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DD
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Another Sound Hole Question
I know that there has been talk of this before, especially at Soundholes, An Oud's Moment of Truth, and Sound Holes and Sound; still I'm moved to take another pass from another angle. I'd like to ask:
If we had two ouds that were the same in every way, except that one oud had only one sound hole and the other oud had three (in the usual pattern),
what differences might we expect to hear between the two?
From what I've read and thought through so far, I wonder if perhaps the oud with three sound holes might have a slightly brighter tone with more
emphasis on overtones, and maybe a little more projection, and perhaps the oud with one sound hole might have a more bassy tone with more emphasis on
the fundamentals, maybe a bit more 'laid back' and softer? This is just conjecture on my part; I'd love to hear from people who are experientially
more intimate with the matter.
Thank you.
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Elie Riachi
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I agree with your analysis. All things being equal, a soundboard with three holes is lighter than the one with a single hole and lighter tends to
favor higher frequencies. Also the holes size have tuning effect on the cavity (bowl), the sizes of three holes combined can be larger the one.
Elie
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SamirCanada
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I dont think it would be possible or practical to build exact same ouds with different number of holes. The reason I think that is because the bracing
is what greatly influences the sound and I do think that they require a totally different positioning of braces. So It comes up to being mather of
luck and workmanship art from the maker...really since it would be almost impossible to get identicaly sounding ouds. Since all the details that make
it vibrate are verry hard to control even down to the way the glue cures and what type of glue is used.
I think what your saying is generaly right but just look at the old Gamil Georges and the older Nahats they had one round sound hole and I think to
this day they have the fullest register. Whether its the bass or trebles they sound full all the way. Possibly the age of them could be a factor but
when Farid, al-sonbaty and Qasabji were playing them. The ouds werent That old yet.
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oudmaker
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DD
Just close your ouds two small holes with a cardboard and try to compare the sound of same oud with and without small holes and let us know what you
have found.
Dincer
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DD
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Thanks for your input, Guys. Good points, Samir. I realize that the matter is far more complicated than that simple question I presented, practically
speaking; my hope was to have a theoretical model that might sort of isolate and illustrate the contribution of the one-or-three-soundholes element in
the oud's design. It was like saying, "If we had two houses that were identical except that one had an eastern exposure and the other a western
exposure, what differences might we expect in temperature and light?" While there would be many factors that an architect would employ and integrate
to optimize temperature, light, and other elements, if the client was trying to wrap his mind around one of those factors, eastern/western exposure,
or exposure in general, he might mock up this kind of hypothetical illustration as a tool. As you can see, I'm still trying to wrap my mind around
sound holes. Every little bit of perspective helps; all your comments are great and appreciated.
Would love to hear about your new Shehata, Samir—one sound hole or three?? :-)
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Elie Riachi
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Now Jameel should be able to comment here since the first oud he made was a single hole and the latest is 3-hole (assuming that structurally
everything else about the two fabulous ouds mainly similar, especially the bracing)! What do you think Jameel.
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SamirCanada
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My new oud is made with one sound hole this time.
I have had both types and I think what you say is partially true as far as the difference in sound types but definetly I think the actual volume
depends more on the torque the strings have against the face. I will lay down some samples so you can tell me if you can tell the difference in
sounds.
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SamirCanada
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Here is a 1 sound hole oud made by Tayyar
this is one of the oud I use to own and it had one soundhole It has a verry deep voice and I would say I think it would have been a good studio
instrument since there was close to no buzzing at all when I played it.
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SamirCanada
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This would be my Yammine oud wich has 3 sound holes
But still this is like comparing to house wich dont come from the same part of world and have different windows. I mean its Not like anyones should
draw the ultimate conclusions in terms of sound. But if your looking to buy a oud it might help you slightly personaly I find both have there charm
and both also need to have the proper mood and atmosphere with the listener.
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Elie Riachi
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| Quote: | Originally posted by SamirCanada
My new oud is made with one sound hole this time.
I have had both types and I think what you say is partially true as far as the difference in sound types but definetly I think the actual volume
depends more on the torque the strings have against the face. I will lay down some samples so you can tell me if you can tell the difference in
sounds. |
Hi Samir,
I am not talking about volume, I am talking about high and low frequencies as in Hertz. And I agree with what you say regarding volume, torque as
well as tension would play a main role in volume. I think when it comes to making stringed instruments, soundboards and their bracing are still a
little secretive art.
Edit:
Very good playing Samir. The single hole has a deeper sound but not as strong.
The Yamine oud sounded deep still but was also as rich in the higher notes as the low ones and very strong sounding, nicely balanced. It is one of
the best I have heard so far aside from a Na7at, provided that the recording environments are equal, which is hard to do. My $0.01.
Elie
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Jameel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
Now Jameel should be able to comment here since the first oud he made was a single hole and the latest is 3-hole (assuming that structurally
everything else about the two fabulous ouds mainly similar, especially the bracing)! What do you think Jameel. |
Well, this latest oud was not braced like the first one at all, really. I departed quite a bit from that pattern (Richard's book). The first oud was
also much smaller than this one (hard to tell from pics), and it had a Turkish oud scale, 58.5 cm. This one has a 61.5cm scale. I also made the
soundboard thicker, and the bracing heavier. The two ouds sound nothing alike, in my opinion. I don't know enough to speculate on the 1 vs. 3 hole
comparison. But I do know that Nahats made both quite regularly.
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SamirCanada
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Yah those ouds have nothing in common either so I guess it doesnt make for a proper comparasion. Like the tayyar had a narrow body and wasnt so deep..
but still it sounds the deepest?  The scale on the tayyar was the same as a
regular Iraqi oud and the yammine is 61 or something like that. Good to hear your take on it too Jameel.
Thanks for your comments about my oud Elie but I dont see the Nahat resemblance. Or else I would definetly not sell it. Well knowing that some Nahats
go for 20,000$ Maybe that's what I should ask for it LOL 
Anyways I think Jameel's new baby is going to be a nuclear bomb of a oud. But now that we have you here Istaz Jameel. What made you go away from your
first oud with the one hole and use the 3 hole sound board? Was it just looks?
Thanks
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revaldo29
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Samir,
I agree with Elie, your Yammine oud sounds really really good. I mentioned that to you when you posted that video. You'll be very happy with
your new shehata too.
Ever since you mentioned tuning the oud down a quarter of a step, I tried it on my shehata. That alone made my oud sond 10x better. Before
tuning the strings down, I actually started looking into a second oud. Maybe an Amin or something with a deepr more bassy sound. The sound coming out
of my oud was not really the type of sound I was looking for when playing oum kalthoum or imitating a taqassim by el qasabji. The sound was almost too
metallic. But now, every stroke of the strings is full of tarab. It sounds so rich and warm. This goes back to what you mentioned about torque. Just
lowering the tension by a little made a tremendous difference in the type of sound produced. I wish I had a deascent mic so that I let you guys listen
to the difference. But yeah, from the little little knowledge I have about oud structure, there is a lot more than # of sound holes that goes into the
type of sound you want. What I don't understand however are arabic ouds with 61 cm string length, one sound hole and a floating bridge. What purpose
does the floating bridge serve?
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SamirCanada
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It Also gives you a different sound.
Too many options Iam affraid. I still havent received my strings for the oud I changed from a regular brige to a floating brige oud. I know it sounds
much more open now. Its a really nice thing this floating brige it gives you more control I find and I find it easier to play all along the strings.
Like with a regular brige I end up playing much closer to the soundhole. I rarely play right next to the brige cuz it seems the strings are under too
much tention. Its not the case on floating brige ouds I have played.
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Dr. Oud
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I've heard some sensible and nonsense in these replys, so I'm compelled to add my observations from my experience. I had no teacher or training or
book or anything to guide me so I acquired broken ouds - some were Nahats, some Karibyan, some others, and measured everything I could. I found so
much variation that I couldn't arrive at a formula for what makes one good and the other not. I've played different Karibyans and these are about as
consistent as an oud can get. He had his bowels made in Germany at some lute factory to his specs, so they were all identical. He built every
soundboard precisely the same, and still they each sound a little different. There is a qualiity of sound common to all, but each has different
characteristics anyway.
As for the 1 or 3 hole question, there's more than holes involved here. The response of the soundboard is altered radically when you cut holes in it,
so the bracing will have to be different for each style. The tonal characteristices are the most difficult to predict in structural terms. Certainly
the location and size and shape of the braces is critical. Another important consideration is that the oud is made with such delicate structure that
the margin for variation is very narrow. With a more robust structure like a guitar, there is more wood to work with to "tune" the sound. Violins are
built with extra thickness and carved to produce the best resonance for each violin's structural and indiviual wood characteristics. The best ouds
seem to be built teetering on the brink of collapse, and that is where the best sound is it seems.
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Jonathan
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Dr. Oud, your knowledge of the oud is a lot greater than mine, but I just wanted to elaborate on one thing you mentioned. Karibyan did not start
having his oud bowls made in Germany until approximately 1971 (as well as the peg boxes). Before that time, I believe, they were made in his shop in
Istanbul. He died in the mid 1970s (1976?), so it is a relatively short period that this occured in. Some luthiers and players note a drop in the
quality of his ouds at that time, although I know of a few from that era that sound superb.
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Elie Riachi
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Looking at the soundboard from a different angle:
It is natural that larger surfaces have Lower natural frequencies than smaller surfaces. I think of the 3-hole board as being of a smaller surface
area than the single hole since more surface has been removed with the 3-hole, hence favoring higher natural frequencies, provided that all other
things are equal (which is hypothetical.)
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jonathan
Dr. Oud, your knowledge of the oud is a lot greater than mine, but I just wanted to elaborate on one thing you mentioned. Karibyan did not start
having his oud bowls made in Germany until approximately 1971 (as well as the peg boxes). Before that time, I believe, they were made in his shop in
Istanbul. He died in the mid 1970s (1976?), so it is a relatively short period that this occured in. Some luthiers and players note a drop in the
quality of his ouds at that time, although I know of a few from that era that sound superb. |
Johnathan - Don't confuse building experience with historical knowledge - I defer knowledge of Karibyans to yourself, but John B. mentioned the German
thing and I didn't know what the details of that outsourcing was. Thanks for enlightening me.
Elie - As to the larger/smaller surface natural frequency thing, yea, ok, but when you put a brace across the surface you interrupt the waveform and
create a nodal point, no? So a 1 holer can have fewer braces, or at least a different pattern than when you cut the additional holes, which dictates
at least one brace placement. We're dealing with interrupted surfaces here after all. Anyway, I maintain that in the case of ouds, there is no such
thing as "all other things being equal". That's my story and I stickin' to it.
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Jonathan
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I am definitely not an expert on it, I just try to pick up info where I can find it. John B is really the expert.
Thanks for all the info. I am enjoying this thread.
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Elie Riachi
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I agree Doc. I am only talking in the case of the hypothetical situation which was proposed and started this thread.
I didn't think that the brace positions would have to be different based on the number of holes. But even in this case (I am thinking out loud here,)
in the case of the 3-holer, wouldn't that force some braces be positioned closer to each other, leading to shorter separation between some nodes and
therefore a natural bias to the shorter wavelength or higher frequencies?
Not saying that a 3-holer cannot be forced to tone down the higher frequencies if desired, but is there an advantage there?
This is very interesting and I am glad it is being discussed. Eager to explore.
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
As for the 1 or 3 hole question, there's more than holes involved here. The response of the soundboard is altered radically when you cut holes in it,
so the bracing will have to be different for each style. The tonal characteristices are the most difficult to predict in structural terms. Certainly
the location and size and shape of the braces is critical. Another important consideration is that the oud is made with such delicate structure that
the margin for variation is very narrow. With a more robust structure like a guitar, there is more wood to work with to "tune" the sound. Violins are
built with extra thickness and carved to produce the best resonance for each violin's structural and indiviual wood characteristics. The best ouds
seem to be built teetering on the brink of collapse, and that is where the best sound is it seems. |
Yes, more than holes, and doubtless more subtlety involved with the holes themselves than we might be able to discuss in concrete terms.
Thinking of all that I've read here and of my own experience with master craftsmen, I can't help but imagine what we might hear if we could magically
ask a member of the Nahat family what made him choose to configure a particular oud in the three-hole pattern. While we might hear about the
characteristics of the particular soundboard wood he'd chosen and how thick he planned to make it, and about the wood and pattern he would be using
for the bracing and so on, at the same time I would not be surprised to hear more subtle and/or poetic reasons having to do with the sound of the wood
when he tapped it or the overall feeling of this particular oud—or that he didn't know why he had made that choice, but he knew that it was the
right choice.
While master craftsmen always seem to know just what to do, they don't always know just why. After all, a major part of their very
mastery of the craft is intuitive—we might even say instinctive, especially if they're from a long family line!—and with those subtle perceptive
faculties, it seems that sometimes "knowing why," because it can be a stepped-down and incomplete version of the whole story, gets in the way and is
as much a hindrance as a help. That intuitive side of the work is one of those areas where the best way to get what we want from the artist-craftsman
is to make our suggestions and then to step far enough back for him to employ the secrets that only he can know and to work the magic that only he can
work.
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Elie Riachi
I agree Doc. I am only talking in the case of the hypothetical situation which was proposed and started this thread.
I didn't think that the brace positions would have to be different based on the number of holes. But even in this case (I am thinking out loud here,)
in the case of the 3-holer, wouldn't that force some braces be positioned closer to each other, leading to shorter separation between some nodes and
therefore a natural bias to the shorter wavelength or higher frequencies?
Not saying that a 3-holer cannot be forced to tone down the higher frequencies if desired, but is there an advantage there?
This is very interesting and I am glad it is being discussed. Eager to explore. |
OK, but I don't know how to make a hypothetical oud to analyize the results. So if the discussion is only in theroretical terms I'll step aside and
let you rocket scientists work it out.
Concerning the brace positions, they don't have to be different, certainly, but the holes do require a brace under them to support the holey
soundboard, now interrupted and reduced in area by said holes.
Something I haven't heard discussed is the Helmholtz effect, which is to say , ahem.. Air is pumped in and out of the body by the vibrating
soundboard. With one hole, the soundwave being reflected out from the body is affected by this pumping action. By adding another hole or holes, this
affect is nullified. The guitar builders are just recently discovering this (although Ovation did it years ago), and some are adding holes in the side
facing the player to enhance his liistening pleasure.
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DD
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Dr. Oud
OK, but I don't know how to make a hypothetical oud to analyize the results. So if the discussion is only in theroretical terms I'll step aside and
let you rocket scientists work it out.
Concerning the brace positions, they don't have to be different, certainly, but the holes do require a brace under them to support the holey
soundboard, now interrupted and reduced in area by said holes.
Something I haven't heard discussed is the Helmholtz effect, which is to say , ahem.. Air is pumped in and out of the body by the vibrating
soundboard. With one hole, the soundwave being reflected out from the body is affected by this pumping action. By adding another hole or holes, this
affect is nullified. The guitar builders are just recently discovering this (although Ovation did it years ago), and some are adding holes in the side
facing the player to enhance his liistening pleasure. |
Your eminently and elegantly practical orientation is the sort of thing that keeps the theory in touch with the reality that it's about. Your input is
invaluable; I think we all appreciate your not stepping aside. :-)
How Does a Guitar Work? is a nice little article with valuable links Re Helmholtz resonance and relevant related stuff.
Thank you Elie and Richard for sticking with it.
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Elie Riachi
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Thanks for the link DD. I remember running across this interesting site in the past. According to the Helmholtz effect equation, the frequency
increases (high pitch) as the size of the hole increases or the volume of the body gets smaller. So to emphasize lower frequencies (bass) one would
reduce hole size or increase cavity (bowl) volume. It also gets more complicated if the holes are different shapes. Interesting.
Doc, I do not know about DD, but I am a rocket scientist
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DD
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Uh-Oh!
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