| Pages:
1
2 |
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
I'm finally able to be here again, and what a fine occasion this is. I want to thank Dr.Oud for this wonderful discovery, and as ever Mike for making
all of this happen. Jameel you never cease to amaze me my friend, keep it up all of you. This art needs folks like you.
Now let's talk about a very famous Nahat oud in these quarters. Much has been said about the oud below and it's great attributes. But very little
was known about the original owner....that is until now:
He was a brilliant composer, one of the greatest ever. He was also a great player...and a knowledgeable oud collector with an exceptional taste for
timeless pieces like this one. His collection included more than 36 ouds from all the great masters. Including several Nahats, Goerges, Gohary...and
others.
Some of you may have guessed his name already...I'll post it this evening (8:30GMT)
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
You know him and I'm sure most of you admire his work:
Mohammad Al Qasabji
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
Sidi,
Welcome back. We missed you! Now I'm dying to know how this oud was owned by Qasabji, and how on earth it ended up gathering dust in a guitar shop in
California.
P.S. I heard from a close friend that at Simon Shaheen's concert last night at MIT, dedicated to Farid and Asmahan, he performed on an oud of Farid
himself, the one that Farid used the most, right before the highly inlaid one he used before he died.
|
|
|
habeebkum
Oud Maniac
Posts: 99
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: newcastle, uk
Member Is Offline
Mood: arab!
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
hi jameel, do you or does any body else have any recording of the concert?
habeebkum
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
Hey Jameel,
Simon Shaheen is truly worthy of his status, and deserves even more for his contributions. I really hope to see some media from that MIT concert.
I want to clear a common misconception about Farid's infamous inlaid oud. Many people think he started using it shortly before he died, and that is
wrong. Farid first appeared with that oud in the movie "Afrita Hanem^", back in 1949. But he had actually
purchased it earlier in 1943.* So when he performs "3Ish Anta", in his 1973 movie "Zaman Ya Houb" the oud is some 30+ years old!
Yet somehow it still had a brand new looking face...and an incredible sound, needless to say.
*Check elrabee3's post below for an interview with Farid on that.
^typed in a hurry earlier...thanks rabee3
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sidi
Hey Jameel,
Simon Shaheen is truly worthy of his status, and deserves even more for his contributions. I really hope to see some media from that MIT concert.
I want to clear a common misconception about Farid's infamous inlaid oud. Many people think he started using it shortly before he died, and that is
wrong. Farid 1st appeared with that oud in the movie Habeeb El Omr, which saw his debut as a film producer back in 1945! I understand he purchased
it a couple of years prior to that. So on the film footage where he performs Ish Anta, the oud is some 30+ years old! Yet somehow it still had a
brand new looking face...and an incredible sound, needless to say.
P.S: I will post about "Si M'hammad" shortly. |
Very interesting Sidi! I'm working on getting a recording of that concert, and some pics of the oud.
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
Here it is...the man and his
oud:
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
** As you can see from this rare photo, it is indeed "Si M'hammad's" oud. The ivory fingerboard was replaced/reworked somewhere along the way.
Given the quality and the style of those modified inlays, they may have been done by a Nahat.
-- Case Closed --
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
Wow, Sidi! Really neat info. Incredible.  So the mystery remains, how
on earth did this oud end up in a guitar shop in Southern California, purchased by Hamza El Din for less than $100? This oud should be in a museum.
|
|
|
TruePharaoh21
Oud Junkie
Posts: 789
Registered: 3-17-2003
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving the Oud
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
What I want to know is... which shop in Southern California was it? I'll go every day until a Nahat ends up there. And to think... for less than 100
bucks... If Hamza el-Din is reading this... I'll give you 150!
How long ago was the oud bought by him?
And... on a side note... Sidi, would you happen to be Sidi Mohammed, from the farid-el-atrache.com forums? If so... it's been a while, man!
TP21
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
Thanks Jameel,
That's the missing part of the story. How can a great piece of our history be sold for 100 bucks? One can only speculate on the events that led to that tragedy. Still I do have some views on the matter, I will
post them soon.
I want to say that I'm glad Mr. El Din rescued this oud. But I do believe he should act towards ensuring a safe and permanent home for it...like a
museum.
There is an even more disturbing side to this story. As I said above Qasab was an avid oud collector, he probably owned some 40 ouds or so...where
are they today? No one really knows...
| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
I think I recognize Qasabji playing with Umm Kalthoum on the Tunis satellite tv channel Saturday nights. Or is that Sombati?
|
Yes Doc, it is Qasabji...Sunbati would never be in that seat.  Not that it
takes anything away form Qasab, but his reasons are not shared by his student/colleague. Qasabji was not just being "Awwad UmmKalthoum" from that
seat, as is commonly perceived. He played the crucial role of synching the orchestra to UmmKalthoum's feeling and emotions as she performed. He
basically used his oud to set the tone and pace of the entire performance to her preferences. Which was exactly what Farid did in his concerts. This
subject deserves further elaboration. I will come back to it soon.
P.S: Hey TP it's me..
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
Sidi,
I look forward to more of your thoughts on this subject.
I also noticed that at some point the fingerboard of the oud was modified. It looks like the original was just plain bone or ivory, but in Daniel O
Donnel's photos, it is clearly inlaid. I wonder who was responsible for this modification....
|
|
|
TruePharaoh21
Oud Junkie
Posts: 789
Registered: 3-17-2003
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Loving the Oud
|
|
Qassab and his Nahat
Sidi!! I'd like everyone to know that this guy is the biggest source of information that I have really ever encountered. He knows all the cool little
informational bits that make everyone walk away from their computer amazed. I still remember when you told us about el-Bidaoui and Farid. My goodness,
man, you're quite the storyteller.
Sidi... I also remember that you were notorious for making us all wait for more info. A greaaaat storyteller, I tell you.
It's good to know that you're here, man.
Bring on the info.
TP21
|
|
|
Mike
Super Administrator
Posts: 1568
Registered: 12-3-2002
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Happy
|
|
Hey Sidi,
I agree with TP...you are THE storyteller! Nice to have you back bud. I love the collages you made of Qassab and his oud! Looking forward to finding
out more. Hey, I split the previous thread b/c I think we have two topics here, and I think both are important and very very interesting. I hope you
don't mind bud.
Take care,
Mike
|
|
|
Amos
Oud Junkie
Posts: 405
Registered: 3-26-2005
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Hi everyone,
It should interest everyone to know that my teacher, Al Bardezbanian,
owns a Nahat identical to the one that is being discussed here. Peter Kyvelos restored it and it appears to be exactly the same design as the one in
the photos above. There was some talk of there being only one other like it, owned by Hamza El Din. Peter almost bought the oud years ago, and just
missed the opportunity for a reason that I cannot recall! I will try to get Al to post some photos of his Nahat...it is truly a work of art, and as
Sidi said, it belongs in a museum. I played it once, and it was like holding a living creature in my hands! All the best, Amos
|
|
|
habeebkum
Oud Maniac
Posts: 99
Registered: 2-20-2005
Location: newcastle, uk
Member Is Offline
Mood: arab!
|
|
its great to log into the forums and learn so much about the history of different ouds it gives life to every oud and makes you think of them as living things instead of just objects. thanks sidi for all this info
habeebkum
|
|
|
Jameel
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1672
Registered: 12-5-2002
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
|
|
Amos,
I know Al, he's a great guy. You're lucky to have him as your teacher. Hamza's oud and Al's oud share a few similar features, but are far from
identical. For others who want to compare, check this thread. I'd have to say though that after Hamza's Nahat, Al's Nahat is the second nicest Nahat
I've seen.
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=322#pid1422
This morning I also received the following message from Daniel O'Donnell, the man who was kind enough to send me the original photos that I posted of
the 1917 Abdo Nahat, and who is a personal friend of Hamza's. He asked that I post his note to me here. His comments and opinions are his own.
Jameel
I have just looked through the link that you e-mailed me. I have a few
thoughts to share, and I wish you would pass them along to the mikeouds
discussion (I am at work now, and must send this quickly!).
The first comment is that I am very glad that forum participants are paying
attention to the history of the Nahat family and their ouds, and I am also
glad if in some small way I helped this process.
The second comment is that I find it unseemly to read what may be (or may
not!) innuendoes about how Hamza El Din acquired this oud, and what will
become of it. About the former, by both accounts of how he acquired it, one
from Hamza himself (he stated to me he actually paid aout $300 for it in the
1970s, and the consumer price index has increased 400% since then - so,
about $1,200+ today), he acquired it in good faith in a used instrument shop
in neglected condition, not as illicitly-obtained goods. About the latter,
Hamza is still alive, well, and performing: he is 76, and survived a stroke
a few years ago, and has performed in recent months in Russia and New York
City. He may be in the sunset of his life, but his light is brighter than
ever - and I am certain his able and supportive wife, Nabra, has received
his instructions about how to dispose of his estate, when that time comes.
The oud is of museum-quality, but it is also a remarkable musical
instrument, and I hope it wil be available to a musician whose skills are
worthy of it. I for one am much more concerned about what will become of
his field recordings. Nubian traditional music is nearly gone, given what
has happened in Sudan, and while in this forum Hamza may be seen only as an
oud performer, in the larger world he is thought of as an
ethnomusicologist-composer-performer along the lines of Bela Bartok, who has
worked far from his homeland for most of his life.
I think we need to have a very close look at the inscription on the shamsa /
soundhole ornament. My Arabic-reading skills are not good, but there
appears to be a dedication to the person for whom the oud was commissioned:
Hamza said he was told it was made for a Syrian amir during Ottoman control
of Syria. This makes me wonder how Qasabji obtained it.
About Qasabji, as-Simbati, and Umm Khalthoum, the political exigencies of
that time are fairly well-documented. The combination of Qasabji and Umm
Khalthoum was due not to artistic choice, but to political manipulation.
The President of Egypt had absolute control of the media, and who was
allowed to perform on TV and radio, and funding of orchestras, and so on:
as-Simbati was part of a rival political group and was pushed aside when the
combination of Qasabji and Umm Khalthoum was decided-upon. In Egypt, and
elsewhere, the old-timers still hold Riyadh as-Simbati in high regard.
Thanks for listening,
Daniel O'Donnell, Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Hi,
Mike thanks for giving my humble contribution it's own full thread. I'm also
glad you like the collages. Pictures like "Qasab and his oud" give us a nice window on history.
My thanks to TP, and the cool folks who posted here. I really hope I can live up to your appreciation. You raised the bar for me, but your energy
keeps me going.
Jameel I would like to thank Mr.Odonnel for sharing those nice pictures, before I comment on his email to you and us.
First let me say that my posts were in no way insinuative of Hamza El Din, or the way he purchased this oud. If anything I was " glad
Mr. El Din rescued this oud" That is how I continue to see his side of the transaction. Beyond that, I reserve the right to
express my discontent with such a sad situation. I do find it unseemly to throw 1200$ and a nation’s history in the balance. I do not want to see
that oud or any other masterpieces jeopardized like that anymore. That is why I wanted everyone to know the true value of this oud. It is also why
I still ask Hamza El Din to plan for the oud's safe being.
| Quote: | From Daniel O'Donnell’s Message to Jameel
I think we need to have a very close look at the inscription on the shamsa /
soundhole ornament. My Arabic-reading skills are not good, but there
appears to be a dedication to the person for whom the oud was commissioned:
Hamza said he was told it was made for a Syrian amir during Ottoman control
of Syria. This makes me wonder how Qasabji obtained it. |
I’m surprised you say this…the Shamasa happens to be least exciting aspect of the oud…bar it’s craftsmanship of course. It is a standard
model you can find on many Nahats, including Al Bardezbanian’s. If you read it carefully you will be able to recognize the names of all the Arabic
Maqams and Ajnas. The writing in the middle reads, “Abdo Nahat and (his) Sons” the -prince of a- luthier who made the oud.
You can crosscheck the maqam names here: http://www.maqamworld.com/maqamindex.html
Did Hamza El Din ever mention who it was that told him about the elusive prince?
| Quote: | From Daniel O'Donnell’s Message to Jameel
About Qasabji, as-Simbati, and Umm Khalthoum, the political exigencies of
that time are fairly well-documented. The combination of Qasabji and Umm
Khalthoum was due not to artistic choice, but to political manipulation.
The President of Egypt had absolute control of the media, and who was
allowed to perform on TV and radio, and funding of orchestras, and so on:
as-Simbati was part of a rival political group and was pushed aside when the
combination of Qasabji and Umm Khalthoum was decided-upon. In Egypt, and
elsewhere, the old-timers still hold Riyadh as-Simbati in high regard. |
Forgive me for saying this, but this part of your message is almost laughable. I tought we were the ones who suffered from conspiracy theories. For starters, Qasabji’s last contribution to Umm Kulthum’s repertoire was his
work in the movie “Fatma” in 1948 way before the Nationalist era. Naser was a die hard fan of U.Kulthum, and he wanted her to join AbdelWahab for
a high profile collaboration. Both resisted for a full year, then Naser personally asked them again. The two finally got together for “Enta
Omri” an all time classic.
So why was Qasab so attached to U.Koulthoum? Love…pure and simple. He was deeply in love with her since 1923, and had hoped she would marry him
some day. It turned out to be one sided…at least from a romantic point of view.
I still want to clear more points, but I'll stop here for today.
Thank you all,
Sidi
|
|
|
Daniel Donnell
Oud Admirer
Posts: 2
Registered: 7-28-2004
Location: Portland, Oregon
Member Is Offline
Mood: Listening
|
|
Good evening, gentlemen,
Well, maybe I'm getting cranky in my middle age!  Let's begin by
saying I am not interested in discussing early 20th century Egyptian politics in an oud forum. When I read through this thread the first time, two
things stood out a bit among all the very fine contributions (and thank you all!). One was that if I owned a great oud, I would be taken aback to see
people whom I might or might not know discussing what would happen to it after my demise. I could go Sufi on you and say we never really own such
things, but there are other websites for that kind of discussion. The other was that AS A THREAD within this thread I picked up on the disappearance
or dispersal of the Qassab collection and the re-appearance of at least one of them in southern California, of all places, where it was acquired by
Hamza.
About the shamsa, two thoughts:
I can read the maqam and the little band of numbers, and the signature in the center, and even the maqam groupings. What I cannot read, because the
calligraphy is very elaborate and the letters overlap, is the first band around the signature center, and this appears to be a dedicatory inscription.
Hamza told me, and this was a long time ago, that the person who sold him the oud had passed along the story about it once belonging to an amir in
Syria, but where the seller heard the story, I do not know.
I had a brief exchange with Rufie Richard Barnes about instrumental acoustics in general and about this shamsa in particular: the shams, which is 4
5/8" wide, is unusually large, especially when compared to Turkish ouds ... and it is bone or ivory laminated to a dark hardwood ... with a total
thickness well over 1/8". Even with much of this cut out for the calligraphy, this places a huge and rigid mass in excess of two ounces right in the
center of the soundboard. My thought is that this mass displaces much of the resonance of the primary tone, leaving the higher overtones in acoustic
"relief" as it were, which gives this oud its remarkable bell-like resonance. Think of the tabla drum of India with the layered-up rigid patch in the
center: the primary tone of the drumhead is diminished by the patch, and the other tones, the overtones or harmonics, are much louder as a result.
Now, I am not a builder, but I think this could be very useful information to those who are. A simpler way to attain this overtone-enhancing effect
might be to glue a ring of very hard wood around the shamsa on the underside of the face. In my humble opinion, luthiers pay a great deal of
attention to bracing, and not enough to other factors like the mass of bridgeplates and so on.
I'm tempted to address another sub-topic I see in this thread, about heritage value of such works of art, and where such items rightfully belong, but
I'l leave that one alone after mentioning there are two valid perspectives that contradict each other (there goes the Sufi again!): cultures sometimes
go off track, and destroy their own heritage (just look at what happened in present-day Afghanistan in recent years), so it may be a good thing that
so much of value lies n protected status ... but, when cultural artifacts and treasures are curated and collected outside their context, the
inhabitants of that context are denied access to something that gives them continuity in their civilization. Sometimes cultural treasures can be
re-introduced, however. For one fascinating example of this, John Baily at Goldsmiths College in England is currently re-introducing the music of
Afghanistan to its homeland from "exile" status.
I do go on a bit - good night! - Daniel
|
|
|
elrabee3
Oud Junkie
Posts: 264
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: in LOVE
|
|
welcome back Sidi. i alwyes enjoy reading ur posts.
i hope u dont dissapear again. ur posts are required.
as usual, nice discussion. i remember i read somewhere that Qasab used to collect ouds, and he used to hang them on the wall in his appartment.
BTW, abadi el johar own one of qasab's oud. he bought from eygpt, he found the oud, and he liked the sound of the oud, after he bought it, he found
out that the ouds was one of qasab's ouds.
Jaber
elrabee3@gmail.com
|
|
|
elrabee3
Oud Junkie
Posts: 264
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: in LOVE
|
|
| Quote: | Originally posted by Sidi
Hey Jameel,
Simon Shaheen is truly worthy of his status, and deserves even more for his contributions. I really hope to see some media from that MIT concert.
I want to clear a common misconception about Farid's infamous inlaid oud. Many people think he started using it shortly before he died, and that is
wrong. Farid 1st appeared with that oud in the movie Habeeb El Omr, which saw his debut as a film producer back in 1945! I understand he purchased
it a couple of years prior to that. So on the film footage where he performs Ish Anta, the oud is some 30+ years old! Yet somehow it still had a
brand new looking face...and an incredible sound, needless to say.
P.S: I will post about "Si M'hammad" shortly. |
check this audio file, fareed is talking about that famous oud. it is very old oud.
Jaber
elrabee3@gmail.com
|
|
|
Sidi
Oud Maniac
Posts: 94
Registered: 2-6-2004
Member Is Offline
Mood: Very Sad...
|
|
Hala Jaber,
This is a fantastic contribution, it will help clear a few misunderstandings about that timeless piece.
The Highlights:
* Farid hints to his ownership of many many ouds
* He only loves two of them (at the time of this interview)
* He says the inlaid oud was purchased in 1943 from an "artist of a luthier" in Halab (Aleppo).
* He was told it took 2 years in the making, after which the maker decided it should be given to him (Farid).
* Comments about the unusual coexistence of a wonderful sound, and mother of pearl inlays in that oud.
Great Stuff Jaber,
Sidi
P.S: Jaber check your PM
|
|
|
elrabee3
Oud Junkie
Posts: 264
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: in LOVE
|
|
Farid used that oud n many of his movies. if u remember he used the same oud in Lahen el khlood movie (1952), Men Ajal Hobi (1959), Shate` el hob
(1961), plus his last two movies zaman ya hob (1973) and Nagham fe hayati (1974)
picture from movie (men ajal hobi) from the introduction of song (hekayat Garami) when farido played austrias
Jaber
elrabee3@gmail.com
|
|
|
elrabee3
Oud Junkie
Posts: 264
Registered: 12-19-2002
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: in LOVE
|
|
anoter picture from the same movie.
Jaber
elrabee3@gmail.com
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2 |
![[*]](images/xmbprobrown/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
