Masel
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Difference between arabic and turkish qanun?
Hey, I've been itching to learn the qanun for a while and I am going to go for it. I will probably go for arabic qanun, but I wanted to ask what the
difference in tuning is. Is it tuned one tone up like in the oud? The sound is higher of course..
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MatthewW
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Hey Masel- the quanun is an amazing instrument! There are some slight differences between the Arabic and Turkish versions, but I'm not sure if it has
to do with the actual tuning. You could try asking Haluk, he deals with them and ought to be able to help=
http://www.eraydinsazevi.com.tr/contact.htm
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SamirCanada
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Here is the info i got when I was researching the same thing.
arabic kanun has 5 membranes.
Turkish has 4.
Arabic kanun should sound sweet and mellow.
Turkish kanun should be more punchy.
turkish kanun has more ''mendals'' or levers. something like 7
Arabic kanun has 3 or 4.
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adamgood
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If you want to play Arabic music then an Arabic qanun is perfect.
Likewise for Turkish, if you want to play Turkish classical style then you really must have the Turkish mandal system, the pitches won't exist on an
Arabic instrument.
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AGAPANTHOS
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Hello dear friends,
I have in my immediate plans aproject to build this winter my first, 26 strings qanun, based rather on the Turkish know -how and tradition. That's
why i've started to study in depth and in detail certain very crucial technical aspects of this magic instrument, from a point of view of construction
and organology. My study is not yet a conclusive one.My attention is very seriously focused on the mandal system for the very simple reason that this
is the heart of the instrument. Although i am not a specialist i will give you my opinion on this matter because i am very much interested in.
-The Turkish instrument is based on the musical , makam and interval system founded and described by the very famous Turkish musicologist Rauf Yecta
Bey(9th comma system-two octaves- 48 different intervals e.t.c.)
The Arab Instrument is based on a less complicated musical system with less distinctive intervals.
-This fact have an evident result on the system of mandals of each version of qanun. The Turkish is much more compicated while the Arabic is
simple
-There are three or four different sizes of quanuns in the Arabic world while the Turkish has a standard size-with secondary differencies concering
mostly the musical extention of the instrument (from 24 to 27 strings).
-There are other secondary differencies which are relative and analogue to the size of the instrument, for example the dimensions of the instrument,
the dimensions of the skin drum , the thickness of the soundbox e.t.c.
These are the main differencies as far as concern the construction and the organology of the instrument.
The real and the great differencies are refered to the different schools of playing the instrument , the different techniques existed, the style and
most of all the musical repertoire.
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SamirCanada
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Most of the really good arab Qanun players I have seen used there left fingernail or thumb instead of the mandals to create different tones.
I think its the technique that was used before the invention of the mandals.
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Masel
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So on an arabic qanun the note segah in bayat and in rast will sound the same while a turkish kanun will have a different mandal for each? I think I
like the sound of the arabic qanun better, but as far as repertuar it's both so I want to be flexible. Don't know...
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Brian Prunka
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Samir is correct, you don't need the mandals to play the correct pitches. Traditionally, you tuned the instrument to a maqam and used the left hand
to achieve any necessary modulations. this worked since one would mostly play in the same maqam family for an entire evening's performance. The
mandals help switch maqam without retuning the instrument, but good players use still use their left hand to get the more subtle pitches.
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adamgood
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wow I didn't know that that was still common practice these days to use your left hand to make some of the pitches, I knew that long long ago in a
distant galaxy they did it exclusively and there are some recordings of Kanuni Haci Arif Bey that are astounding to prove it.
I think the technique is pretty died out among Turkish kanunis.
are there any videos where we can see this?
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SamirCanada
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This is a sample from my Friend Nizar Tabcharani in Montreal
he plays Qanun in his group http://www.backstrings.com
Listen to this Qanun Taqasim. and the wonderfull peice after.
http://www.backstrings.com/Audio/BayatiAna.mp3
18 seconds and 52 seconds in the peice.
listen for him using the technique
sounds almost like little staccatos...
I cant think right now of a video that would show that.
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AGAPANTHOS
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Good day to all of you,
I am going this time to mention certain additional information for the sake of a better clarification of my initial writings concerning the
differencies between the Arabic and the Turkish qanun.
At first place i am obliged to make a correction as far as concern the different musical intervals of the two octave system of the tambur according to
the famous and higly respected Turkish musicologist Rauf Yecta Bey (RAUF YEKTA BEY ¨ La Musique Turque¨ Encyclopedie de la Musique et Dictionnaire
du Concervatoire, Librairie Delongrave, Paris 1921, pp.2945-3064), which is according to my opinion the theoretical foundation of the mandal system of
the Turkish qanun of today.For the accuracy of the argument the different musical intervals are 49 and not 48 as it was mentioned in my yesterday
post.I am really sorry for this fault.
Secondly SamirCanada is absolutely right for the information he gave to us on his Tuesday 16Oct2007 post about the use of the left hand fingernail or
thumb in the place of the mandals in the Arabic qanun. By the chance, i want to give you a little more information concerning this topic.According to
an interpretation adopted by many musicians and musicologists the invention and the application of the mechanical mandals on the quanun is very
recent. They say that around the end of the 19th century (around the 1880-90), in Istanbul, a Turkish qanun virtuoso named Ama Ali Bey was the first
who tried to applicate a certain number of mandals (several decades)on the instrument.The same sources claim that several decades later a Greek
virtuoso named Nikos Stefanidis from Kapadokia(continental Turkey)who was also a very good jeweler -maker extended this application. They say that he
was arrived to use 160 mandals.The mandals inTurkish qanuns today are around 250 (all Do(sol) strings have 12 mandals underneath).
Thirdly, i can asure you that not only the Arab qanun players use the nail of the lefthand thumb to replace the mandals but and many Turkish virtuoso
use it too (H. Karaduman and G. Baktagir), in making clisanto or other techniques
Additionaly, as far as concern the Turkish qanun and the the practice followed by the Turkish makers the musical extention of the qanun scale is made
unilateraly. The addition of the strings , from the 24th to 27th is made in the low-bass and not in the high -treble area (26th string- RE(La), the
27th-DO (Sol).
Finnaly the qanun is tuned everywhere diatonicaly so the different pitch from one to another is of minor importance.Its a question that has meanining
in the orchestra or between the orchestra and the singers.
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SamirCanada
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thanks for the Info...
Would you like to Share your plans for the making of the Qanun.
Iam interested to know the dimentions and process behind making it.
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Masel
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Then does anyone here play qanun? How hard is it to learn? I am also learning violin now, are the two instruments too much to learn at once do you
think? I am willing to give the oud a rest in order to focus on these two instruments. I'm still debating about whether to go turkish or arabic qanun
but I guess it's just up to me.
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maran
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i started playing around with kanun about a year ago and now i play it more than oud, and i think things will stay that way. i think it's just more
my instrument. if you're starting from complete scratch i would say yes it takes a lot of practice to start playing the way you would like to sound.
for example in the beginning you'll probably be playing with your two hands close together, but of course if you watch a kanun player the hands are
usually as far apart as possible (that gives you the best tone and also makes it easier to change the mandals). in my case it took a while to get my
hands away from eachother. i've found that with kanun you also have to be more perfect since mistakes are more obvious. but assuming you already
have some knowledge of the makams and know what you want to play and how it should sound (immersing yourself in recordings by the masters will take
care of this), the hardest part about kanun is the mandals, because it requires you be constantly thinking ahead (to whatever makam change is
approaching) and back (to remember where you most recently set the mandals to). this is what makes kanun different from most instruments and you
don't appreciate it until you actually try it (come to think of it, how does santur work?). playing chromatics all of a sudden becomes really
difficult. it's not so bad when you are playing a folk song which doesn't modulate, but once you get to semais and pesrevs it's a completely new
proposition because if you haven't noticed they usually have a lot of makam changes. then you really appreciate the really good players. but what i
really like about the kanun is how much better you learn the makams since if you have a turkish kanun like i do with the full set of mandals then it
really forces you to learn the correct pitch of each note in the makam, which is something you can get away with not knowing a lot of the time with ud
(at least if you're a very mediocre ud player like i am!). this is where having a good teacher comes in, which fortunately i do.
as far as learning two instruments at once it can be beneficial, what i described above is an example. however at the same time each instrument has
it's own stylistic conventions and i sometimes find myself making the mistake of trying to replicate one instrument's stylistic convention on the
other instead of thinking about what is appropriate for the instrument i am playing. there are certain things an ud can do that a kanun and violin
can't and vice versa. it's good to think about what those things are.
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Masel
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Thanks alot maran, I know the mandals are going to be the toughest thing to get my head (and hands) around, but I am so drawn to the sound of this
instrument, I know it will work out. Would you say that after a year you can play well?
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maran
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i would not say that i play any instrument "well" but the point is that i get an tremendous amount of enjoyment out of playing the instrument and i'm
sure you will also. there is a point where you start to improve rapidly (i'm not sure i'm there yet, but i definitely have improved a lot from when i
started) and then you will find it hard to put the instrument down. the nice thing about it is that while on ud certain makams are difficult to play
(i find kurdilihicazkar difficult for example) on kanun they are all equally difficult/easy to play, though of course you have the mandals to worry
about. in the end though if you have enough desire to play something it works itself out in the end.
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