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rebetostar
Oud Maniac
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Registered: 1-31-2007
Location: the East shore, BC
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Mediterranean/Mid-Eastern percussion
Hi Oudistes,
Just thought I'd chip in on this, since I'm a percussionist first and foremost (there was some interesting knowlege shared in the "Amine2 hijacks
another thread" thread.. really I don't see why the fellow deserves such a bashing.. but I'm staying out of it).
As I understand it, the word "tabla" is a generic Arabic word meaning drum. It's distinct from the generic "deff" or "daff" meaning tambourine or
frame-type drum. The Egyptian "riq" is a specific example of a deff-type drum. "Tabla" as a word came to India with the Mughals, thus the two-drum set
used for classical Hindustani music is called tabla.
The specific drum known as "darboukka" (English spelling varies quite a lot) is a goblet-shaped drum, originally made of clay and fish- or goat-skin,
now usually metal with mylar skin. When people in Arabic music say tabla nowadays, it's this drum they're talking about. Another distinguishing
feature is that the skin is very thin and tight, as tight as possible to produce sharp "tak" sounds. This makes is quite different from the Persian
Tombak or Zarb, which has a wooden shell with a thicker, slightly looser skin, making for a deeper tone and using different finger techniques. The
Turkish darboukka and Greek toumbeleki are pretty much the same as the Arabic tabla, slightly different shell shape and thickness, but with the same
very tight skin and sharp "taks" desireable.
In North America it's common to call the Arabic tabla a "doumbek" which I think came from the two main sounds, "doum" and "bek" but I don't think that
word is used anywhere else.
Happy to contribute,
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
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Location: California, USA
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Hi Rebetostar,
Language is a very tricky subject, particularly the study of how the meanings of words change and evolve over time. I am currently reading a book
discussing just that (Bernard Lewis' "The Language of Political Islam" which is interesting and valuable even if for those of us who don't agree with
his Neocon politics).
The Hebrew cognate of the Arabic "deff/daff" is "tof," which is used today as a general term meaning drums, and may well have referred orginally to a
frame drum, which is today called "tof Miriam" (after Exodus 15:20). But we have no way of knowing whether Miriam's drum was a frame drum (daff) or
tambourine (riq/daff/zilldef, etc.) this--just an "educated guess."
My point is that the meaning of words is pretty subjective and subject to politics. I am always very cautious about posting on this forum regarding
the ORIGINS of any word or instrument, since we are from diverse backgrounds...
Yeah, good question: How did we Yanks come to call it a "doumbek"? Maybe based on the Armenian "doumbeg"? Who knows?
Peace,
Udi John
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rebetostar
Oud Maniac
Posts: 96
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Location: the East shore, BC
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Mood: Ajam Ushayran
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Hi Udi John,
I'm fascinated with etymology and ethnomusicology.. how language and music technology and practice have evolved and migrated over time. I feel that
music and language transcend politics, even though often knowlege is shared as a side-effect of conflict..
This opens up a whole other thread which would be fascinating.
Miriam's drum..well it definately was a frame-type drum, which as a broad category seperates it from the goblet-style drums.. and as I understand it
the frame drum has a more feminine connotation, it may have been traditionally associated with women's music/dance?
The doumbek.. well clearly it's onomatopoeia.. by what route it came, who can say? It's the most-understood word for that drum in English Canada, too.
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excentrik
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 5-19-2004
Location: Refugee Status...
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Mood: Now Here, Nowhere...
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John,
I disagree with your view that since the origin of words (as is archaeology, history, and all other relevant sciences) is so immersed in politics, it
should be avoided. True we are all from diverse backrounds, but it is no excuse for avoiding intellegent conversation around the origin of musical
instrument terms and names.
Science can prove most of these assertions, oral histories also provide valuable information regarding these issues. For instance- we know the oud
was either originally built in ancient Egypt, or ancient Iraq (with technological sharing throughout the years). There is little to support
otherwise-
Unfortunately everyone from the region wants a stake at ancient history, so you'll see amatuer analysis from a sellers website claiming the oud was
"probably from Iran" just like the whole "the most prized of all ouds come from Turkey" and we know both statements are false. I've even seen crap
that claimed the Oud comes from the European Lute!
My point is (and sorry for the long post) these are important aspects of a musicians life and history- it is the reason there are ethnomusicology
departments in Universities. Just because someone lays claim falsely does not mean we here should avoid intellegent debate regarding the subject to
avoid hurting someones misguided sense of pride.
Tarik
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 645
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
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Mood: No Mood
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I understand John being cautious on the "ORIGINS" subject, but on the other hand I think that our "being from diverse backgrounds" means also that we
have more things to share.
a topic about percussion instruments and John thoughts about Language made me think of how those instruments names are used in popular expressions and
metaphors in the Middle East, It just popped out now: Derbakkeh (Lebanese name for darbouka), tabla, daff and tabl (Drum) are all used in a negative
context, they are used to qualify a bad person or a bad side of his personality:
- "He dances without Daff" (min gheir daff byerkos) is used to qualify someone who gets easily excited and angry with no good reasons.
- "He will end up like Darboukas" (akherto derbakket) means that someone will end up badly with no one to care for him.
- "Drummer in life, flutist after" (mtabbal bel denye mzammar bel akhra) is used to qualify an absolutely careless person
- "perforated drum" (tabl mafkhout) for someone speaking loudly and being a total idiot
- "Play your drum and I'll play my mizmar" (tabelly ta Zamerlak) is used to qualify 2 persons that agree with each other but they are both wrong.
Why percussionists and their instruments are so badly perceived in the old traditional expressions?
I don't recall popular expressions saying bad things about oud player even though percussions are the only musical instruments allowed in the islamic
tradition and not oud and nay or mizmar ?
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oudplayer
Oud Junkie
Posts: 849
Registered: 5-9-2004
Location: new jersey/ Israel
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Mood: ouds up
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hey john and rebetostar
This is a great thread . to find out what did mirriam play. i will put my 2 jewish cents on this atleast its soemhting i knwo or atleast i think i
know lol
If u look around the time she was playing her drum it says is a medresh {a old sorce} that when she was playing he drum it was as they were walking
through the the sea. so i would have tio say ti was more of a riqq then a darbukah or any kind of drum like that. bc she was dancing with the drum as
she is playing . bc of her she gave the jewish people the streghth so get out of egypt. so this is why i think its a riqq or flat drum like that
take it or leave it i ma not 100% sure but its a midrash which they say "if u dont belive in it yr a fool but if u belive in it then yr ignorinte"
its basicly saying take what u get out of it and not drop anythign
thx sammy
we are lost camels in the desert and wanna find our way to water and the water is in aden
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
Registered: 6-8-2005
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Doumbek came here from the Middle East. The term or variants of it is used in the region, for example dumbuk or dunbak in Iraq, dumbak in Oman, and
tombak in Iran. In Iran, where the word may have originated, tombak is said to come from the two basic sounds of the drum: the lower-pitched tom and
the higher-pitched bak.
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SamirCanada
Moderator
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I live in english Canada. I never heard it refered to as Dumbek. The instrument probably came to canada with lebanese immigrants and for all the
occations I have heard people speak about the instrument it was refered to as derbakkeh wich is the lebanese name for it. It probably has to do with
the fact that the largest arab comunity in canada comes from Lebanon.
When I hear it as tabla it comes from people of egyptian decent.
As far as native canadians go, They may call it dumbek if they were aquainted with the instrument trough one of those drum circles or "ethnic music"
fringe type of store
What part of Canada do you live in?
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al-Halabi
Oud Junkie
Posts: 364
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Alami,
You make a good point about the low status associated with percussionists. To call musicians tabbalin and zammarin is to denigrate them. In early
records it was common to have the members of the takht listed on the label except the percussionists. It’s as if they were not important enough to
deserve acknowledgment as artists.
With other types of musicians and instruments there is a kind of hierarchy of status ranging from the lowest level performers (like outdoor musicians)
at the bottom all the way up to professional musicians who are considered genuine artists (like celebrities, members of radio orchestras, graduates of
conservatories, and performers of Western music). For example, the lowly singer (mghanni) is looked down on in contrast with the professional artist
(who is called by complimentary terms such as fannan and musiqar). One of the popular sayings: ‘Imrak ma tqul lil-mghanni ghanni (never ask a lowly
singer to sing). Western instruments enjoy prestige as symbols of sophisticated music. There is a saying: hmar bi-diqq byanu? (do you expect a jackass
to play the piano?)
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
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Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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Hi Tarik,
I didn't say we should never discuss the geographic origins of the oud (for example), just that I recommend caution.
I have had HUGE angry arguments with people and nearly lost friends over what I considered to be simple straightforward, factual statements. One
Palestinian friend (a well-educated actress and comedianne) called me the next day after a conversation to tell me how angry she was that I said the
Pharaonic Egypt was an Arab country.
You never know when you might offend someone!
Peace,
Udi John
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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YIKES!!!
BAD TYPO in my previous post: I had stated to my Palestinian friend that Pharaonic Egypt was NOT an Arab country.
Sorry,
Udi John
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rebetostar
Oud Maniac
Posts: 96
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Location: the East shore, BC
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Mood: Ajam Ushayran
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Misirli Ahmet - darbuka maestro
Heh,
Every culture seems to have it's drummer jokes..
How can you tell if the stage is level? The drummer is drooling out of both sides of his mouth..
Seriously tho.. there can be no doubt about the absolute mastery of this fellow. Check it:
Misirli Ahmet
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rebetostar
Oud Maniac
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Location: the East shore, BC
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doira master
Now check this:
ABBOS KOSIMOV
A doira is a type of frame drum found from Macedonia, through Iran all the way through Central Asia. The traditional technique used here is really,
really similar to the modern "split-finger" technique popularized on the darbuka by Misirli Ahmet.
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spyros mesogeia
Oud Junkie
Posts: 896
Registered: 9-10-2003
Location: WASHINGTON DC
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Mood: play my ouds
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 645
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
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Mood: No Mood
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Bringing to your attention the Wizoo - Darbuka, a sound engineer and arranger friend gave me some loops generated from this software (samples
attached).
Their info says:
Darbuka gives you the ability to use Arabic / Middle Eastern style percussion in a VST, AU or RTAS host. It provides you with quite a bit of editing
capability and customization to suit your specific needs. With the ability to mix and match parts, add effects and mix things together in an intuitive
environment, Darbuka definitly lives up to the Virtual Percussionist description given to it by it's creators.
http://www.audiomidi.com/aboutus/reviews/gill_darbuka.cfm
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
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Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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Q. What did the drummer get on his aptitude test?
A. Drool.
Musician One: I heard you performed with a big ensemble last night.
Musician Two: Yes--we had 7 musicians and a drummer.
But seriously, here is a video of Faisal Zedan accompanying oudist Afif Taian on the riqq. Faisal is a great percussionist and I really enjoy
performing with him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVssEYwDbNY
Peace,
Udi John
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excentrik
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 5-19-2004
Location: Refugee Status...
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Mood: Now Here, Nowhere...
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Hi John.
You didn't offend me. And I'm not sure what your point about the Palestinian friend of yours was. I've never met anyone stupid enough to call
Pharaonic Egypt Arab. Especially educated Palestinians, as we are extreemly proud of our indigenous heritage and the history our ancestors shared
with one of the most important civilizations ever to breath (Egypt).
I was only pointing out, for the benefit of spirited and educated debate, that I disagree with John's assertion for a number of reasons. EVERYTHING
IS SUBJECT TO POLITICS. Just being who I am ethnically is subject to some B.S.
I even feel I cannot fully express my view regarding this because of my origins (it is biased, right?).
I just feel John's criticism of Rebetostar's post was unfounded. He nailed the origin of Tabla as best as I've heard it in a non-academic way (that
is without all the snooty lingo). It is an Arabic Drum, and thats that.
Doumbek is another Hippy term neo-colonial "travelers" picked up in some "exotic" land. and thats that. the same people call a Mijwiz a Mizmar.
thanks,
tarik
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palestine48
Oud Junkie
Posts: 448
Registered: 6-9-2004
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Mood: Free Palestine
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Tarek,
A-Freaken-MEN,
its about time somebody said it, now wheres my Johnny Walker I need to toast to this one!
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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Hi Tarik,
My point about my Palestinian friend is that, if I can somehow deeply offend an educated Palestinian Christian from Ramallah by stating what I
consider to be a simple fact regarding ancient Egypt, then it's clearly possible to get people of different backgrounds pretty damn pissed off by
making <b>rooster</b>sure assertions about the origins of words for musical instruments.
At the other end of the spectrum, I seem to have lost a friend, a Laz from Turkey, over the issue of calling my band, "Za'atar: Music of the Jews of
Arab and Muslim Lands." One day, he sent me a pointed e-mail reply to an concert notice, "What lands would that be?" Turns out, he regards the Arab
presence in the Fertile Crescent and beyond as an "Occupation" and Arabs as "Occupiers." He was especially unhappy with the my reply, in which I
pointed out that, in all likelihood, the people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Morocco, etc. who today regard themselves as "Arabs" are
most likely at least partly descended from the various and indigenous (and non-indigenous) peoples who inhabited the area prior to the Muslim
Conquest.
Same issue, two completely different points of view.
As for your <b>rooster</b>sure statement about the origins of the word "doumbek," what is your evidence?
I am not against people "getting political" on this web page (see above), I simply ask that everyone recognize that this Forum is supposedly about the
OUD and is frequented by people of all kinds of backgrounds. I want everyone to feel welcome here, Palestinian, Israeli, or whatever. I am just
suggesting consideration of others feelings...
I was probably overreacting in my first posting because I felt that Rebetostar's criticism of those of us who "bashed" Amine2 was itself bit
unfair.
Peace,
Udi John
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rebetostar
Oud Maniac
Posts: 96
Registered: 1-31-2007
Location: the East shore, BC
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ajam Ushayran
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| Quote: | Originally posted by al-Halabi
Doumbek came here from the Middle East. The term or variants of it is used in the region, for example dumbuk or dunbak in Iraq, dumbak in Oman, and
tombak in Iran. In Iran, where the word may have originated, tombak is said to come from the two basic sounds of the drum: the lower-pitched tom and
the higher-pitched bak. |
Wikipedia says doumbek is an Armenian word, too.
I don't know how the word became so common here (Calgary) but it is the most common. Keep in mind there are only tiny handful of Middle Eastern
musicians here, so most of us "natives" (the real natives call us whiteys.. I prefer Xenoi) get our info. either from books, the internet, or
travelling. (neo-colonial?? heh. Next time I go to Istanbul I'm declaring it a protectorate of Calgary).
This forum is a treasure, and while criticism/critique is a good thing, if it descends to bashing, it's totally inappropriate. Any
drum-circle-fringe-etho-store-shopping hippies who arrive here are seeking knowlege about the oud and Middle-Eastern music. They should be encouraged.
I'm the first to leave the room when the djembe kids start drumming.. but imagine if they began to learn darbuka and oud properly.. then it might be
worth sticking around..
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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Hi Rebetostar,
Amine2 was being mean and insulting (especially in the way he tried to "correct" the Egyptian's poster's use of "tabla"), and, in my opinion, needed
to be put in his place a bit.
I really appreciate your defense of the positive aspects of hippies (my in-laws are the real deal). I just hope that Tarik and Rami appreciate the
fact that hippies are probably the most pro-Palestinian element of American society other than Arab-Americans.
Peace,
John
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ALAMI
Oud Junkie
Posts: 645
Registered: 12-14-2006
Location: Beirut
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Language and Politics are after all social facts, they are natively interconnected. The choice of a single word is sometimes a political statement.
There is no fairly educated arab to claim that pharaonic Egypt was an arab country but it is also true (and I hope our egyptian friends will agree)
that in schools it is not stated clearly, the "avoided" words are also a political position.
"Paradise now" ,a great palestinian movie nominated for the Oscars last year, faced a war to be pulled out of competition because it was presented as
being from "Palestine" and not the "the palestinian territories"
In Lebanon, we call it "Derbakkeh" (Samir is right), but the funny thing, in the city of Tripoli in Northern Lebanon (just 80 Km from Beirut), they
call it :"Drembakkeh" but all lebanese satellite TV presenters and even lebanese percussionists on TV call it now: "Tabla" as the target audience (22
arab countries) won't all understand the local name, how many time before the disappearance of the local name ?
(Let's hope that US wise neocon foreign policy will not impose "Dumbek" to everybody for the sake of stability in the region.)
Sorry for the long post, after all I think that we all agree that the name of the instrument of discord is an onomatopoeia, you can call it a Tac dom
if you like as long as you play it right.
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excentrik
Oud Junkie
Posts: 291
Registered: 5-19-2004
Location: Refugee Status...
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Mood: Now Here, Nowhere...
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Yo, Rebetostar- (by the way, welcome to the forums)
your dreaming- they will never learn it properly. "properly" doesn't exist in their framework.
Yes it would be nice to have a few thousand more trained Oud and Tabla players, but they don't see it that way- to them culture is fluid and no
ownership over culture can exist (very colonial, wouldn't you say). And that sentiment is shared by so many "Doumbek" people.
I've had many an argument with them regarding the fact that you can't just stick a drum between your legs and bang on it without any proper training,
its ridiculous- and I'd be OK with it if they sounded aight- but they dont! THEY SUCK! and they still refuse to learn. It's a "filling a culture
void" thing. I almost pitty them.
John,
Consideration of other's feelings is a must, but the fact that many an Israeli, Turkish, European, American point of view regarding the Arab world
(and I'm not trying to offend anyone, this is purely a matter of fact statement) is based solely in a non-indigenous, post-colonial (and present)
point of view.
Your Turkish friend is probably an extreem Nationalist. He would probably want to scream if you mentioned the Armenian Holocaust. And your
Palestinian Christian friend from Ramallah (Exactly my backround as well) is dumb as a bag of hammers. Absolutely NO Offense to you, you are right in
your arguments with them.
John, you are welcome here- as am I, and whomever wishes to be a part of this- but take time to think about some people who are aren't even welcome in
their own land. And subsequently have seen everything stolen from them- from the Music to the Falafel to the Farms they owned for thousands of years.
Perhaps thats why I am so defensive when confronted with "origin" dialogue.
Us Palestinians don't have much left. And I will take ownership over our Arab and indigenous heritage, political arguments aside.
Thanks bro-
tarik
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rebetostar
Oud Maniac
Posts: 96
Registered: 1-31-2007
Location: the East shore, BC
Member Is Offline
Mood: Ajam Ushayran
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Wizoo - Darbuka
Re: Wizoo - Darbuka
Totally awesome software!
Totally not compatible with Intel Macs 
Bummer.
Thanks for the warm welcome and enjoyable discussion, guys!
hmm..that makes me wonder.. any female oudistes in the house?
Maybe another thread.. women oud players?
Is it true that the pear-shaped ouds are for women?
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John Erlich
Oud Junkie
Posts: 1470
Registered: 8-26-2004
Location: California, USA
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud-Obsessed
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Hi Tarik,
My friend from Turkey is not a Turk, as I said, he's Laz. My gut feeling is that he empathizes with indigenous non-Arab minorities in the Arab world
because he is an indigenous non-Turkish minority in Turkey. (He is actually quite pro-Armenian, as far as I know, and not much of a Turkish
nationalist.)
I consider myself very pro-Palestinian, but the Palestinians are not the only ones in the NENA (Near East / North Africa) with legitimate complaints
to air. I would just hate to see this Forum turned into a political soapbox for everyone with legitimate complaints (there are plenty of other forums
for this) because it would lead to many people feeling unwelcome or just staying away because deafening chatter.
I work on the issue of Jews from Arab Lands as much as the Palestine issue (Pop Quiz: Which of these two groups has been more completely "ethnically
cleansed" from its historic homelands(s)?). I am actually grateful that none of the Israelis nor other Jews with roots in the Arab World have tried
to raise their issues on this Forum--it would create tension and generate heated political arguments and that's not what I want from this Forum.
Frankly, I've changed very few non-Arabs' views of Arabs with political arguments. I think I changed a lot of people's negative opinions of Arabs
with my music, which is all about disolving the conceived boundaries between Jews and Arabs.
Let your oud do the talking! Have faith...
Peace,
Udi John
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