dutorchi
Oud Lover
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Improving a Zeryab oud?
Hi all,
I have a Zeryab shami oud (https://www.ethnicmusical.com/shop/shami-oud-by-zeryab-ali-khalife/) which had an unfortunate accident, cracking part of the bowl in the bottom.
Before I take it to repair, I am wondering if there's anything else I could ask the luthier to look into at one go to improve the sound.
I was told that perhaps there's something that can be done to the soundboard and braces are too thick and can do with some sanding. The luthier I will
be working with will not have experience with ouds (none exist within travelling distance from where I live) - and so, I wonder what specifics I could
tell the luthier? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated 
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
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These are usually not bad ouds overall and there is nothing I'd recommend to do regarding the sound, especially by a luthier who is not an oud
specialist. Is it possible a knowledgeable luthier could remove some material from the braces to improve the sound? Sure, but it is a risky
proposition, and the oud is quite different from other stringed instruments in enough ways that there are very few people who might be entrusted with
such a task - you stand a reasonable chance of making the instrument worse. Zeryab operates a factory based on a tested model; while not the
greatest, they are reasonably consistent in having a decent sound. It's almost always advisable that if you're not happy with the sound of an oud,
you should get a different oud. Trying to modify the sound — in that path madness lies, my friend 
The things that can be done to improve these ouds are usually within the realm of playability:
- making a better nut out of bone. Make sure that the grooves are not cut too deeply - guitar luthiers can have a habit of making very deep grooves.
Oud grooves should be just enough to hold the string, I think about half the string depth is right on the wound strings. Honestly for this part you
might be better off having an oud pro like Yaron Naor do this for you - I had a student do this on his Zeryab oud and it's one of the best nuts I've
ever seen. While it's generally better to have someone working on your actual oud, having someone who is a pro with ouds specifically might outweigh
that. Depends on your luthier.
- improving the string spacing both at the nut and the bridge (usually requires filling in some holes and redrilling). Most cheaper (and some
expensive) ouds have inconsistent string spacing between courses and often poor spacing within a course (usually too far apart within a course). This
makes picking more difficult than necessary and makes it harder to get the strings to ring together properly (and also increases the likelihood of
intonation problems between pairs).
Zeryab is usually not bad but some work on refitting the pegs can be warranted if there are notable tuning problems.
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coolsciguy
Oud Junkie
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Hi Dutorchi,
Apart from Brian’s brilliant suggestions, I recommend trying different strings on your oud to improve sound. The string equation with ouds of
various sizes and styles is rather a complicated one for a beginner and one needs to spend time trying various strings to get the sound they want.
For instance, persian/turkish style oud playing requires strings that are too resonant for say Arabic music. I exclusively use Aurora strings imported
from turkey on my zeryab and other ouds for this very reason.
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dutorchi
Oud Lover
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Hi Brian, hi Amir, thank you both for the suggestions!
I've had this Zeryab for half a year before my teacher (Nizar) asked me to look for something better : (Am on a Metin Kesici from 2003 now - probably not fair to compare the two?). That's why I think if I'm going to have
to spend money to repair it anyway, might as well give it an upgrade rather than simply restoring it to its former state. Here's a short clip of it:
https://youtu.be/r0FCPmKkoDE. I wonder what you make of its sound?
As for the nut and bridge, I'm under the impression that the groove and the string spacing at both nut and bridge are fine:
[img]https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1XxdID1NUDGGUXJNU8zFVA2mmWovFr5zc[/img]
[img]https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1f_YRbeLnWYIS6EfJk28t0DI3AfSkiohS[/img]
Amir, I wonder what suggestions you may have for strings for Persian music? I'm learning to play that too, and I do find it very dry. I've used
Aurora, Kurschner and now Aquila, and though I have not compared systematically, the impression is that they still don't sound resonant enough like in
the pro recordings ) So, would love to look into that too!
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Brian Prunka
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Nice playing! Are you studying with Nizar Rohana? Great musician.
The oud sounds good to me, classic Arabic sound. I don't think this is something that can be "improved" through any intervention. It's not going to
sould anything like a Turkish oud no matter what, and it shouldn't. Metin Kesici makes very nice ouds but for classic Arabic repertoire I'd probably
prefer the sound you have here (from what I can tell from a video, which isn't really that much).
The nut and bridge spacing look good - you got lucky there!
A bone nut might improve the resonance of the open strings and make it easier to tune but otherwise no reason to change it.
The pegs appear to be a bit questionable - they have around a 1:15 or 1:20 taper rather than the standard 1:30 taper of professional pegs. If they
work okay I wouldn't worry about it, but better pegs might be smoother and more stable.
It looks like you have some wear on the fingerboard. I don't hear any buzzing yet, but it's probably in your future, at which point you will probably
need to replace the fingerboard with something harder - either ebony, MOP or bone.
Regarding strings, if you really want to improve the sound, you probably don't want to use any set of strings for an Arabic oud. While Turkish ouds
are very standardized and consequently can be strung somewhat predictably with off-the-shelf sets, there is far too much variability in Arabic oud
designs and tuning for string manufacturers to do more than make a guess as to what is 'average.'
Measure the vibrating string length (scale) of the oud. Zeryab are usually between 58.5 and 60 cm. If you are in the US I'd recommend getting
LaBella for the wound strings and Aquila lute for the treble strings. For 58.5 try this:
c' - .60mm
g - .76mm
d - .024 in (wound)
A - .028 in
F - .034 in (G -.033 in)
C - .044 in (D - .042 in)
for 60cm try this:
c' - .58mm
g - .73mm
d -.023 in (wound)
A - .027in
F - .033in (G - .032in)
C - .043in (D - .041in)
The Aquila strings are great for a classic Arabic sound, but if you want to do more Turkish-type ornaments, you might be better off with carbon
strings on the treble courses as they speak a little differently.
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coolsciguy
Oud Junkie
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Hi Dutorchi,
Very nice playing! How long have you been playing the oud? I see that you are learning other oriental instruments aside from the oud, very
interesting!
I am afraid you have reached the potential for this Zeryab model; given you have tried Aurora and Kurschner, I think you are pretty much there in
terms if trying resonant strings. I use Aurora on my ouds and find them to be a good fit for Persian music (there are a few models like gold and red
and silver, i have used silver only)
As Brian suggested, carbon strings for gg and cc are good options, Aurora has carbon on cc and gg, perhaps you can try different brands like Pyramid
Lute.
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dutorchi
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 6-19-2022
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Quote: Originally posted by Brian Prunka  | Nice playing! Are you studying with Nizar Rohana? Great musician.
The oud sounds good to me, classic Arabic sound. I don't think this is something that can be "improved" through any intervention. It's not going to
sould anything like a Turkish oud no matter what, and it shouldn't. Metin Kesici makes very nice ouds but for classic Arabic repertoire I'd probably
prefer the sound you have here (from what I can tell from a video, which isn't really that much).
The nut and bridge spacing look good - you got lucky there!
A bone nut might improve the resonance of the open strings and make it easier to tune but otherwise no reason to change it.
The pegs appear to be a bit questionable - they have around a 1:15 or 1:20 taper rather than the standard 1:30 taper of professional pegs. If they
work okay I wouldn't worry about it, but better pegs might be smoother and more stable.
It looks like you have some wear on the fingerboard. I don't hear any buzzing yet, but it's probably in your future, at which point you will probably
need to replace the fingerboard with something harder - either ebony, MOP or bone.
Regarding strings, if you really want to improve the sound, you probably don't want to use any set of strings for an Arabic oud. While Turkish ouds
are very standardized and consequently can be strung somewhat predictably with off-the-shelf sets, there is far too much variability in Arabic oud
designs and tuning for string manufacturers to do more than make a guess as to what is 'average.'
Measure the vibrating string length (scale) of the oud. Zeryab are usually between 58.5 and 60 cm. If you are in the US I'd recommend getting
LaBella for the wound strings and Aquila lute for the treble strings. For 58.5 try this:
c' - .60mm
g - .76mm
d - .024 in (wound)
A - .028 in
F - .034 in (G -.033 in)
C - .044 in (D - .042 in)
for 60cm try this:
c' - .58mm
g - .73mm
d -.023 in (wound)
A - .027in
F - .033in (G - .032in)
C - .043in (D - .041in)
The Aquila strings are great for a classic Arabic sound, but if you want to do more Turkish-type ornaments, you might be better off with carbon
strings on the treble courses as they speak a little differently.
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Thank you Brian again for the generous sharing and remarks! Yes I'm studying with Nizar Rohana, fantastic musician and teacher indeed. Hence I took it
quite seriously when he said I needed to change ouds.
My qualms with it is that it does seem to buzz a fair bit, more obvious on the wound strings from about a minor third above open string upwards. The
notes buzz and don't really "speak" as well as I think they should. I wonder if that's got to with the fretboard. Moreover, I feel that the ornaments
on the side get in the way when I play the top cc strings, as they are not completely smoothened out. We were wondering if that's the reason I find it
hard to get a unison sound even though the strings were tuned unison (to my best effort). I wonder if fretboard replacement is the way forward.
The pegs do slip a lot. I would sit in my room and hear the pegs slipping. I could simply replace them by getting a set of ebony pegs from Sultan
Instruments or any such online stores? I'm way out in Hong Kong where there's nothing oud-related. So for such supplies (as well as the LaBella and
other strings) I would have to resort to online stores.
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dutorchi
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
Registered: 6-19-2022
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| Quote: Originally posted by coolsciguy | Hi Dutorchi,
Very nice playing! How long have you been playing the oud? I see that you are learning other oriental instruments aside from the oud, very
interesting!
I am afraid you have reached the potential for this Zeryab model; given you have tried Aurora and Kurschner, I think you are pretty much there in
terms if trying resonant strings. I use Aurora on my ouds and find them to be a good fit for Persian music (there are a few models like gold and red
and silver, i have used silver only)
As Brian suggested, carbon strings for gg and cc are good options, Aurora has carbon on cc and gg, perhaps you can try different brands like Pyramid
Lute. |
Thank you I've been taking lessons since March this year. I have been playing
dutars (Uzbek, Turkmen) for much longer.
Thanks for the suggestions for strings too! Perhaps I could try a set of Aurora on the Metin Kesici and see if I get better resonance than on the
Zeryab.
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Brian Prunka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 2939
Registered: 1-30-2004
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: Stringish
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| Quote: Originally posted by dutorchi |
Thank you Brian again for the generous sharing and remarks! Yes I'm studying with Nizar Rohana, fantastic musician and teacher indeed. Hence I took it
quite seriously when he said I needed to change ouds.
My qualms with it is that it does seem to buzz a fair bit, more obvious on the wound strings from about a minor third above open string upwards. The
notes buzz and don't really "speak" as well as I think they should. I wonder if that's got to with the fretboard. Moreover, I feel that the ornaments
on the side get in the way when I play the top cc strings, as they are not completely smoothened out. We were wondering if that's the reason I find it
hard to get a unison sound even though the strings were tuned unison (to my best effort). I wonder if fretboard replacement is the way forward.
The pegs do slip a lot. I would sit in my room and hear the pegs slipping. I could simply replace them by getting a set of ebony pegs from Sultan
Instruments or any such online stores? I'm way out in Hong Kong where there's nothing oud-related. So for such supplies (as well as the LaBella and
other strings) I would have to resort to online stores. |
Well, it didn't sound too buzzy in the video but if it bothers you in person there probably is some issue. An issue with these ouds is that they use
pretty soft wood for the fingerboard and it wears out very quickly. The first area to have problems is usually around F-F# on the D string, so it
sounds like this is what's going on.
It's also possible that the tile edging is not uniform and that it's causing issues as well.
For pegs, you can't just buy pegs online and stick them in.
Any pegs need to be fit to the oud with a reamer and peg shaver - there is no 'typical size' and your holes are tapered differently so they will need
to be re-reamed with a standard 1:30 reamer. Then the pegs need to be shaved (looks kind of like a large pencil sharpener). Then holes drilled for
the strings. None of this is particularly difficult work but you need to be at least a little comfortable with woodworking and have the proper tools.
If you go slow and are careful it's possible to do yourself.
But certainly there are better ouds out there, upgrading makes more sense at a certain point.
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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Hello
This oud sounds nice though I prefer to play on ouds with a sound a bit more opened. But this is a matter of taste and habits.
" Improving " an oud to your taste can be very hasardous on the first try.
So I will join Brian advice unless you are ready to make it as an experiment, and regarding the experience of the one making it.
Though I have a single question, I'm not sure checking your YouTube video , is there a finishing on the soundboard ? I thought on those models
soundboards are left natural but I'm not sure from the video.
Best wishes
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dutorchi
Oud Lover
Posts: 10
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| Quote: Originally posted by suz_i_dil | Hello
This oud sounds nice though I prefer to play on ouds with a sound a bit more opened. But this is a matter of taste and habits.
" Improving " an oud to your taste can be very hasardous on the first try.
So I will join Brian advice unless you are ready to make it as an experiment, and regarding the experience of the one making it.
Though I have a single question, I'm not sure checking your YouTube video , is there a finishing on the soundboard ? I thought on those models
soundboards are left natural but I'm not sure from the video.
Best wishes
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Hello - yes I'm taking heed of the advice, and am asking the luthier to see what can be done on the playability instead
The soundboard has no finishing - perhaps it's the lighting?
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suz_i_dil
Oud Junkie
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Sure , from the lightning, make me in doubt about it.
I had some excellent results taking off the polyurethan varnish on two ouds. It is oftenly made as a cosmetic finished, can look thin, but actually
can be in real seriously thick and kill the sound.
Out of the advice of playability and tuning keys , this is the most basic improve advice I came to encounter.
But all in all it is also a matter of équilibre , for exemple if the soundboard is also thick it wouldn't change the sound do much...so all in all
better to discuss those issues with the oud in the hands.
Best of luck !
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