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sydney
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Risha Techniques ... are there any rules to go by?
Hello
I get that question from many.
A lot of people are wondering if there are any rules for the risha.
Should it be down - up ? or down , down - up ? or what?
This is a question for all oud players to jump in and talk about.
Any opinion counts
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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Jason
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I think it depends on the technical demands of the music as well as the style/inflection you need to produce.
For example, I almost always use downstrokes on drone notes because I feel I can get the string moving better with a downstroke and it gives it a bit
more sustain. The music also plays a role in this... downbeats should almost always be played with a downstroke whereas pickup notes should usually
be played with an upstroke unless you want them to be emphasized.
When using alternating strokes it's important to make them as economical as possible. It is preferrable to avoid picking 'inside' two strings... you
wouldn't want to be stuck playing downstroke C string / upstroke G / Down C / etc. It is much more fluid sounding to play it using the opposite
motion.
I use the same general guidelines that guitarists use to choose either an up or down stroke. That said, I also pay close attention to what oudists
do, there is definately a tendency in oud music to use many more downstrokes than you'd see most guitarists do. It's hard to make 'rules' about such
things because every player will do things slightly different.
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Greg
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Jason
... you wouldn't want to be stuck playing downstroke C string / upstroke G / Down C / etc. |
That is precisely the action that I find most difficult and therefore spend the most time practicing.
I believe that particular action is a very necessary one in oud playing, particularly in fast passages.
I am pleased that Sydney raised this subject, as I would love to hear if there are any rules that the different schools of oudists follow.
I find myself doing straight alternate up and down strokes at most times and that seems okay, provided I play the upstrokes as cleanly as the down.
But I feel sure there must be some "proper" rules.
Regards,
Greg
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SamirCanada
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I think Ronny Andersson had a lot of info on the risha techniques. Especialy since the Iraqi school stresses the use of all the different risha
techniques. It would also be nice to see how they compare to the syrian and egyptian styles.
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billkilpatrick
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the sound you wish to make - plus comfort - dictates how it's held. if it doesn't feel right and doesn't sound right, don't do it.
i prefer a sloppy risha to one held tightly - high in "mish" low on "crisp" - with a bit more of the tip of the risha striking the strings than is
normal.
early on, i copied the position of a tunisian player i saw in a photo and slipped the end of the risha between my ring and little fingers so that it
exits the palm there.
listen very carefully and do whatever ronnny tells you ...
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sydney
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Technique
| Quote: | Originally posted by billkilpatrick
the sound you wish to make - plus comfort - dictates how it's held. if it doesn't feel right and doesn't sound right, don't do it.
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This is a very good advice - I wrote that down to always remeber. Thanks Bill
| Quote: | Originally posted by billkilpatrick
listen very carefully and do whatever ronnny tells you ... |
I did not get that one? who/where is ronny ?
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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billkilpatrick
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ronny is one of those nordic trolls you hear about who live in caves and under bridges and frighten the wits out of passing billy goats.
he is also very knowledgeable of all things oud(y) and very generous with it. he used to have a beautiful site called "iraqi oud" or something like
that but the last time i tried it, the server he uses (used?) seemed more intent on hooking me up with a swedish "escort" than telling me the where
ronny and his ouds had gotten to.
he sometimes contributes to the site. find his name in the archives and send him a u2u message or better yet, search the archives for what he and
others have said previously on the subject.
ciao - bill
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sydney
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That was funny Bill
I did not realize you were talking about Ronny Anderson.
Yeah he is very knowledgeable of all things oud(y) and very generous with it. I totally agree.
I did a quick search but did not find where he talked about this subject ... please kindly take me there.
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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billkilpatrick
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"risha" produced a long list of prior posts but this was mentioned in an earlier thread called "can someone explain" posted on 5-13-2005 by "egypt
omar":
http://www.oud.eclipse.co.uk/plucking.html
ronny's old site:
http://www.iraqi-oud.com/
doesn't function any more, at least with my search engine.
you might also try:
http://www.oudcafe.com/
mavrothis has posted very clear instruction on this as well as many other things relating to the oud.
ciao - bill
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Jameel
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Remember these threads?
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=1767#pid112...
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=648&pag...
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LeeVaris
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Right now, in my ongoing evolution as an oud player, I am obsessing over risha technique. I have tried numerous hand positions, grips, hard and soft
risha, exotic materials and shapes for risha. I am certain that you can develop a technique for anything but at the moment I'm favoring Jameel's
"Tortis" risha and a medium hard "Delrin" plastic material used for Harpsichord plectrum (the Delrin actually has a softer surface with a little less
"click" than the Tortis picks)
The most important part of risha technique is developing a relaxed hand! Don't grip too tight... practice slow tremolos and gradually speed up without
"tightening up". Up and down strokes are executed with the wrist, not the arm or hand - small movements instead of wild arm swinging. Your arm should
float a bit, craddling the oud loosely - resist the temptation to crush the oud with your arm and shoulder - sit up straight, as much as possible and
relax the shoulders - let gravity gently pull down the shoulders, don't lift them to get over the oud. Relax, relax, relax the hand and arm! The only
slight tension you should feel will be in your forearm to control the rotation movement necessary for the risha stroke.
The second area to develop, after you can relax enough, is control over the risha's angle of attack. A grip with the risha through the ring and little
fingers ( like what Bill uses)will give you a steep angle and a harder sound. It will also limit the variety of angles you can employ so I don't
necessarily recommend it. Besides this angle there is the relative flatness to the face the the risha can assume - flater angles will give a softer
sound - you can get it so that the underside of the risha brushes over the string or so that it strikes the string straight up and down, perpendicular
to the face for a very hard crisp sound. The direction of the stroke also comes into play. Different sounds can be had with the risha movement across
or pushed into the face. Rest strokes, where the risha comes to rest on the next string in a down-stroke, create a great "punch" for emphasis. The
depth that the risha travels into the string should also be considered. You should develop the ability to vary the stroke for creative effect but
always remember to RELAX...
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sydney
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Thank you Bill and Jameelo
I'd like to put the question into more accurate form.
Let's take a scale that goes Low to High C,D,E,F,g,a,b,c and the same scale going the opposite way.
What is the best risha technique used to play that scale in both directions?
Also when studying or playing a maqam ... is there a risha rule to be used?
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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Brian Prunka
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For classic Arabic playing, the guideline roughly seems to be: if you can play it with a downstroke, do it. This gives it a more 'Arabic' character,
as opposed to Turkish. Try to watch Arabic oud players; a lot of things that I initially thought couldn't be played with all downstrokes turned out
to be possible, and I wouldn't have known without seeing it done.
At moderate tempos, quarter notes and eight notes should usually be all or mostly downstrokes. In many muwashahat, basharef, and sama'iyat, even
16ths should be played with mostly downstrokes (depends on the tempo).
Regarding the down/up string crossing, I think Grag and Jason are both right. Players traditionally avoid the down/upstring crossing from higher to
lower, as it is the most difficult motion, even if it puts your upstroke on the beat and your downstroke off the beat (which is not a problem if you
have worked to make the two strokes even or if you wish the passage to be syncopated). However, certainly modern players like Simon Shaheen (and
probably Farid, though I can't be sure) have worked at developing that down/up string crossing so that it is fluid. Also down/down is an excellent
choice for many string crossings in both directions. When going down/down from a low string to the immediately higher one, make sure that it is done
without a separate stroke--it's more like one big stroke with a slight pause in the middle.
Lee has some excellent suggestions, particularly about being able to vary the angle of the risha against the string. I notice that when Simon plays
really fast, the risha is closer to perpendicular (though not totally). When he plays normally, it is at a much steeper angle. Control over the
angle also makes the different string crossings easier.
Also, try to avoid hitting the face of the oud with the risha (though this can be an effect, it's not something you want to do all the time).
Also, make sure that your risha is prepared by being far enough above the string to have some momentum, and that you follow through enough to get a
clean stroke. A mistake a lot of beginners make (including myself) is to think that you have to hit the strings hard for a big sound, while trying to
stay as close to the strings as possible. While you don't want to have your hand all over the place, you do need to get some momentum going.
Usually, if the risha starts level with the string that's two below the one you want to hit (say if you want to play the G string, your risha will
start out level with the A string), then you're fine. For very fast passages, it should stay a little closer. Think of a baseball player; if he
wants to hit the ball when it's nearly beside him, he starts with the bat way behind him and follows through until it's in front of him. By having
the motion right, you can get a big sound without hitting too hard (which makes it louder, but hurts the projection because it's not clear).
Also, in between strokes, see if there's any hesitation (a mirror helps). Many people (again, myself included) develop a habit of rushing into a
note, preparing for the next note too early, then hesitating before rushing into the next note. Try to get multiple strokes in one fluid motion . . .
it's like a circle.
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Brian Prunka
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Hey sydney, our posts crossed in cyberspace . . .
I'll try to answer your post.
Assuming that the scale is not slow enough that all downstrokes would work, here's a few possibilities:
] = down, < = up
C] D] E< F] G] A< B] c] B] A< G] F] E< D] C]
This is the most common, but you have to work on the down/down string crossings, especially on the descending scale.
You could also do:
C] D< E] F< G] A< B] C< B] A< G] F< E] D< C]
but this requires the down/up string crossing from G to F descending.
You could also mix the two versions.
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sydney
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Now we are talking
Hello Brian,
I believe you have taken this thread into the right direction with your last post. . But of course I have to thank Lee for his input and I want to ask
him a favor later on...
I have learnt the first technique over ten years ago.
] = down, < = up
C] D] E< F] G] A< B] c] B] A< G] F] E< D] C]
as you said it is the most common. I do find it the best technique with fast scales I am not sure if any other members have different style for fast
scales.
The second style is also fine but it can not be fixed rule as you mentioned in your G to F example.
Mixing between the two what we end up doing with time and experience. But...
Is there any steps to help oud beginners to follow a rule to practice on any piece of music? so they end up with a some kind of brain registry
and it becomes an automatice style.
can that be made possible?
__________________________________________
Lee, always nice to read your posts mate.
Watching Simon Shaheen or any other profesional oud player does not make it clear or easy for oud beginners to learn how to hold the risha the
right way.
Can you please take a photo looking from above to how you hold your risha showing the angle of it on the strings? I am sure it will favor your
explaination. Also if anybody who is willing to provide a good photo of how to hold the risha please do.
Kind Regards,
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Emad
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billkilpatrick
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if i understand correctly, regardless of how the risha is held, there are prescribed - ] = down, < = up - sequences for each modal pattern.
is that right?
- bill
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Brian Prunka
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Hi Bill,
i think that ultimately, the performer decides on a pattern based on their taste and the particular piece of music. I don't think one can say there
are prescribed patterns.
Some things that are taken into consideration:
tempo
accents
phrasing
ornamentation
origin of the piece (some Turkish pieces really require a different approach)
there are probably many others that people can add.
the above example is just for a scale, not for a piece of music, and the demands vary quite a bit depending on the specifics. If I had a scanner, I'd
be happy to mark up an actual piece of music with suggestions and post it . . . but I don't. Maybe someone else can?
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Jameel
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Practical application
Brian,
As always, very helpful info.
I'm curious as to how you would "pick" this passage from Tanrikorur's "Samai Nahawand" played here by Simon Shaheen.
I know for a fact that Simon plucks the bass A with a downstroke, then begins the alternate A Ab A Bb passage with a downstroke on A. It's strict
alternate picking playing that part four times in a row. After that, I'm not sure what to do. I've tried strict alternate, and it would seem that's
the best choice due to the speed of the passage. I'd also like to know your opinion on positions and when to shift during this passage.
Here are the notes:
A Ab A Bb (x4) C# Bb C# D E D E F G F G A Bb
How I've been playing it. using strict down-up, except C# Bb C# sequence all down to eliminate that difficult down on c up on g pattern. Although at
top speed that seems impossible.
note, finger : 2A 1Ab 2A 3Bb (x4) 1C# 3Bb 1C# 2D 4E 2D (shift) 1E 2F 4G 2F (shift) 1G 3A 4Bb
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Jameel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by sydney
Also if anybody who is willing to provide a good photo of how to hold the risha please do. |
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Jameel
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...closer
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Brian Prunka
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Jameel, I think your picking is right, with C# Bb C# being all down.
It seems impossible at top speed, but I think that's how simon is doing it. Note the slight pause between the first C# and the subsequent Bb . . .
An alternative fingering is possible in this part:
C#1 [shift] D1 E3 D1 [shift] E1 F2 G4 F2 [shift]G1 A3 Bb4
but I think yours is better pecause it preserves the symmetry of the finger motion.
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billkilpatrick
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by slowing it down, in a conscious effort to follow the exact up/down sequence of my risha, i noticed something i've not understood before from this
or any other thread dealing with the risha.
this may be complete and utter poppy <b>rooster</b> but here goes ...
instead of consciously applying the tip of the risha to the strings in a "one stroke down, return stroke up" manner, what i do when i play is work the
risha over the strings in what ever way that comes naturally for the rhythm and is coordinated with the activity of my left hand. in other words,
instead of focusing my attention on the tip of the risha (down for one note, up for the next) what i'm focused on is where my thumb and forefinger are
holding the risha and keeping my wrist loose ... the half inch or so of the "business end" of the risha, extended towards the strings, just happens to
be picking out a melody in consequence.
i hope i've made a clear distinction and i hope i haven't just given you all a perfect description of how NOT to play the oud ...
- bill
poppyrooster?!? how about what i wrote, which was poppy<b>rooster</b> ... poppy rooster!?!? do you belive it?
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LeeVaris
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I think the photo of Simon is very telling. Simon holds the oud like many arabic players with his shoulders relaxed and his arm coming around the rear
of the instrument. This places his hand/arm parallel and inline with the strings. The risha is pointing up so the flat part is angled down, flat part
facing the strings - when the risha hits the string in a down stroke it will push the string slightly into the oud causing the string to vibrate in
& out from the face - you get a completely different sound - rounder with a swelling volume - than when the string vibrates side to side across
the face. This hand position favors volume on down strokes which definitely makes sense with arabic style!
Although its really hard to see, Munir Bashir's hand position in the video with Omar posted on the videos page, is very different. The risha, for the
most part points towards the pegbox, almost paralel to the strings - he generally takes a straighter attack with the risha more perpendicular rather
than angled. The risha doesn't enter the strings as deeply and the result is a thinner crisper sound. Of course both musicians mix things up a bit
from these basic approaches for dynamic variation.
In the video the good doctor posted, John Bilezikjian, like many Turkish players, holds the instrument with his arm resting over the top edge - the
right arm hangs down across the strings at an angle. This places the hand a little closer to the sound hole and also allows for easier movement
forwards (towards the sound hole) and back (towards) the bridge. It also means that the risha will tend to angle down onto the strings rather than
angling up. The risha is still flattened towards the string but the action is slightly angled across the string during the stroke - the sound here has
yet another character. You can really see how relaxed John's hand is even when playing rapid notes. His wrist is verrrrry loose, yet he gets a very
authoritative attack and the risha clears the string quickly.
Every great player develops a technique that ends up being very individual and the quality of sound comes from a combination of factors - most
importantly risha technique. Now, if I can just figure out what Farid is doing...
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Jason
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Greg
| Quote: | Originally posted by Jason
... you wouldn't want to be stuck playing downstroke C string / upstroke G / Down C / etc. |
That is precisely the action that I find most difficult and therefore spend the most time practicing.
I believe that particular action is a very necessary one in oud playing, particularly in fast passages.
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I should clarify that I wasn't suggesting one should avoid picking inside the string altogether. It's definately something everyone should practice
and eventually be able to do as well as any other pattern. There are situations where you will you have to use that picking action, it's just not
the most economical of approaches.
I've been experimenting with holding the oud and risha more like Shaheen. I find it tiring to come from behind the oud as much as he does, I think I
just haven't found the exact position I need to be in.
Cool thread!
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LeeVaris
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More Photos
Here are some shots of my teacher Wa'el Kakish:
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