ALAMI
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Stradivarius secret solved ?
A wood preservation technique was probably responsible for the exquisite sound produced by violins of the 17th-century Italian instrument makers
Antonio Stradivari and Giuseppe Guarneri.
Chemical analysis of wood shavings scavenged from two instruments while under repair has given fresh clues as to their exquisite acoustics.
Read the whole article:
http://www.newscientisttech.com/article.ns?id=dn10686&feedId=on...
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samzayed
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That's one of many theories I've heard. Another one was that during Stradivari's lifetime, there was an unusually cold period, which made the wood
denser. You can listen to this segment on NPR http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1544179
Nagyvary's theories are interesting, especially since he claims he can make you replica strad for $15,000 - $18,000 (not bad considering a Strad is
worth millions) http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/
Let me confess my darkest secret on this oud forum: I am an oud player, but if I had to do it all over again, I would have chosen the violin instead
 I would learn the violin now, but that would just spread myself too thin, and
there's not enough time at the momement. Maybe someday though, Inshallah 
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jdowning
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The theory about salts in the timbers affecting tone has been around for quite a few years now. It is thought that the salts found in maple used by
luthiers in Italy at the time of Stradivarius was because the logs were often floated in sea water as a means of transportation and as a means of
preserving the logs from splitting. This process known as "ponding" also results in partial seasoning the logs over time as salts absorbed into the
timbers displace water in the wood cells. To move even further away from ouds in this thread - the ancient harp builders in Ireland often made their
harp soundboxes from large timbers that had been buried in peat bogs for thousands of years - the timbers being transformed by absorption of the
salts in the peat bog. This material - bog wood - can still be found today in Ireland as well as other parts of the world.
I imagine that the presence of salts in the timber might affect the sound response of the wood but whether or not this is significant in the case of
Stradivarius violins - compared to other factors like instrument geometry, tuning of the top and bottom plates, varnish, quality of construction etc.
has yet to be demonstrated.
I reckon that the cold climate theory can be discounted because the period of climate change under consideration began around the time that
Stradivarius was born so it is very unlikely that he would have used maple that started to grow during his working life but would have more likely
used trees that were mature before he was born - say a couple of hundred years old - maple being a slow growing tree at best of times?
The other thing to remember about Strads. is that they have all been modified (re-necked) during the 19th C to withstand higher string tensions. The
only exception to this is the example in the Hill Collection in the Ashmolean Museum in Oxford, England that is thought to be pretty much in the
condition that it left the hands of Stradivarius. The 19th C modifications provided extra loudness from the instruments and tonal changes that were
music to the ears of 19th C listeners. So what we hear today from these violins is unlikely to be the sound that the original makers tried to achieve.
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ALAMI
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I am wondering if science can "discover" what is an artistic value, I believe that it can be partly done when science defines and measures the
characteristics of a sound that we perceive as being "beautiful" and then I remember a post I read on this forums from a guy saying that after having
gathered a great collection of ouds he still love and enjoy playing his first cheap oud. who would ever be able to measure this?
I will partly reveal a small secret, one of the members, he visits frequently but never posts, is a professor in a HiTech European university, he is
an oud player and lover and was conducting extensive oud measurments and studies in one of his laboratories, hope he will be reading this and will be
willing to tell us something about his sudies.
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jdowning
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An interesting question but one that I suspect is difficult if not an impossible thing to measure or resolve for there is no accounting for personal
taste in anything. What sounds like a great instrument to me (what I hear) may not sound good to another person (what they hear). Who is right? It
doesn't really matter on a personal level - what I like is what I like at the end of the day.
Nevertheless there may be some common factors of "goodness" in the sound of an instrument that appeals to all persons - high resonance, wide and
clearly defined spectrum of tone 'colours' for example - assuming, of course that everyone has equal hearing capabilities, which they do not due,
sadly, to age and excessive noise levels in our modern societies which can result in a permanent loss of our hearing abilities.
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samzayed
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Speaking of "oud measurements" I once heard that widest point of the soundboard should be twice the depth of the bowl. Has anyone heard this? I have
seen some ouds have this proportion and some not. Any ideas??
Looking forward to hearing more about the professor's observtions 
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Lintfree
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I once played a Strad at a shop in Seattle, a violin collector/maker named Charles Gengler. The workmanship on the instrument was perfect and it had a
projection that was otherworldly. I'm not a very good player and it made me sound quite good. Carved into the back was some sort of family crest and
it looked as if it had been done with a laser. Gengler said that the secret of Stradivari was that he did perfect work and knew his wood, that the
varnish was store-bought, but the filler he used was unique. He let his logs soak in a canal that contained all kinds of human waste and various
unknowns. Pleasant thought. "My Strad smells like poo." From the ouds I've seen taken apart, a Karibyan in particular, and the ones I own that are
exceptional, I would say that what is true for violins is also true for ouds. Great website by the way. D.Lindley
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stringmanca
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Mr. Dave:
I have been a fan of yours for a (very) long time and I would hardly say you are 'not a very good player'!!
Your affinity for 'non-standard' instruments was one of the forces that sent me in the direction of the oud - thanks!!
Welcome to the forum!
Nathan
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jdowning
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This thread reminded me about an ancient technique for seasoning/treating boxwood - not a 'tonewood' but notoriously difficult to season due to its
tight grain structure. The solution? - bury it a manure pile for a couple of years or so! As can be imagined the boxwood attains an attractive dark
'honey' colouration - as well as, presumably, becoming more stable. Not that I have ever tried it on any of my own stock of boxwood.
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Lintfree
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I wondered why I liked boxwood so much...poop. One way or another it all boils down to critters, bacterium and their kin
that go into the wood and do their thing. Porfirio Delgado, a guitarmaker
I used to hang out with said, "The worms and the bugs.....they know what's good." He'd always look for worm holes in the ebony and Brazillian rosewood
he used. He would also fire harden his fingerboards. People who make great instruments are often quite mad and don't pass things down. Vuillaum
(sp.?), a great French violin maker bought the Stradivari family furniture after the master died. The formula for the varnish was written into the
family bible. He memorized the formula then burned the bible to keep the formula secret. Now that's pretty crazy. Million dollar fiddles.
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jdowning
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An interesting book that I bought many, many years ago from Blackwells Music shop in Oxford (cost a whopping 17/6 then but now long out of print I
imagine) is "The Varnishes of the Italian Violin Makers of the 16th, 17th and 18th Centuries and their Influence on Tone" by George Fry, published by
Stevens and Sons Ltd, Chancery Lane. Mr Fry writes about his researches into early violin varnishes, their characteristics and how to make them - with
lots of formulae to boot. As far as I can recall they were all primarily standard oil varnish recipes with a coloured wash used for a ground
underneath. His clear varnishes had the 'dichroic' feature of the early varnishes - that is the light transmitted through them 'changes colour' as the
violin is moved in the light.
Never did try to make my own varnishes though - a slightly hazardous venture best done out of doors.
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jdowning
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For those interested, I have just checked AddALL Books online and find that my 1904 copy of the book now sells for between $80 and $150 but that
modern reprints are available for about $30.
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jdowning
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...... and for the really curious - but to take things a little more off topic (apologies) - here for comparison is the bell of a late 18th C boxwood
and ivory clarinet. The dark coloured boxwood I assume has been originally "pooped" (but now, thankfully, smells OK after a couple of centuries!).
Compare it to the light colour of the century old air dried piece of boxwood alongside.
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Lintfree
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Hi Nathan and thanks for your viewpoint. I guess my view of how I play comes from sitting across from John Bilezekjian and watching him play things
that are seemingly impossible. This is a great site and has lots of good info. I've already made several valuable contacts and learned a lot.
On the subject of varnishes: There is a drawback to doing a lot of French polishing. Hermann Walleki, the violin maker contracted toxic leukemia from
experimenting with solvents and variations on formulae when looking for the ideal varnish. It's what killed him. Respirators are a must, the kind that
handle fumes. And wearing gloves because it goes through the skin, in fact it's worse when it goes through the skin because you get way more of it.
As someone who used to work with zink plates and nitric acid, acetone and Borzoil I am a little gunshy when it comes to chemicals especially organic
ones. Cool runnings. Lintfree
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