mysticoud
Oud Addict
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Floating bridge (Bashir)
I was just looking at Dimitris' Bashir type oud at his site, I think I'm in love...
Does anybody know if the floating bridges have any advantages over the classical bridge? I've heard that they sound different, but how so?
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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hi. what i've heard is that the bachir oud was designed specifically to give the most optimal projection and tone. it involves the floating
bridge of course, but also the top and braces of the oud.
Munir Bachir designed it with the help of European physicists I think. Pretty cool...
later,
mav
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
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>Munir Bachir designed it with the help of >European physicists I think. Pretty cool...
I really don't know where you got this from? Mohammad Fadel was using the classical mandolin as inspiration.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Since the floating bridge does not depend on the glue joint of a conventional oud bridge, it can accomodate more pressure with higher pitch, more
strings, and/or larger string guages. Any of these will produce a stronger sound waveform. The Bashir oud has a different structural design to
compensate for the higher pressure capacity of the floating bridge. If you try to put a floating bridge on a conventional oud, the face will depress
and may collapse from the compression pressure. In addition the face of a Bashir oud is set at an angle to get pressure on the bridge while
maintaining a playable action/string height. Then there's the shape of the body.....
There's more to it than just a tailpiece and floating bridge.
Richard
http://www.droud.com/
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pevelg
Oud Lover
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Is it worth it???
I am mostly interested in Arabic Ouds for there deeper sound... I listened to the clip of the Bashir and it is very nice. Is that the deepest
sounding oud there is??? Also, would it be better to buy the bashir or the arabic oud. Which would have the greatest playability and sound?
Pevel G.
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Email: pevelg@ownmail.com
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pevelg
Oud Lover
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is this a bashir???
One of my favorite oudists is Naseer Shamma... I was wondering if the oud he plays is also an Bashir. Here is a beautiful video clip of him playing
in a small band. The file is just amazing!!!!
Stream: http://www.orientaltunes.net/realvideo/Ya_Msaharni-56k.ram
Download: http://www.orientaltunes.net/realvideo/Ya_Msaharni-56k.rm
Also, does any one have a mp3 of his work intitled Baghdad Night??? A very pretty and sad piece.
p.s. You can hear short audio clips of Naseer Shamma at his website:
http://www.naseershamma.com
 Enjoy!!!
Pevel G.
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Email: pevelg@ownmail.com
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Mike
Super Administrator
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Hi Pevelg,
That was a nice rendition. Listen to this one from the Tarab Website. This is one of my favorite songs for Om Kalthoum.
http://music.6arab.com/makawi..ya-msaharni.ram
There's a lot of nice videos on the Oriental Tunes Website. Thanks for pointing it out.
Take care,
Mike
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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thanks for these links guys, they kick ---!
haha i love ud!
| Quote: |
I really don't know where you got this from? Mohammad Fadel was using the classical mandolin as inspiration.
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I don't remember where i heard it, but i'm pretty sure it's reliable. the floating bridge idea is old, Bachir didn't invent it (it
really goes back to Pythagoras at least), but i think the total design and the tuning of the Bachir oud involved some original thinking that involved
some scientists. at least they weren't designing bombs for once... haha
mav
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
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About Bashir
Dear friend,Pythagoras at least was one of the ''owners'' of this technique about the bridge.....you see my friend,I will have the
opportunity to purchase one of Dimitris's Bashir,and I can proudly tell you that I like it alot.....I invite you to see our new Bashir-Type ouds
in a few time,and to hear the sound and ''live'' if you want to by visiting us.....
Regards and respect,oh and for them that they don't believe about Pythagoras,they can search about the ancient Pandourida.....
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
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does it worth it?
Yes my friend,I belive that every type of oud is an investition,a goodone,because the quality of the sound is a very important thing in our
days......That's why I am going to have 7 ouds in a few weeks..... ,and I
hope and a bowled tanbur[yagli tanbour] .....hehehe,
the instruments,and the music keep our spirit bright and alive....it's the voice of our soul.....regards
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Ancient Instruments
Pythagorus is acknowledged to have developed many mathmatical theroems, however I could find no reference of their direct application to musical
instruments. Neither could I fnd any theroy of vibration, wave propagation or related subjects atributed to Pythagorus. Stringed instruments
pre-dated Pythagorus by about 2,000 years anyway.
The oldest intact stringed instrument is the great golded lyre from the royal cemetery at Ur, Sumeria, c2500 BC. http://www.nicholas.k12.ky.us/academics/Humanities/sumerian_music.h...
I once found a book on Music Anthropology in the music library at UC Berkeley that had clay tablet dipictions of Sumerian musicians playing lute-like
instruments, (although the detail didn't reveal if the bridge was floating or fixed).
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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dear dr. oud. what i was referring to was the single string instrument Pythagoras used to measure frequencies. this is very well documented. try
the book: TEMPERAMENT, by Stuart Isacoff. Pythagoras used a board with a single string and a movable bridge to determine the natural harmonics,
which Middle Eastern music is based on, along with all the modifications and changes that have been made from the many theorists that have followed
him (and of course that preceded him). like i said sir, this is well documented. i didn't mean that Pythagoras invented oud or anything like
that. as for the fact that around 7000 yrs ago people in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and other adjoining areas were playing instruments very much like what
we play today, nobody disputes that. That's one of the beauties of playing ud, tanbur, etc now. this doesn't lessen the contributions of
Pythagoras though, or make them less real.
i think you need to relax, i'm not an ethnocentric fanatic or anything. you should really try out this book, TEMPERAMENT. it's very
interesting to see how science, philosophy, religion, and even politics went into how our different musics are played today.
| Quote: |
Neither could I fnd any theroy of vibration, wave propagation or related subjects atributed to Pythagorus.
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the question is, have you even looked?
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Temperment and the Bashir oud
Well all righty then. My search engines didn't find a reference to this book. So I haven't read it, but I did read this review:
http://www.powells.com/review/2001_12_13.html
While it is a very interesting subject, (the measurement of intervals), it seems to be concerned with the study of tempered intervals and how to
achieve harmony tuning a piano. Since the oud is fretless, this is not a problem as the udist will naturally adjust their finger position to
"temper" the interval that might sound dissonant on a fixed interval type of instrument (like a piano). Interesting stuff, to be sure. How
it relates to the design of a Bashir floating bridge oud I still don't know. I'll look into the book and see if it was overlooked by the
reviewer.
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mysticoud
Oud Addict
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This is getting very interesting. I'd like to hear more about the designing of the Bashir oud (...calling Dr. Oud). How does the oud accomodate
such downward force; heavier bracing pattern? What other things are different in a bashir oud compared to a traditional arabic oud? Was it
intentional, in the design, to leave out the rosettes? So many questions...
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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You can also look here for a general summary of some impacts he had on music. Most encyclopedias should have some basic info.
encyclopedia entry
You should get the book, it covers from Ancient Greece to modern times, and discusses a lot about his contributions, and of course many others'.
It's only around $10 on Amazon.com.
it really has nothing to do with the bachir oud, i only mentioned the floating bridge used by pythagoras in passing the first time. i agree with you
that many things go into the making of the bachir oud, i was just answering the comments you made about pythagoras. if you remember you made an
entire post about that
later,
mav
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Bashir Design Features
The bracing is a bit heavier than a "traditional" oud, but the big difference is the way the face is supported. In normal ouds the face
floats on the braces and is not supported by the edge of the top ribs. The braces are then only butt joined to the inside of the top ribs. The Bashir
design by Fadel added a corner fillet around the inside perimeter of the face, and the braces are locked into notches in the fillet strip. The Bashir
face is also a little thicker than a Nahat, for example.
I don't know why there are no roses. I saw a concert by THe Bashir Oud Ensemble, with 15 Bashir ouds! It was on the Kurd Sat Telsat -5 sattelite
channel. Some had roses, some didn't, but from what I could tell, they all had floating bridges... 15!!
There are reinforcement plates inside the rose holes. The body is a little flat (not a full hemisphere) and the tail end returns about 3mm.
Richard
http://www.droud.com/
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mysticoud
Oud Addict
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Are you talking about kerfing, or just a solid thin piece of wood around the inside perimeter of the bowl?
Why don't they use kerfing in ouds? It seems like it would make the whole structure more stable, and a lot easier to attach the binding or
outside marquetry.
Does the Bashir oud face arch as well?
Thanks for your replies.
Dr. Oud,
Have you added the Bashir oud into your book yet?
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Dr. Oud
Oud Junkie
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Bashir Design
It is a solid piece, and not that thin, either. It's triangular, about 10mm on the legs and a full chamfer on the inside. I believe it is solid
to add to the strucure of the body to resist warpage due to string tension. Ouds will eventually warp or curl up over time and raise the action to an
unplayable height. The only remedy is to remove the face and trim down the top edge of the bowel. I tried kerfing once and it muted the sound of the
oud so it sounded like a guitar (no offense, just a different sound).
The face appears to be flat across, and bent from the rose hole to the tail with a 10mm drop. The original design had the face bent below the bridge
like a mandolin.
The Bashir design, plans and instructions will be published as an addendum after the project is completed. It's currently in a holiday delay, and
will resume in January.
Richard
http://www.droud.com/
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mavrothis
thanks for these links guys, they kick ---!
haha i love ud!
| Quote: |
I really don't know where you got this from? Mohammad Fadel was using the classical mandolin as inspiration.
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>I don't remember where i heard it, but >i'm pretty sure it's reliable. the floating >bridge idea is old, Bachir didn't
invent it >>(it really goes back to Pythagoras at l>east), but i think the total design and >the tuning of the Bachir oud involved
>some original thinking that involved >some scientists. at least they weren't >designing bombs for once... haha
mav |
If you spend some time doing serious research, then you would know that the long necked lutes with floating bridges came before the short neck lutes.
The Bashir oud has nothing to do with your wild speculations, it's a very recent creation; based on the mandolin!
Best wishes
Ronny
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mavrothis
Oud Junkie
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man, you need to relax. chill.
a really talented and respected oud player here in the us told me about that. are you on drugs man? what is your problem? i'm not going to
bring a respected player's name into a ridiculous conversation, if you can even call it that.
by the way, i'm done with this thread. you can go on all you want, i'm not wasting anymore of my time here.
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Ronny Andersson
Oud Junkie
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mavrothis
man, you need to relax. chill.
<a really talented and respected oud >player here in the us told me about >that. >are you on drugs man? what is >your >problem?
i'm not going to bring a >respected player's name into a >ridiculous >conversation,
i>f you can even call it that.
Please study medieval sources and learn then you don't need to rely on a ¨respected oudplayer¨. |
Best wishes
Ronny
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TruePharaoh21
Oud Junkie
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Can't we just accept this as a difference in information? One person got one side, another person has the other... it's ok! No need to throw
down your gloves and start killin each other yet. Maybe a little of both is right. I like to see people excited about the oud, but don't pull
knives on each other just yet. Chill!
We're all lovers of the oud here... if anything, it's good that there are a lot of different sources to tell us about things like this. It
shows how much the oud has come up in history and it's importance.
I respect both of your sources, but please... let's respect each other.
Peace,
TP21
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
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Location: WASHINGTON DC
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As I said and before
Well....what can I say.....some people don't really respect some civilisations,ancient as the Greek and the Arab,well dear friends at least we
are the owners of those traditions and civilisations,of those cultures,some others just lent them to make an good impresion.....that is my last word
about this subject....some people can open the simple school books of history and Culture that they are in Greece,as far for my country and the
oud[ancient Pandourida]was used in our temples at least 2500 years ago......so I wan't play with the words.....I am very proud to make a thing
like that.....,as for the floating Bridge,Pythagoras was the soul of the Mathematics ,and if someone is a little bit wise can search about that and
the ancient ""Kanonas"",So ,if some people want to learn some more,they can search at the elementary school books....Regards to
all the people that they apreciate and have in theyr culture the oud ,and of course to the others that they respect at least the history of
them....The patience has limits,and the respect has principles .....
Spyros
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