wouldn't be surprised. Though if this oud is as old as it seems, it may have been relatively shortly after the sons took over. I don't know if
that's better.
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hartun
Oud Junkie
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FYI oud repairman Berberian in NY is almost certainly Edward (Yervant) Berberian, father of the renowned oudist John Berberian.
Edward Berberian was born in Kayseri, Turkey and was an amateur player who repaired ouds in the back of his dry cleaning store in NYC.
I dont think he really made ouds, mainly repaired them.
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