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TheCuddlyDevil
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They all sound the same!
I've recently listened to Naseer Shammah and that has got me into Arabian music. So I tried expanding and downloaded some taqsims from mp3 section in
this site.
It's just that the taqsims sound the same to me! Most of them sound like slightly like shredding and I have time differentiating one from the
other.
I enjoy some taqsims (particularly an Iraqi Taksim by Jamil Bashir) but not most. (I notice about Jamil's piece is that there are alot of
motifs and not just scaling up and down on the fretboard)
Does anybody else have this problem?
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arsene
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Some maqams are quite unusual to the western ear and can be difficult to distinguish. In fact, the only maqams we as westerners can appreciate at
first are probably al-Ajam and an-Nahawand (resp. our major and minor scales, more or less).
Many maqams have notes we weouldn't even dream of (how do you sing the note between D and D#, for example??).
So it takes time to get used to...
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TheCuddlyDevil
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You might be more or less correct.
Personally, I love Sikah. Prefferably with the G#. Mainly because the first 3 notes sound kind of joyous but then the G# introduces a sorrowful
tone.
But I don't think it's at all about the maqams themselves, but rather the style of the taqsim. Most of the time it's a bit of shredding with very
little emphasis on any one note. So it doesn't sound very melodic (and maybe even hardly tonal).
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arsene
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Well, in that case, I think it's just like soloing on electric guitar. Personally, I love Mark Knopfler and Carlos Santana's solo styles, but that
hardly is shredding. While they don't have a poor technique, they're not as technically advanced as say, Steve Vai or Joe Satriani. A lot of shredding
nowadays misses (imo) emotion and feeling, something Knopfler and Santana DO have.
Maybe we can apply the same idea to taqsims - maybe a lot of oudists just want to show off.
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Brian Prunka
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Hey Devil,
I'd like some specific examples, since it's impossible to constructively discuss this in the abstract.
I will say that the language and structure of taqsim (irrespective of the scales) and maqam are very different from what westerners are used to. It
is most likely a matter of training your ears to follow the music. I say this because your comment 'they all sound the same' means that you are
unable to distinguish the differences which, I assure you, are there and probably quite obvious to people who have listened to this music for a long
time.
several of your other comments also indicate that you're not listening very closely:
Sikah's G#: Sikah does not have a G#, it has an Ab (actually Huzam)
Shredding (which I take to mean unstructured rapid scale-running) is not present in the majority of taqasim, which are usually slower, rubato, and
have a narrow range at any given point.
very little emphasis on any one note: this is exactly the opposite of most taqasim, which spend a great deal of time on a few notes.
hardly tonal: this is absurd, arabic music is extremely tonal. There's no way even to debate this.
by the way, 'Arabian' is deprecated in most usages. The preferred term is 'Arabic'.
Sorry if this sounds harsh, but you have to be a little more conscientious if you're going to say things like that.
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TheCuddlyDevil
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Isn't G# only a different name for Ab? And I said G# since I'm more used to referrin to sharps rather than flats.
"which are usually slower, rubato, and have a narrow range at any given point."
I wouldn't exactly define shredding as "random".
Most of the time taqsims do a lot of scale-running, though, as you said, have a narrower range than in rock (also it is played a bit slower) but that
doesn't stop it, at least for me, from taking away quite a bit from the melodic content.
"this is absurd..."
You are absolutely right. I made a mistake using that term. What I did mean was, at certain points of a taqsim, lack of melody.
This is, of course, an opinion. I don't assume I'm right, I'm just trying to see what others have to say about this. So thanks alot for replying. (I
was annoyed by the large number of views compared to the low number of replies)
"The preferred term is 'Arabic'."
Actually, "Arabic" is used for the language, and rarely to signify other aspects of the Arabs. "I speak Arabic", or "I enjoy Arabic literature". The
phrase "I am of Arabic origin" would not be appreciated, unless you were a word :p
I look forward to your reply.
P.S. I have not listened to alot of taqsims, this is mostly based off a few taqsims I downloaded out of the taqsim section on mike's site.
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SamirCanada
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Iam not a word but it is: Iam of Arab origin... not arabian origin.
Musical theory only helps so far to understand arabic music but to me you have to analyse further and listen to a lot of taqasim in a very focused way
to feel how the Jinns are applied within the modulation of a taqasim. thats probably why it is still mostly taught with the help of oral instructions
as the main source of information. The maqam system isnt just scales... there are disiered feelings and construction to the maqam that doesnt fit the
same way as basic scales.
Sigah will develop into Huzam and it will be a shift that you couldnt ignore or ''miss''. its a powerfull modulation in my opinion definately not
subtle.
I think it takes years of listening to arabic music, taqasims and music with tarab to understand what's going on. It takes a full imersion to get the
full picture. If your just starting to taste the delights of oriental music then it can carry you away. Be carefull... there is more then what meets
the eye and there is a need for a certain musical maturity to develop before you can make a jugement. Even for people that have listened to the music
for a long time the actual mechanics behind it need to be studied with care.
Brian is someone that has immersed himself in arabic music for a long time and more importantly he has done so following one of the most knowlegeable
authority on oud and arabic music today. Simon Shaheen. There is wisdom in his words take the time to really read over them.
This is just my opinion... for what its worth
I hope it was helpfull.
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TheCuddlyDevil
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I agree with you Samir, and I realize that Brian is much more knowledgable of this field than I. I have read the information in his site and it has
helped me much. I also agree that the ear is completely integral since the music may lead you to places you did now know about.
One more thing to Brian: the technicalities of the maqamat are overwhelming and difficult to grasp. I'm wondering if you could tell me which maqam to
start with for practicing composing?
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Brian Prunka
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Okay, you still haven't listed any specific taqasim to which you're referring.
I should have clarified that my comment about "Arabian" vs "Arabic" was specifically referring to music. If you google the term "arabian music" for
example, you get a bout 64,000 results, many of which prefer the term "arabic music". If you google "arabic music", you get 1,300,000+ results. Not
that this proves anything but it does give you an idea of actual usage.
It is not true that Arabic is not used as an adjective outside of referring to the language. When speaking of people, most often one would simply say
'Arab', most of the Arabs I know would not appreciate being referred to as 'Arabian' (with the possible exception of people who are actually from the
Arabian peninsula). I know a lot of Arab musicians and everyone, without exception, uses the term 'Arabic' when referring to music (or coffee, or
almost anything except horses and Saudi Arabia). In this case it's not so much a matter of one thing being more linguistically correct than another,
but simply respecting the preferences of the people concerned.
your points:
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"which are usually slower, rubato, and have a narrow range at any given point." I wouldn't exactly define shredding as "random".
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I never referred to shredding as being random.
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Most of the time taqsims do a lot of scale-running, though, as you said, have a narrower range than in rock (also it is played a bit slower) but that
doesn't stop it, at least for me, from taking away quite a bit from the melodic content.
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Your assertion that 'most of the time' taqasim do a lot of scale-running is unfounded--please give us some examples.
Also, perhaps you should consider that your concept of 'melodic content' may be inadequate. Realize also that taqasim do not exist in a vacuum, but
in the context of a long tradition of improvisation, which has its own logic and structure. A melodic idea which may not seem particularly meaningful
by itself can accrue significance for its role in the whole tradition of taqsim.
By the way, G# is not only a different name for Ab. 12-note instruments like piano and guitar use one note to represent both G# and Ab, but which is
in fact neither, for various reasons which are too involved to get into here. On a fretless instrument like the oud, they are quite different. I'll
save you the explanation, which involves a fair amount of music theory. If you're industrious, you can research it yourself. Learning to read music
would be a good start. You can also do a search on the forum for 'intonation', and then read 'Harmonic Experience' by W.A. Mathieu for in-depth
study.
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P.S. I have not listened to alot of taqsims
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I think that this is the primary issue. I'm sure you don't mean be offensive, but when you have made very little effort to learn about and understand
an art form, and then make a posting complaining that you don't get it in a way that implies that it is somehow the fault of the artists for not being
easier to understand rather than your fault for not making the effort to appreciate it--well, people are mostly not going to be endeared by that.
So in an effort to help you educate yourself, here are some recommended recordings to listen to:
Munir Bashir - any taqasim recordings
Riad al-Sounbati (transliteration varies) - taqasim
Simon Shaheen/Jihad Racy - 'taqasim'
Necati Celik - 'Yasemin'
I would suggest that transcribing or learning to play even one taqsim from any of these recordings would help you immeasurably in appreciating the art
of taqsim.
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Brian Prunka
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Hey Devil, our posts crossed in the cyber-ether.
I'm not any kind of expert, but I am very passionate about this music (and music in general) and I have given quite a lot of time and energy to
learning about it. Again, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, but I'm sure you can see how your comments might rub some people the wrong way.
As for the technicalities of the maqamat and which maqam to start with:
I'm as much of a student as anyone, so I'm still working on all this too. I'd suggest learning a number of classical pieces (samai's, bashrafs, and
muwashshahs, mainly) to get a feel for how maqamat work. Listen a lot, including singers.
there's a podcast by Sami Abu Shumays that goes through maqamat structure step-by-step, really breaking it down. I posted something in the forums
about it before, or search for it on the internet or on itunes.
maqamworld.com of course has a lot of great information. Dr. Scott Marcus's dissertation has quite a bit of information as well (though not everyone
would agree with all of his conclusions).
This music is one of the deepest living traditions that humanity has produced . . . if you pursue it, the rewards are considerable.
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Lintfree
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Yo Devil - I know what you're going through. I used to think and hear what you're hearing. That changes. I would say learn the phrasing and some good
and useful techniques and do them in major and minor scales and modes that you know, that you're used to hearing. These are maqams too. And in some
places the musicians only learn 6 maqams, but they really learn them. And you're right about some playing being boring because it can be very boring
and as musically unrewarding as a class at Guitar Institute of Technology with someone running scale after scale after scale as fast as humanly
possible. Music for me is not a demonstration of skill or complexity. I love George Van Epps and Les Paul but I'd rather listen to Django or John Lee
Hooker
or Jimmy Vaughn. Because there are, often, as the man said, "too many notes."
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arsene
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Devil,
In answer to your question "with which maqam to start (to practice composing)",
I'd say start with the Ajam and Nahawand maqamat, as these are probably the most familiar, easy to remember, and can be reproduced on nearly every
instrument, even a piano.
These are the maqamat I took on first, and so far, it works for me to get used to this kind of playing!
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SamirCanada
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what about the Jinns and the structure of the taqasim? you cant just start playing scales up and down and call it a taqasim!
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arsene
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No, that is completely true, but I was talking about getting used to playing the scales, and cuddly devil mentioned practising composing, so I wasn't
refering to taqasim!
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SamirCanada
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sorry arsene but the Maqam is not a scale....
it doesnt mather if your composing or playing a taqasim.
read this from maqamworld.com
The building blocks for maqamat are sets of 3, 4 or 5 notes, called trichords, tetrachords and pentachords, respectively. The Arabic word for these
sets is jins (plural ajnas). The word jins means the gender, type or nature of something. In general each maqam is made up two main ajnas (sets)
called lower and upper jins. These can be joined at the same note, at two adjacent notes, or can overlap each other. A maqam may also include other
secondary ajnas which are very useful for modulation. Instead of thinking of a maqam as a collection of 8 or more individual notes, it's often useful
to think of it as a group of two or more ajnas (sets)
What is the difference between a maqam and a scale ?
The Arabic maqam is built on top of the Arabic scale. The maqam is generally made up of one octave (8 notes), although sometimes the maqam scale
extends up to 2 octaves. But the maqam is much more than a scale:
A maqam may include microtonal variations such that tones, half tones and quarter tones in its underlying scale are not precisely that. E.g. the E in
maqam Bayati is tuned slightly lower than the E in maqam Rast. These variations must be learned by listening not by reading, which is why the oral
tradition is the correct way to learn Arabic music.
Each maqam has a different character which conveys a mood, in a similar fashion to the mood in a Major or Minor scale, although that mood is
subjective. Since classical Arabic music is mostly melodic (excludes harmony), the choice of maqam greatly affects the mood of the piece.
Each maqam includes rules that define its melodic development (or sayr in Arabic). These rules describe which notes should be emphasized, how often,
and in what order. This means that two maqamat that have the same tonal intervals but where one is a transposed version of the other may be played
differently (e.g. maqamat Kurd and Hijaz Kar Kurd, or maqamat Nahawand and Farahfaza).
Each maqam includes rules that define the starting note (tonic, or qarar in Arabic), the ending note (or mustaqarr in Arabic), which in some cases is
different to the tonic, and the dominant note (or ghammaz in Arabic). The dominant is the starting note of the second jins (in general the 5th, but
sometimes the 4th or 3rd note), and serves as the pivot note during modulation
Listen to the example here at the bottom of the page. It will break down a famous taqasim by a old school master Ryadh al-Sumbati.
http://www.maqamworld.com/modulation.html
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by arsene
No, that is completely true, but I was talking about getting used to playing the scales, and cuddly devil mentioned practising composing, so I wasn't
refering to taqasim! |
At least for Turkish music there shouldn't be much of a distinction between composing and playing taksim when you get to talking about a makam. I
don't think it's any different for Arabic Maqamat.
you can "play the scale of Beyati" or you can "play the scale of Ussak" and in the end you are playing the exact same notes, nothing to do the makams
in question. What's missing? The characters of each makam, direction, melodic cliches (hmmm can't find a better word, licks?), etc...
similarly, you could "compose using the scale of Beyati", ditto with Ussak but are you really showing either one of the makams? er, i don't know.
In my opinion Rast is the best maqam/makam to begin studying. besides being an incredibly popular makam having tons of repertoire and taksims played
by every master and his or her grandmother, its basic scale is similar to the Western major scale yet does use microtones. so right away you are
throwing yourself into that world. plus it is related to many other makams for modulating, segah, huzzam, mahur, ussak, hicaz, nihavend, nikriz and is
a nice step toward getting into those.
Arsene, the fact that maqam Ajam and the white keys on a piano are similar is best to be thought of as a coincidence. When you start talking about
Turkish Acem, that whole theory gets blown out the window. check it out sometime.
adam
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arsene
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Well, what can I say guys, a great man admits when he's wrong!
I've printed nearly every page on maqamworld.com, so I'll get busy with it this summer (yeah!)
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SamirCanada
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its not a bad wrong arsene its a omg! revelation
enjoy your studies and dont get too lost.
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arsene
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| Quote: | Originally posted by arsene
Well, what can I say guys, a great man admits when he's wrong!
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It was very tempting to do the Chevy Chase joke here: "... and I'm not a great man". 
Thanks Samir, whenever I feel I'm getting lost, I'll just stop by Mike's Oud forums... 
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MatthewW
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TheCuddlyDevil
I've recently listened to Naseer Shammah and that has got me into Arabian music. So I tried expanding and downloaded some taqsims from mp3 section in
this site.
It's just that the taqsims sound the same to me! Most of them sound like slightly like shredding and I have time differentiating one from the
other.
Does anybody else have this problem? |
dunno mate, it's a bit like saying all rock music sounds the same, or all classical music sounds the same, or all jazz sounds the same, or all chicago
blues sounds the same....maybe on the surface it might all sound the same, but underneath there are levels and subtle (or not so subtle if you are
into shredding) differences in each song, structure, maqam, tasqim, etc . just listen closely with the inner ear! 
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by arsene
I've printed nearly every page on maqamworld.com, so I'll get busy with it this summer (yeah!) |
Really nice summer project! If you haven't already, be sure to check out Sami's podcasts...best thing of all is to hear this stuff and even better for
someone to break down the maqams for you.
hopefully this link comes through...
http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=20...
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Masel
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| Quote: | Originally posted by adamgood
At least for Turkish music there shouldn't be much of a distinction between composing and playing taksim when you get to talking about a makam. I
don't think it's any different for Arabic Maqamat.
you can "play the scale of Beyati" or you can "play the scale of Ussak" and in the end you are playing the exact same notes, nothing to do the makams
in question. What's missing? The characters of each makam, direction, melodic cliches (hmmm can't find a better word, licks?), etc...
similarly, you could "compose using the scale of Beyati", ditto with Ussak but are you really showing either one of the makams? er, i don't know.
Arsene, the fact that maqam Ajam and the white keys on a piano are similar is best to be thought of as a coincidence. When you start talking about
Turkish Acem, that whole theory gets blown out the window. check it out sometime.
adam |
I don't know that much about turkish music. Could you explain what you said please? I'm talking about your comment on composing/playing a taqasim, and
what you said about ajam, ussak (there is an ushaq in arabic music but I've never ran into it yet).
We've discussed the difference in ornamentation between turkish and arabic music (though not fully, perhaps it's time to bring that thread back, if
anyone is interested?...), maybe it's high time we discussed the differences in composing and playing a taqsim.
I've seen older threads saying that the arabs don't pay attention to the sayr but that's only the modern, younger players (who I think are influenced
by the turks and try to imitate their speed), I'd give my opinion on these subjects but I need to go to work, I'll continue this some other time.
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TheCuddlyDevil
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I appreciate all the replies.
Brian: I actually know some music theory. Mostly Western, though. I will, however, need to research Ab and G# (I think it may have something with key
signatures)
Oh, and I'm Saudi.
In regards to Ajam referring to the white nots on a piano, I don't believe that's a coincedince. Since Ajam in Arabic means "Non-Arabic", so it may
have been that the Ajam maqam was imported into Arabic music from the West.
Oh, and I've read about all of maqamworld, by the way, a long time ago.
Thanks for all the replies, though.
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by TheCuddlyDevil
In regards to Ajam referring to the white nots on a piano, I don't believe that's a coincedince. Since Ajam in Arabic means "Non-Arabic", so it may
have been that the Ajam maqam was imported into Arabic music from the West.
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Acem or Ajam typically and more specifically (and derogatorily) refers to "Persian"
Anyone on the board know about Persian Dastgah scale systems? is there a scale in Persian music, new or old, called "Ajam"?
and here's another question for the Arabic music experts since I don't know anything about it, when did Ajam come into the music? and How? We know
that many makams and terms came into the Arabic music from Turkish music, and, vise versa I would assume (although I don't know anything about that).
And of course many Turkish makams and terms came into the music via Persian music.
So I don't know where the term Acem or Ajam as a musical term comes from, whether it's Persian, Arabic or Turkish but here's what I do know:
In Turkish music, Acem is a bit different than Arabic Ajam and is not a very common makam. It's a descending makam, (is Ajam?) starts like Ajam (and
from the note Acem) but ends something like Beyati or Uşşak (ends in the same place as those makams, on the pitch Dügah).
To make the makam Acem Aşiran which is a much much more common makam in Turkish music (as is Acem Kürdi) the makam begins again and finishes
like Acem with the uşşak ending on dügah which then changes to kürdi. then that follows down to karar on the pitch Acem Aşiran which
is one octave below the pitch Acem.
And of course there's so much more to the story about Acem Aşiran but that's the rough idea.
So actually on paper the basic scale of Ajam looks more like Acem Aşiran than it does Acem.
Again very roughly, Acem Kürdi begins like Acem, with the uşşak and all and then ends like Kürdi.
What does Arabic Ajam do?
Here's a list of pieces in makam Acem Aşiran:
http://www.adamgood.com/turkish_nota/rep.php?makam=2&sort=form_...
notice that Gazi Giray Han (1554-1607) apparently wrote a Peşrev. and note his birth year and death years. I'd have a hard time believing they
were concerning themselves with scales that sounded like western major scales, you know what I mean? That's more an assumption than anything.
So i don't mean to go about proving anything, just putting out ideas...I'm really curious!
adam
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adamgood
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Masel
I don't know that much about turkish music. Could you explain what you said please? I'm talking about your comment on composing/playing a taqasim,
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Well, the point is that the seyir is going to be the same, whether you're playing taksim or composing a piece.
In a composed piece of Uşşak, Beyati, Rast or Ferahfeza for example, from Hane 1 to the end of the teslim you will be shown the makam. Then
rest of the hanes are like Meyan or a time to modulate and show what you can do as a composer.
in a taksim of any of those makams, from the first note until the first karar, that is equal to Hane 1 plus the teslim. And then if you would like to
modulate, you can play Meyan and again, show what you can do as a taksimer 
and in taksim hopefully you are creating melodies that are characteristic of the makam.
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