Jameel
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Oud Tonewoods, modern and historical aspects
The following was posted by our friend revaldo29 in another thread. I thought it would make an interesting thread on its own.
| Quote: | Originally posted by revaldo29
from what I understand, rosewood is a far superior wood. |
Not necessarily. Although the back (bowl) wood does not effect the sound to a high degree, from what I've heard, the use of certain woods does have an
effect. I think it would be more appropriate to say that rosewood imparts a different character to the oud. For one, it may impart a more brighter
sound. It's a heavier, denser wood. I don't think anyone here would say that a rosewood oud of equal quality is far superior to a walnut oud. Case in
point, most Nahats are made with walnut. I think the use of rosewoods for ouds is a rather recent occurence, (just guessing here) perhaps because of
the popularity of that wood's use in steel string guitars. But the oud historians here would know more than I. I'd like to hear from them.
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revaldo29
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Hey Jameel,
Thank you for addressing this issue. I too have always wondered why most (maybe all) of the old ouds I have seen online have had walnut bowls. My
question is, why do most luthiers charge more for rosewood ouds as opposed to walnut? I paid significantly more to have my bowl made out of rosewood.
Adnan
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mjamed
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I guess because it was harder to get rosewood (like indean or brazilian rosewood) in the old days whereas walnut was availabe locally !
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revaldo29
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| Quote: | Originally posted by mjamed
I guess because it was harder to get rosewood (like indean or brazilian rosewood) in the old days whereas walnut was availabe locally !
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Yeah but didn't the Nahat family relocate to Brazil? This means they would have access to such woods.
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billkilpatrick
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i assume that the first bowl back instruments were carved from one piece of wood. could it be that walnut, being the preferred wood for carving,
became preferred for lath constructed bowls simply out of tradition? charangos are carved from one piece of wood - neck and peg board included - wood
from fruit bearing trees being preferred. rose wood is usually used as an alternative to ebony for the fingerboard.
i was told recently that a plectrum instrument has somewhat thicker wood and slightly heavier construction than a plucked or - presumably - bowed
instrument, such as a european lute or violin. is this true?
- bill
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oudmaker
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Gentlemen
Here are the woods prefered by old timers as "musical woods" I have been told:
Spruce
Cedar
Mullberry
Chestnut
Sycamore
Maple
Most of fruit trees such as Plum, Olive, Apple, Cherry
Walnut
Also those are the woods readly available in middleast
Mahagony, rosewood ebony were from India. They are not considered as "musical" Most of so called Ebony ouds were made of ebonized walnut.
Regards
Dincer
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Hosam
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The most important tonal characteristics of wood used for the bowel is the transmitting and reflecting properties. While Walnut is good transmitter
and reflector, Rosewood is rated as excellent in both. Other commonly used wood: Maple very good transmitter, Mahogany and Ebony are good transmitter
and reflector.
As for the tonal quality it seems that the general rule is that wood with higher density will emphasize lower frequency range giving a better bass
response (Ebony and Rosewood have a higher density than Mahogany, Walnut and Maple). Maple will have a bright sound and the higher frequencies will be
emphasized. Walnut is somewhat in between so it is an average performer or a good all around if you think of it this way.
Many oud makers will also use Teak (Saj Hindi in Arabic which is actually comes from Burma). Ovangkol is used by Ibrahim Sukkar in his high end ouds.
I would like to know what kind of spruce is mostly used for the soundboard as there are many different types. I am especially interested if anyone has
experience with Carpathian or Adirondack.
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Peyman
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Any comments on Sycamore? It looks very nice but I don't know about its hardness and tonal qualities. Also how come no one uses mulberry on ouds? It's
beautiful and has very good tone.
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Hosam
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Sycamore/Cypress with Cedar top is good combination. It is a popular in Flamenco guitars construction. This combination gives a warm mellow sound.
While Cedar is less stiff than Spruce it opens up and be in it's best on new instruments in much less time than Spruce.
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Longa
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Hello
As far as I know the makers in Egypt use the word Indian Saj
''Sag Hindi'' on the Indian Rosewood. But I have not seen somone using teak and calling it Sag??
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Ronny Andersson
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Hosam
Sycamore/Cypress with Cedar top is good combination. It is a popular in Flamenco guitars construction. This combination gives a warm mellow sound.
While Cedar is less stiff than Spruce it opens up and be in it's best on new instruments in much less time than Spruce. |
The so called cedar used for Flamenco guitars is not a true cedar specie and is very different the true cedar used for ouds in the past.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Hosam
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Thank you guys for your comments.
Saj is the name for Teak (Tectona Grandis) in Arabic, Persian and in Hindi. Other local names in South East Asia are sagon saigon, saj, taku, kayum.
Please see this link for more information
http://encyclopedia.jrank.org/TAV_THE/TEAK.html
East Indian Rosewood (Dalbergia latifoloa) is different kind of wood.
I was referring to Western Red Cedar (Thuya plicata) or simply known as Cedar. Here is a link to LMI http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=++Tops+%...
I am not sure what kind of Cedar is used in the Middle East. Perhaps some of fine oud makers in this forum can help us with more information.
I am posting some photos for an oud bowel made from Teak and a Teak lumber next to it. This oud has a Cedar soundboard. Another oud made from rosewood
or khashab ward in Arabic. The last photo for a cedar soundboardand a flamenco guitar made from Cypress.
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Hosam
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Saj Bowel and a Teak lumber
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Hosam
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Notice that the Saj oud has no neck. This is what happen when you have two 4 years old running arround the house. 
I am working on the fix.
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Hosam
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Cedar soundboard and Cypress flamenco guitar.
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excentrik
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I'm wondering which woods are indigenous to the areas that are commonly believed to be the beginings of the oud (egypt, balad al-sham and iraq?).
maybe we can narrow down old historical accounts (please do, I have finals and papers to write!!!).
I'm sure there are thousands of documents about the trading of certain types of trees that aided agricultural innovation during the early periods.
Walnut, apricot, olive, and cedar are all indigenous to Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt and parts of the Meghreb (north Africa). So what was
the original use of imported woods and trees?
Which woods come from India? I know people said Mahogany and Rosewood. (in a historical argument) they have probably been used by instrument makers
for quite a while, the woods probably followed the tea trade...???
Which woods are from the "west"? Maple? I guess we can narrow it down with historical takes on irrigation, water distribution (some trees have been
used to ward off floods in areas that are close to major riverways because they require more water to survive).
I'm not an expert... please someone, help us!!!???
sorry about all the questions, maybe it helps...maybe it don't- this is a really interesting subject (history buffs anyone?)
Tarik
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Ronny Andersson
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>sure what kind of Cedar is used in the Middle East. Perhaps >some of fine oud makers in this forum can help us with more >information.
There are mainly the two species Cedrus libani and Cedrus atlanticus. I've seen some new ouds from Maghreb with soundboards made of cedar but the
quality of the wood was poor (atlanticus).
I don't think there are any oudmakers in the Middle east which can get cedar the legal way since old stock of this wood is very rare.
Some suppliers in UK have libani cedar for sale but the timber is from trees in UK (to much rain) so more suitable for furniture making.
Best wishes
Ronny
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by excentrik
I'm wondering which woods are indigenous to the areas that are commonly believed to be the beginings of the oud ....
Tarik |
Here's a page from Gilmar Wood Compaly that lists woods with their origin.
The cedar used in old ouds most likely was Cedar of Lebanon (Cedrus libani ), which is no longer available. It had characteristics different from the
cedars from other places because of the local climatic conditions that influence growth, moisture content, density (growth ring and cellular) that
affect the stiffness of the piece. Variations like these are common in all tone woods and the experienced luthier adjusts the structure of the
soundboard accordingly. Ideal tonewoods come from cold dry climates that cause slow growth that makes for dense dry wood.
The common spruce species used for soundboards are: European spruce, also known as German ( although no German spruce is harvested any longer). The
spruce from Turkey is similar to European spruce. Engleman spruce which comes from Canada, Andirondack spruce from eastern US and also very rare. Each
variety has it's uniqe tonal characteristics, but these can be affected by the structure and thickness.
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sydney
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Hosam
Thanks for sharing this oud photo,
I have fallen in love with the oud that has a neck. It looks lovely indeed. Do you mind sharing a photo of it in full please? Also where do you get
your oud stand that this oud is sitting on? I'd like to see a photo of the stand too please.
Thanks heaps
Kind Regards,
------------------
Emad
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Hosam
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Thank you Emad. I have posted the photos in a new thread
http://www.mikeouds.com/messageboard/viewthread.php?tid=3616&pa...
to stay within the topic of this thread.
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AGAPANTHOS
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Dear friends,
It is very risky to drow general conclusions as far as concern the value of the extensive use of rosewood in the construction of the bowl because
there are so many kinds of wood belonging to the rosewood family (Dalbergia) and their acoustical and mechanical proprieties and behaviour greately
varies according to a numerous factors and parameters.
Nevertheless, the conclusion that a rosewood bowl is more propable to produce a brighter sound with a more distinctive high harmonical serie is, from
at first glance, true, but this is not only a function of the wood of the bowl, but it depends on so many other factors such as the quality of the
sounboard , the bracing system itself, the bridge e.t.c. e.t.c.
We can accept that the denser and the heavier woods in the bowl of the instrument (or woods with low degree of dumping )usually tend to produce a
brighter sound in comparison with bowls constructed from medium density and specific gravity woods such as walnut, pearwood ,field maple, black
mullbery, Honduras mahagony e.t.c. But this conlusion is still very general and doubtful because there are so many other factors that play an
essential role, in the oscillation sequenses.
Here, the initial question addressed to the luthier is to know what is the desired sound of the instrument, and the critical question is the coupling
of the top/soundboard and the back/bowl.
A stiff soundboard needs to be coupled with a certain type of wood for the bowl (stiffness to mass or stiffness to weight ratio), while a weak top
with low elasticity -plasticity ratio needs to be coupled with another type of wood for the bowl .
Both questions, in sequence, are very essential to the choise of wood for the bowl and constitute a fertile field of discusion, expertise and
research.
Finally,i believe that it's no true that the use of rosewood in the construction of the bowl is a recent trend. In the guild of oud makers of Istanbul
it was widely used from the end of the 19th century.There are certain fine pieces of Venios (Manol) constructed from rosewood.
Kind regards
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excentrik
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just wondering, brazilian purple heart is beautiful- has any known makers ever used it in one of there ouds? does it make a good tonewood?
Also, I heard of this ancient australian bog-wood (I guess it has sat at the bottom of a bog for a few hundered years, its semi-fossilized from what
Ive heard...) would that be a good tonewood? I figure that density and stability cannot be the only factors, what about the microscopic level- does
a dense and dry wood have less microscopic pores, or holes? and does that play a role in achieving the best sound?
any makers? botonists? how about biologists- they could probably help...(joke)
sorry about all the questions, this stuff is interesting-
Tarik
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Ronny Andersson
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Lebanon cedar (Cedrus libani)
Best wishes
Ronny
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Dr. Oud
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| Quote: | Originally posted by excentrik
just wondering, brazilian purple heart is beautiful- has any known makers ever used it in one of there ouds? does it make a good tonewood?
Also, I heard of this ancient australian bog-wood (I guess it has sat at the bottom of a bog for a few hundered years, its semi-fossilized from what
Ive heard...) would that be a good tonewood? I figure that density and stability cannot be the only factors, what about the microscopic level- does
a dense and dry wood have less microscopic pores, or holes? and does that play a role in achieving the best sound?
any makers? botonists? how about biologists- they could probably help...(joke)
sorry about all the questions, this stuff is interesting-
Tarik |
Tone woods are light, stiff woods with straight grain structure. The only tonewood outside the fir
family used I know of is walnutm which is used for santur and setar faces in Persian instruments. Almost every other stringed instrumetn soundboards
are made from one of the fir family woods (spruce, cedar, pine)
There has been some attempts to make instruments from woods salvaged from the bottom of Lake Superior, sunk about 300 years ago during the first
loggging of the original growth forests of America. To my knowledge the guitars and violins made with this wood did not produce very good tone. There
is some speculation that too long under water leaches out all of the oils that help to keep the cellular structure intact. Fossilization is not good
for producing sound, it's like trying to play a rock.
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oudmaker
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Kanun face traditionally is made of Sycamore. After Onnik ( he was the first)some people are using spruce.
Dincer
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