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Alioud
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The first lattice braced oud in the world?
Hi,
So, here is the story. I have been studying the lattice bracing system of Smallman (The guitar maker) for some time. I was indeed intrigued by the
system and the theoretical outcome on paper. So, I decided to give it a go.
I have a Maurice Shehata oud which I don't like despite the very high price. The soundbox is made of ebony. Since I am not really a fan of Egyptian
made ouds anyway (sorry), I decided to start a the lattice braced oud project.
I started with an excellent master grade western red cedar soundboard with a mositure content of around 5 to 6%. I also decided to change to a
floating bridge since, physically speaking, it provides the best acoustics and the least energy dissipation.
I prepared the lattice using adirondack spruce. The bars were no more than 2 mm thick and 2.5 mm high. I wanted to use composite material like carbon
fiber or graphite, but I decided to maintain a wooden sound sort of speak.
The surface area of the lattice and the structure itself was tailored to this specific soundboard after extensive Chladni wave testing. This alone
took more than 2 weeks!!!
Anyway... I finally finished the oud after a month of work on the soundboard alone! It is a 7 course oud which can be changed easily to a 6 course oud
by simply changing the nut and the bridge (I changed the pegbox too)
This is simply the loudest oud I have ever played.. and I played literally hundreds of ouds.. but it is not just about loudness. This oud's sound is
simply stunning. Magnificent bases and perfect trebles and a sustain that simply don't compare to anything I played before.
I am currently building 2 more ouds with the same lattice bracing and 1 oud using the Kasha model which I doubt will work, but I am keeping my fingers
crossed. The good thing is I do not waste my time on the soundbox, this gives me ample time to concentrate on the soundboard only which is the heart
of the oud.
Anyway.. Here is a short sample of the oud sound .. The oud is tuned C-G-B-d-g-c.. Strings are Labella for the top 4 strings and Pyramid lute strings
for the lower 2 strings. The clip is shot using a simple Sony cyper shot with very simple sound quality and pick up. No alterations done to the sound
at all and I am playing.
http://ifile.it/63jd4fl
Tell me what you think...
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katakofka
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Hi Ali
what is lattice bracing?
can't download the file you posted. Please provide other way to download the file
thanks
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Alioud
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Hi Katakofka,
Click on Request Download Ticket on the top of the page and then you'll get the download file link..
Lattice bracing is a way of bracing the soundboard that was invented by a guitar builder in Australia called Smallman intended for the classical
guitar...
This is an example of lattice bracing:
http://www.nicholas-scott-guitars.co.uk/images/img-b.jpg
compared to standard oud bracing:
http://www.khalafoud.com/Personal/Jameel/Images/Oud_Construction/17...
Try downloading the file again... Click on REQUEST DOWNLOAD TICKET first.
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katakofka
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got it. Thanks
it seems that the treble notes are higher in volume as compared to the base note? or it's due to the sound quality?
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Alioud
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I am glad you did.
Actually, in real life, the notes are perfectly equal.. but I guess the small mic in the camera is a very simple mic.
Actually my friends think the bases are the ones that are a bit higher!
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katakofka
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could you post a better sound file? seems interesting yaaaaaa Ali
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fadel
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photo
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fadel
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photo
hi
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fadel
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photo
hi
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fadel
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photo
hi
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Alioud
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I will record something with a professional mic on Friday..
Thank you Fadel for posting the pictures... I am trying to upload your video playing the oud but the connection tonight is bad.. really bad.
Ali
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suz_i_dil
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Hello
thank you for sharing your work, congratulation for it and looking forward for listening to it on your next recording. Innovative and very well
made.
I am just wondering something about . Usually brassing cover all the face width, being also glued to side of the bowl.Out of the sound, this bring
also to the soundboard enough resistance to string tension, all over is surface.
Lattice brassing doesn't seems to cover the periphery of the soundboard, so doesn't this create a kind of weakness area on the periphery of the
soundboard, with the risk to see the wood sink or crack with time ?
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Edward Powell
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| Quote: | Originally posted by suz_i_dil
Hello
thank you for sharing your work, congratulation for it and looking forward for listening to it on your next recording. Innovative and very well
made.
I am just wondering something about . Usually brassing cover all the face width, being also glued to side of the bowl.Out of the sound, this bring
also to the soundboard enough resistance to string tension, all over is surface.
Lattice brassing doesn't seems to cover the periphery of the soundboard, so doesn't this create a kind of weakness area on the periphery of the
soundboard, with the risk to see the wood sink or crack with time ? |
"lattice" only refers to the network of cross patterns. Having the bracing not "meet" the sides is only one option - it is not a necessary
characteristic of lattice.
Lattice bracing is VERY strong. The reason why it is much thinner around the edges usually is to allow the entire soundboard to resonate all at once
and thereby create deep bass frequencies. The areas around the edges are of course naturally very stiff anyway - because they are near the stiff
edges. The closer you get to the center the more weak and vulnerable the wood becomes.
- - - -
This is VERY VERY interesting, and something I have also been experimenting with on my double neck fretless guitars...
Can you please post some fotos of your bracing?
...And what exactly was this WAVE testing you did which took 2 weeks??? This is very interesting for me... THANKS
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Reda Aouad
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This is simply an amazing experiment !! EXTREMELY interesting topic ! This is the first time I hear of such a bracing.. when was it invented? And why
hasn't it been applied on ouds so far? (correct me if wrong please)
Could you please post pictures of the bracings if you have ?
I cannot judge much on the sound quality from the recording.. but surely the sustain is amazing..
Will be waiting for a better recording 
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Edward Powell
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This topic is SO fascinating for me, that I am going to jump in again and offer some more of my OPINIONS.
I think that lattice bracing was developed in an effort to make classical guitars more loud. Actually there have been many many great new ideas for
new bracing patterns. Lattice is just one of them... and it's great success has lead to it's being used more and more.
The reality is that a guitar or an oud is an extremely 'energy inefficient' machine for producing sound. Something like only 5% or the strings energy
gets turned into sound (correct my figures please). So there is A LOT of room for improvement there - and lattice bracing is one of them - whereby
according to the physics involved it requires less wood brace mass to achieve the same amount of structural strength... therefore with a lighter
soundboard, the resonance will be greater.
Why hasn't it been applied to ouds.......?
Well, the traditional ladder bracing is a very good system also and it is tried and true, and is VERY easy to build.
In my opinion ouds as instrument have already reached their peak in terms of beautiful tone quality (I'm not talking about a $20 oud from Mohamed Ali
street!), but in general ouds lack volume and sustain.
Today's oud buying public demands more volume and a rich tone on the first day after purchase. When I was at Faruk's place he used to complain to me
that his customers were pressuring him SO much to produce louder ouds that he was forced to make the soundboard thinner and thinner and thinner -
something he doesn't like to do because he feels that the oud is too vulnerable as a result.
Faruk is now building special ouds with nomex double soundboards and balsa/carbonfiber bracing... and supposedly the volume has increased as a
result. ---maybe one of these days Faruk will try lattice - - - but I highly doubt it because Faruk tunes the braces. The one very cool thing about
ladder bracing is that it makes the tuning of individual braces very easy and straight-ahead.
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Reda Aouad
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Edward.. thank you so much for your valuable information
What do you mean by 'brace tuning'? How can one tune a brace? Or tune the soundboard to a specific frequency (or range) like Faruk does to give the
desired sound quality?
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Edward Powell
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No problem... it is one of my favorite topics.
The soundboard works like a stereo speaker. It resonates at certain pitches and thereby amplifying them. Energy from the strings transfers thru the
bridge in the form of vibrations at certain frequencies - these vibrations then enter the soundboard and "search" for "like" frequencies - and when
finding them, cause those areas to resonate and thereby amplify the sound of the strings.
So depending on what frequencies are "represented" on the soundboard (via the SB itself and the braces, and the "compound frequencies" which result
from the brace and the SB glued together), this will determine the 'colour' of the oud's tone. Ideally we want a balanced tone.
Faruk discovered a math formula whereby he can calculate this compound frequency once he has determined both the brace's frequency and the SB's
frequency at the point of gluing. He claims that he can pinpoint this specific pitch. So what he aims for is to "tune" these specific pitches together
against eachother and have them spread evenly across the audible spectrum - or to customise by accenting certain frequency regions.
The tuning can be done by tapping and listening for the fundamental. However Faruk has figured out a means to determine the basic "tuning
characteristic" of whole blocks of wood at a time... so he is not actually sitting there tapping each individual stick of wood (although originally
he did it this way). He method is very highly developed and sophisticated -- these guys don't waste much time. . . and their work is space age
accurate.
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SamirCanada
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Dear Alioud,
you asked whether or not this was the first lattice braced oud in world.
I have to let you know that it is not the first time it done.
I know that Saad Al-TAYYAR who is a musical instrument designer/ oud maker/ classical guitar maker etc... has develloped this idea roughly 10 years
ago.
Thanks for sharing your project and best of luck in the future.
I would also like to hear a better quality sound file.
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Alioud
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Thank you all for participating and this is turning out to be a very good discussion actually.
Thanks Edward for all the valuable information regarding lattice bracing. Indeed the sides of the soundboard where it meets the bowl is the strongest,
yet without struts it would be nearly impossible to fix it to the bowel and that itself would be a weakness. So, I used small pieces of kerfing and it
solved the problem well. I did not line the whole bowel with kerfing because I thought it might hinder the vibration of the soundboard. Maybe I am
wrong but it worked well. The center of the soundboard is 1.1 mm thick and is very very strong due to the structure of the lattice itself while the
sides are 1.5 mm (around 2 cm edge).
Despite the high tension of 7 strings the wood did not sink and there are no sings of stress cracks which is a relief. Currently, 6 strings tuned C to
c is a joke to this structure.
I would love to post photos of the bracing, but you would have to give me some time. I am trying to publish my work as a scientific paper because I
think I managed to increase the gain from an average of 23 db (The same as the nomex double soundboard) to 31 db. This is where Chladni wave testing
came into place. I will surly share the article and the pictures with you very very soon.
Basically, as you know, the soundboard does not all vibrate with each and every note. Certain areas of the soundboard respond to specific notes. Some
areas are "dead" spots. My thinking was, if I could find the dead spots and avoid the spots that vibrate with the desired notes, I could achieve the
most resonance without sacrificing the integrity of the soundboard. So, I decided to find the Chladni patterns of each note on this specific sounboard
using a large amplifier below the soundboard and a computer program to generate each note precisely. The resulting patterns look like this (I use tea
leaves to line the patterns)
http://rogerbourland.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/02/chladni-gu...
Now, the patterns are quite complex and I had to come up with a tailored bracing that would ensure structural integrity, yet does not "hold" the
soundboard from vibrating.
So, the idea that came to my mind is simple. If the lattice "cells" are all equal in size and surface area this would cross a lot of important spots
on the soundboard. So, I created a variable lattice in which cells have different sizes and different surface areas. The lattice itself might even
look like a random child play but it is not.
These wave patterns are also proving VERY useful in the traditional ladder bracing. The only problem is, it wouldn't work on a production scale
because it consumes time, but for a hand lutheir who strives for quality it is definitely worth every minute.
I personally do not believe that ANY maker can come up with a mathematical model to predict the behavior of a sum of soundboards and braces. Wood is a
living thing, and soundboards from the same tree almost never behave the same. So, in the case of Mr. Turunz I can tell you the key to his ouds is a
really thin soundboard with carbon fiber enforced bracing which requires less mass to achieve integrity. Less mass and a thin good quality soundboard
is his key, not a special mathematical invention.
I would like to disagree with you when you said that the Oud has reached a peak in sound quality. I think Oud making have not yet reached the hands of
serious science-oriented lutheirs. There is a tremendous room for improvement. This craft have been basically a family tradition in the Arab world and
Turkey and in this part of the world, science doesn't rule unfortunately. Trial and error do produce good results but it takes a very long time and it
seldom improves after finding the first "good" result.
Samir, I never heard of Mr. Al-Tayyar.. but I certainly salute him. I am glad that there are people out there who are willing to challenge the
traditions.
I will record a better sound sample of the oud and will certainly post it soon.
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Edward Powell
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Please educate us more about these Chladni patterns... I think this can be very useful for me... I am the kind of luthier you mention who spends 3
-6 months typically on one instrument.
THANKS!
Of course you are right that an oud's tone can also continue to improve! My implied point was that already today, when you have a top quality oud in
your hands, you must admit that it already sounds great. [but as you say, why not GREATER ?]
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corridoio
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Hi Edward
one link:
http://www.kwantlen.ca/science/physics/chladni.html
you can find also on youtube some examples
here a pdf with also some other links
Ale.
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katakofka
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Great Job Ali
Where do you publish such kind of work? which journal?
thanks
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farukturunz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Alioud
Maybe I am wrong but it worked well.
********
I personally do not believe that ANY maker can come up with a mathematical model to predict the behavior of a sum of soundboards and braces. Wood is a
living thing, and soundboards from the same tree almost never behave the same. So, in the case of Mr. Turunz I can tell you the key to his ouds is a
really thin soundboard with carbon fiber enforced bracing which requires less mass to achieve integrity. Less mass and a thin good quality soundboard
is his key, not a special mathematical invention.
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Many thanks to those contribute to this thread. It is quite interesting. Though I would not make a comment like alioud made while I have a "maybe" in
my vocabulary like in his sentence"Maybe I am wrong but it worked well."
From the very beginning I have had a doubt for getting involved in this thread but someone has exceeded stint.
I am sending a picture hereby (part of an analysis made with the ANSYS program) showing the dominant vibrating area by an excitation at the level of
the first overtone of A=440) This result was accessed with the specific frequency of the brace I glued to the space in front of the bridge. The
specific frequency of that brace was 375.19 Hz.
I am so sorry for having felt obliged to try to prove the accuracy of my method in such a "context"
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Edward Powell
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Faruk Usta!
Your ouds speak (sing, rather) for themselves...
PS- I spent almost everyday for 7 months in Faruk's workshop and watch him and his small team create probably 50 ouds or more. Each one was a
masterpiece.
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farukturunz
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Edward Powell
Faruk Usta!
Your ouds speak (sing, rather) for themselves...
PS- I spent almost everyday for 7 months in Faruk's workshop and watch him and his small team create probably 50 ouds or more. Each one was a
masterpiece. |
Hi Eddi! I am reading your posts about your very interesting experiences in Egypt.
Although my ouds speak for themselves, some has long started to aim my day by day growing commercial achievement throughout the Arabic market, trying
various ways and using all opportunities like here. Why someone says "So, in the case of Mr. Turunz I can tell you the key to his ouds is a really
thin soundboard with carbon fiber enforced bracing which requires less mass to achieve integrity. Less mass and a thin good quality soundboard is his
key, not a special mathematical invention." Whereas I had not involved to this discussion yet. It was enough for this gentleman to start an
assault to my name. Because the only existing factor hitherto had been my name only. Go on Mr. Alioud saying " Wood is a living thing, and soundboards from the same tree almost never behave the same." Saying only this and knowing
not much about the pertinent sciences and scientific applications, being only aware of the Chladni patterns one should measure his words! I prefer to
work using the scientific applications. Human being and all the living creatures are subject to scientific researches. Due to the fact that they are
"living" bodies, could scientific determinations -dealing with these- be put aside!
Here are other pictures of the ANSYS analysis. The soundboard thickness is 1,7mm.
The fomenter frequency hereby is 219.845 (almost 220--A3) which is the fundamental frequency of fifth string from down (Kaba Yegah)
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