shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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Who Made This Oud (continued), or How To Copy a Manol
Hi Folks:
This is a cut and paste from Faruk Turunz's website entitled "How To Copy a Manol". I REST MY CASE 
"To copy a musical instrument, the copier has to have a clear idea about the original constructor's philosophy. Manol no doubt is considered as the
best oud maker has ever lived, even though no one has got any idea about his method and philos....
To copy a musical instrument, the copier has to have a clear idea about the original constructor's philosophy. Manol no doubt is considered as the
best oud maker has ever lived, even though no one has got any idea about his method and philosophy.
His way of organizing the soundboards could be understood only by the help of a theoretical approach dealing with the acoustical features of the
soundboard of a braced wooden instrument. This is what I have spent 20 years of my life to research. I have found out a calculation method and
developed a very precise technique to adjust the brace tunings. I apply this calculations and tunings to all of my grade A ouds. Meanwhile, I had a
great opportunity to check out the specific frequencies of the braces of an original Manol oud (The 1901 Manol). Having measured the frequencies and
putting them in the formula that I use for my calculations; I could hardly believe in the results. The brace frequencies were very close numerically
what they ought to be to make the instrument resonate harmonically.
Already his way of processing the beams (braces) had driven me in to a very big astonishment and curiosity when I fist saw them. There were no traces
of any scrapers or any other plane like blade's roughly cutting at the sides. The sides of the brace beams were quite smooth and no doubt he must have
processed them before gluing to the face. WHY??? This is the most time consuming way of bracing!
The only logical answer to this astonishing question may be this: Manol was dealing with the brace frequencies. He knew what frequencies made which
effects on the sound. He was adjusting the brace frequencies by changing their shapes and intersections (profiles and heights) and then he was gluing
them on the soundboard.
I tried to make a very short summary of my overall thoughts on the issue of copying a Manol. But which original and individual one am I going to copy?
Or is this so important?
As far as we know Manol has used several different molds and he always experimented different brace models and types (refer to different
frequencies); The best way to follow is this in my opinion: To use a very fidel mold and to aim a very clear gentle Manol sound. "
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katakofka
Oud Junkie
Posts: 811
Registered: 1-24-2008
Location: Cleveland
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Mood: Gypsy
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Shareen
To make a long story short, we must respect the wish of Mr Faruk. He doesn't like anyone copying his work. I presume that Manol during his life time
would have similar wish. Mr Faruk has the right to legally pursue anyone copying his work.
Manol is dead as well as Stradivarius as well as etc...if someone is copying their work this is because they are dead and didn't leave the secret
behind their good instruments. So it's a matter of how to seek for good instruments by looking for the secrets behind their good instruments.
The question is : why copying a Turunz Oud if he doesn't want to and why looking for the secret behind his good instrument if he has the right to
pursue anyone trying to copy his ideas?
This entire saga belongs to intellectual properties that we should respect and Mr Faruk has the right to legally peruse anyone trying to copy his
work. You cannot compare between a living person and a dead person (like Manol) especially if the latter didn't protect his work by a patent and
copyright.
Regards
Souheil
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Melbourne
Oud Junkie
Posts: 354
Registered: 10-9-2006
Location: Mlebourne, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: راحة الأرواح
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You copy a Manol or a Stradivari - not because the makers are dead and cannot do anything about it...but becuase people are fascinated by the
mysteries and beauty of such instruments...whether it be the sound, wood, varnish experiments etc...
But those who copy a Turunz oud or Fadel or the like, they're not inerested in sound or uniqueness etc...they just think Turunz = expensive saught
after oud, so copy it and cash in. It might sound and look good in the end, but the intention of copying is not scientific or artistic...
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dubai244
Oud Junkie
Posts: 490
Registered: 3-8-2004
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Guys,
Shareen doesn't differenciat between science and copy for money ... !!!
It is like some body learning words without knowing what they mean ....!! 
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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We introduce in this thread the purpose about copy and counterfeit ( piracy ). Now information runs very fast. Mr A.... shows the new oud model he
produce and a few weeks later Mr B.... shows a copy, better and cheaper of course.....
On the other side, some luthiers search to keep the great ( dead ) makers art, and often add their own touch in their work. Here the copy is not a
counterfeit, rather a memory art and a homage....
I don't know if it is possible ( and if it worths ) to protect art work....Each one builts his (her) own thruth and we can't agree with all.
Disrespect is easy and encourages all around us , most of people respect money at first ......the result is clear!
(Sorry for my poor english, I tried to give parts of my opinion ........)
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dubai244
Oud Junkie
Posts: 490
Registered: 3-8-2004
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Guys,
If some body wrote a beautiful poetry, Do i have the right to copy the poetry and claimed is min?
If some body wrote a book , do i have the right to copy this book and claimed in min?
Do i have the right to draw "Monalisa", and claimed is min?
In the other hand, If i made a science discovery and work hard for years till i got this discovery, then do i have the right to claim is my discovery?
i guess in this case the answer will be YES. It will be very cheap action from some people from claim to steal this discovery and claimed it's
there's.
Chinese try to copy Japanese products, is this make chinese product is the best?
Some people steal some valuable peices from pyramids, Is that make them that they are the owner of this history?
If you dont understand this, you should go to school and learn about "copy right" and "Art".
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Jassim
Oud Junkie
Posts: 212
Registered: 12-29-2007
Location: Kuwait
Member Is Offline
Mood: Oud Player
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francis
Oud Junkie
Posts: 428
Registered: 4-8-2008
Location: Saintes , France
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Not sure I have been correctly understood ( or I have correctly write! ):
When I say:".....shows a copy, better and cheaper of course" I mean :" shows a counterfeit ( counterfact? ), better and cheaper he says......".
I wouldn't like you understand the inverse I think !!!
And I add that Mr Turunz reaction is comprehensible: it has sense because in this case someone tries to imitate his art without his consent and not
for a personal use only....
But , even I don't agree with these people who copy others art, I can't forbid this....
We have to remember that's talent is copied , imitate or counterfacted......rarely mediocrity...
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dubai244
Oud Junkie
Posts: 490
Registered: 3-8-2004
Location: Dubai, UAE
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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Hi Francis,
What i wrote above is not for you. It is a reply for shareen who can not understand whats mean by art and the copy right.
Thanks
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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For heaven's sake ALL Abu Alla copied was the pick guard and the rosette most likely, at the request of the client!!! I am am sure that under
commission, if a client comes to any of our great builders and says he or she wants a particular design for the risha guard or rosette, the builder
will build it. He did NOT copy the rest of the oud. He has his own bracing and design which he discovered himself after years of analysing the great
oud makers like Nahat and Manol, which, with all due respect, Mr. Turunz did as well. My point was only to say that to quote the great King Solomon
"there is nothing new under the sun". All knowledge is out there in the universe already, just waiting to be discovered. No disrespect to anyone
here at all, including to me. OK  I think it's really unfair to dis
someone, without his knowledge or opportunity to answer. Abu Alla does not have e-mail and does not speak English, yet there are 3 pages on this
forum disrespecting him. C'mon already.
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Josh
Oud Addict
Posts: 32
Registered: 10-7-2008
Location: UK
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood
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with respect, the disrespect has come because of Akrams first post where he asks 'who made this oud' when he knew all along who made it! Akram has
been online yet has not posted an explanation for this yet what are his motives? why did he post pictures of this oud asking who made it when he
already knew who made it? I find that very odd and not very honourable
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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You have understood nothing from my short assay
| Quote: | Originally posted by shareen
"To copy a musical instrument, the copier has to have a clear idea about the original constructor's philosophy.
I am not talking about the grace or honour of the copying act but trying to lay out the basic elements of the art of musical instrument constructing
(Luthiery) Non of my words can be interpreted as a proof of my affirmation for any copying commitment. Copying the visible features or appearance of
any work has not been argued in my assay.
....even though no one has got any idea about his method and philosophy.
I am trying to approach his method and phylosophy...
This is what I have spent 20 years of my life to research. I have found out a calculation method and developed a very precise technique to adjust
the brace tunings.
At that time I wrote this assay it had passed 20 years after I started constructing the ouds.
Meanwhile, I had a great opportunity to check out the specific frequencies of the braces of an original Manol oud (The 1901 Manol). Having
measured the frequencies and putting them in the formula that I use for my calculations; I could hardly believe in the results. The brace frequencies
were very close numerically what they ought to be to make the instrument resonate harmonically.
I systematized my method in 1993 and had completed formulating my original "BRACE TUNING METHOD" for long when I was ordered to fix that old Manol Oud
and had the chance to make above mentioned brace frequencies test (in 2007).
If you were a sophisticated person for this kind of arguments, no doubt you would accuse me for trying to defend my method by leaning my theory on
Manol's phylosophy or socalled "method". But you prefer to see it as a proof of my "copying". Indeed if you were such a person (sophisticated) you
would not jump and interfer such a debate and would not involve in defending any "copying".
I tried to make a very short summary of my overall thoughts on the issue of copying a Manol. But which original and individual one am I going to
copy? Or is this so important?
I am sying that I DON'T aim to copy any original and individual one and it is not important!!! It is not worth to copy any instrument maker's work.
If we understand the real phylosophy of instrument making art we NEVER NEED TO COPY ANY ONE ELSE'S WORK. We have gained a self respect and this
"respect" prevents us from committing a "sin!"
To use a very fidel mold and to aim a very clear gentle Manol sound. "
COPYING THE SOUND!!! It needs wizardy!!!!!!!!!
Why don't you cry out : "COP THE WITCH AND BURN HIM!!!!!! |
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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"I am sying that I DON'T aim to copy any original and individual one and it is not important!!! It is not worth to copy any instrument maker's work.
If we understand the real phylosophy of instrument making art we NEVER NEED TO COPY ANY ONE ELSE'S WORK. We have gained a self respect and this
"respect" prevents us from committing a "sin!"
Sir, that is the point. Mr. Abu Ala did not NEED to copy your beautiful work either!
Peace
Shareen
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farukturunz
Oud Junkie
Posts: 569
Registered: 8-16-2005
Location: Istanbul, Turkey
Member Is Offline
Mood: hopeful
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One had better think quite well before ivolving in such a debate.
Showing white flag at the end is in vain!!!
| Quote: |
Sir, that is the point. Mr. Abu Ala did not NEED to copy your beautiful work either!
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It is appearent!!! Mr. Abu Alaa did not need to copy my beautiful work either. Just some one else needed to show us how ingenious (!) Mr. Abu Alaa
is. He himself must not be in need of betraying how his work is a botch!!!
(of course if he is aware of how a beautifully made oud looks)
Still it is HIS choice )
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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Sir, I certainly would like to own one of your beautiful works of art. How do I go about ordering one from you?
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Greg
Administrator
Posts: 928
Registered: 7-22-2004
Location: Brisbane, Australia
Member Is Offline
Mood: Serene
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Shareen, since Akram first introduced the subject of an oud which was clearly decorated to look as though it was made by Master Faruk, there have been
many posts on the subject and it is very obvious that Master Faruk Türünz is angered and offended by the breach of propriety that has taken
place.
It is not for you, or anyone else to judge whether or not he has a right to be angered or offended. He is and he has explained very clearly why he is.
If Mr Türünz wants advice on how he should act or react, I feel sure he will ask for it. In the absence of such a request, I believe it is highly
presumptuous of you to offer an opinion on the merit of his reaction.
You posted several comments on the original thread and you have now started two separate threads which can serve no other purpose than to prolong the
issue.
Most of the members of these forums are aware that Faruk Türünz is amongst the finest oud makers of all time. He didn't get to that status by being
half-hearted about the way he does things. He is a fine man and a fine artist, but above all, he is a man of great passion.
Please do not insult him further by continuing to raise this subject under a variety of different guises.
Greg Marsh
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shareen
Oud Junkie
Posts: 218
Registered: 8-28-2007
Location: Upstate New York
Member Is Offline
Mood: Dreaming
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If you are referring to my last post, I was quite serious and not meant in any way shape or form to be sarcastic. I know the quality of Master
Faruk's work, I assure you. This is the danger of e-mail and posts. Some of the posters are writing in English which is not their first language.
When writing e-mails the intention is lost when one doesn't see the person face to face, hear the sound of the voice, etc. This was only meant as an
open discussion. I only responded at first, when I felt that someone who I have meant and bought an oud from was wrongly insulted by people on this
forum. At least, it appeared as an insult. Thats all.
| Quote: | Originally posted by Greg
Shareen, since Akram first introduced the subject of an oud which was clearly decorated to look as though it was made by Master Faruk, there have been
many posts on the subject and it is very obvious that Master Faruk Türünz is angered and offended by the breach of propriety that has taken
place.
It is not for you, or anyone else to judge whether or not he has a right to be angered or offended. He is and he has explained very clearly why he is.
If Mr Türünz wants advice on how he should act or react, I feel sure he will ask for it. In the absence of such a request, I believe it is highly
presumptuous of you to offer an opinion on the merit of his reaction.
You posted several comments on the original thread and you have now started two separate threads which can serve no other purpose than to prolong the
issue.
Most of the members of these forums are aware that Faruk Türünz is amongst the finest oud makers of all time. He didn't get to that status by being
half-hearted about the way he does things. He is a fine man and a fine artist, but above all, he is a man of great passion.
Please do not insult him further by continuing to raise this subject under a variety of different guises.
Greg Marsh |
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